Pre-Game Talk: The All-Purpose Mike Sullivan Thread - ALL COMMENTS AND COMPLAINTS HERE

[Ogrezilla]

I think its probably more accurate to say Sid has us back in a playoff spot. Not that Rutherford and Sullivan haven't made moves and changes that have benefited us, and for which they deserve credit, but Sid's been the best 5v5 player in the league since returning. And that's the main reason why we've been one of the top 10 teams in the league since he returned. Up to Rutherford and Sullivan to make the most of their good fortune here.

Our record with all three centres healthy is actually really good. I think some credit is still due. But yeah, obviously the guys carrying us deserve most of the credit.

 

[Peat]

Our record with all three centres healthy is actually really good. I think some credit is still due. But yeah, obviously the guys carrying us deserve most of the credit.

That's a fair point, but so is the obvious counterpoint that one of the purposes of a GM and Head Coach is to set up and organise the roster in such a way that the team can survive bad injury luck rather than spray liquid defecation all over the place like a drunk after a prune curry. Its great if things go swimmingly with everything in place, but missing pieces shouldn't wreck us like that.

 

[NMK11]

That's a fair point, but so is the obvious counterpoint that one of the purposes of a GM and Head Coach is to set up and organise the roster in such a way that the team can survive bad injury luck rather than spray liquid defecation all over the place like a drunk after a prune curry. Its great if things go swimmingly with everything in place, but missing pieces shouldn't wreck us like that.

Planning for bad injury luck should be a job requirement for any Pens GM.

 

[edog37]

The thing people keep attaching themselves to is that he won with 2 different styles, then failed last year and is failing again this year. Was it really his style or did he just take over a team that was stomped on by a terrible coach, caught fire at the right time and then again the following year. We were propelled by some legendary performances by Murray, Malkin, Crosby, and Kessel to win, there was absolutely no denying those players those 2 years.

A great coach adapts and evolves his system, I think the back 2 back cups is blinding a lot of people the same way it did when people realized, oh Bylsma actually does suck...

JR definitely needs to shoulder half the blame here. But JR is also not telling Sullivan to play people in certain situations and **** that up royally as well. The challenge was last year, the excuse was fatigue, but the underlying issues of him not evolving the system was there, it was mentioned by several people. I mentioned it in my *******-ish way as well, I hoped for the best in the summer, but man, people keep saying he should now get the benefit of the doubt as a challenge...

Well he showed his lack of creativity last year, this year he's showing it again. Some of the people failing in the bottom 6 are his doing, people keep wanting to say we are getting terrible performances out of people, but when you look at usage, some of these players have never looked good in that type of usage and the ones that have, are shafted even further.

Forget Sprong, this goes deeper than that. To have this guy propped up on 2 cup wins as his only reason to keep him on is beyond ridiculous. Like I said, we'll be 3, 4, maybe 5 years removed at this rate, from the cup with the core absolutely done and looking at trying to catch up to be a serious contender again in maybe 5yrs after that.

The window is now, being patient is why we wasted so many years from 2010-15.

And yet, many coaches go entire careers winning 0 Cups. Winning back to back in the salary cap era had never been done before. So since you can't name another measuring stick because it doesn't exist, then maybe you should re-think your entire premise. Sullivan is the best coach in the league right now. It's not even close.

 

[edog37]

I think AV might be a better fit than JQ for this team. Although either IMO would be better than Sully.

You've got to be kidding if you think Alain Vigneault is a good coach....

 

[edog37]

To all the Sullivan haters who want him fired:

1. Please describe his system and why it’s not working.

2. Please name a better candidate and the system they will run and why it will be more effective.

They won't because they only see the little picture. I'd like to know where these "fans" were the summer of 2017...were they calling for Sully's head then or just grateful the team did something no other team in salary cap era has done...

 

[EightyOne]

They won't because they only see the little picture. I'd like to know where these "fans" were the summer of 2017...were they calling for Sully's head then or just grateful the team did something no other team in salary cap era has done...

I recall quite a bit of criticism starting then.

They just kept winning.

But over reliance on lines that weren't working, bad d use masked by a hot goalie, and uneven leash lengths were common threads.

 

[Pancakes]

My stances on Sullivan:

1) Some lineup and roster decisions leave something to be desired. Sprong ought to have been given more of a chance, for example. At least early on so that we could see what we had in him. Hornqvist needs to be with Geno or Crosby more often than he has been. Etc. There are a lot of little things like these I disagree with Sullivan on.

2) His system is good and suited for the rosters he has had. He's had more trouble than ever playing it this year because of our weak d corps, but that's more on JR than Sullivan.

3) He's good at adjusting within playoff series, and that is not something to be understated given Bylsma's struggles there. For example, after getting caved in possession all series against Washington in 2017-18, he had the team play more on their toes and aggressive in Game 7, and had our d pinching extremely aggressively down the walls. The result? Washington wasn't ready for it, and we won a crucial game. Bylsma never seemed to do that type of coaching.

4) He has (generally speaking) been great with our young players. A lot of WBS guys turned into NHL players under him. That didn't happen under the old regime/coaching. But Sully brought out the best in guys like Rust, Guentzel, Murray, etc. He gave them a chance, and they took it and ran with it.

5) His leash shouldn't be too long. If we miss the playoffs this year, he should be in danger next year if we stumble again out of the gate. Even if we do make it, if we bow out early, I'd keep a careful eye on our early play next year. That said, 2 Cups buys him some leeway from me, and I'd keep a careful eye on what coaches are available should we ever want to replace him. Coach Q for example is the type of voice that would be worth bringing in. Replacing Sully with a more unproven coach like a Yeo or someone like that? Less desirable.

 

[Peat]

I recall quite a bit of criticism starting then.

They just kept winning.

But over reliance on lines that weren't working, bad d use masked by a hot goalie, and uneven leash lengths were common threads.

I remember a lot of exasperation with trying to restart HBK in particular. Fair exasperation too. Sully's lines have always baffled people. Its just no one cares when he's winning.

 

[Slaaapshuter]

Time to come clean.

I hate Mike Sullivan.

I realise I hate him because he coach the Penguins. Out of all the NHL coaches he's likely one of the top ones at the moment. Problem is he's an NHL coach, which means he's a meathead. But out of all the meatheads he's probably one of the better ones. I'm sure I would hate his replacement even more.

Just like the Pens "changed" the league after the 2016, is there a way to have an outside the box thinking when it comes to coaches? Is there anyone special outside the NHL country club? Is there anyone who thinks differently and who believes you don't need hard hustling plugs to win?

Would like to expand my thoughts but just came back from work and having some whiskey. Just thinking, no franchise is trying something different...

 

[ronduguayshair]

Time to come clean.

I hate Mike Sullivan.

I realise I hate him because he coach the Penguins. Out of all the NHL coaches he's likely one of the top ones at the moment. Problem is he's an NHL coach, which means he's a meathead. But out of all the meatheads he's probably one of the better ones. I'm sure I would hate his replacement even more.

Just like the Pens "changed" the league after the 2016, is there a way to have an outside the box thinking when it comes to coaches? Is there anyone special outside the NHL country club? Is there anyone who thinks differently and who believes you don't need hard hustling plugs to win?

Would like to expand my thoughts but just came back from work and having some whiskey. Just thinking, no franchise is trying something different...

See John Cooper.

 

[pistolpete11]

Has there ever been a coach in NHL history where fans didn't complain about the lines?

You can't please all of the people all of the time.

 

[EightyOne]

Has there ever been a coach in NHL history where fans didn't complain about the lines?

You can't please all of the people all of the time.

No. But not many teams are as stacked as this. To see it mismanaged is a little painful.

 

[Kiith Nabaal]

I always got the sense that coaching decisions were made collaboratively. The Penguins have a head coach, three assistant coaches (Martin, Recchi and Gonchar), a video coach and probably the analytics guy all trying to figure things out. What is the dynamic between Gonchar and Martin? Has Martin not been able to adjust to how people play against the Penguins? What does Gonchar do? For that matter, what does Recchi do?

Sullivan may need a little bit of an ego check, with all this "I don't like this guy get rid of him" thing, but I don't think he is as arrogant and stupid as some people make him out to be.

I think if the bottom six gets fixed and if Shultz plays well when he comes back, we will be a lot better. Of course, that is on Rutherford.

Lastly, since people point out Murray losing his father to being a possible source of bad play, I would also like to point out Sullivan lost his father less than two months ago.

 

[EightyOne]

Sure. If you want justify Sullivan by saying it's a system, then, Fire them all.

Sullivan isn't 23. I'm guessing Sully has a bit more life experience that makes coping with that easier.

 

[Kiith Nabaal]

I don't know what to say about "justify Sullivan". I don't think he himself has been bad enough to warrant firing.

If the Penguins fire Sullivan, I would think they promote one of Martin or Donatelli. I could be wrong and they go and hire Quenneville, but I don't know how many people would want a job with the Penguins if you get fired for the possibility of missing the playoffs. If the Penguins miss this year, and it really looks like they will miss next year, then yeah I could see them doing it.

I don't know how he would handle the loss of his dad, but it is also why I put it last.

 

[BHD]

You've got to be kidding if you think Alain Vigneault is a good coach....

Same. AV does the same things that piss people off with Sullivan.

 

[Shwag33]

I thought bylsma should have been fired after the philly series, maybe even before.

Sullivan deserves this year at least to hash things out. I don't agree with everything he's doing, but i'm not going bother getting worked up about it now.

 

[BHD]

Problem is he's an NHL coach, which means he's a meathead. But out of all the meatheads he's probably one of the better ones.

The thing is that the majority of NHL coaches have the same approach. They all have their guys who they think will get the job done and a system that they think will work. You could bring in AV or Coach Q, and we would be complaining a player getting too much ice time or a breakout that isn't working. I firmly believe that a coaching change shouldn't be made unless the new voice will get the players to refocus. That's what I want to see the most.

 

[3074326]

Same. AV does the same things that piss people off with Sullivan.

AV had a Tanner Glass obsession.

 

[BHD]

AV had a Tanner Glass obsession.

Along with Marc Staal and Dan Girardi. Same with Aaron Rome when he was in Vancouver. I guarantee you Johnson and Sheahan would be his latest "obsession" if he became coach here.

 

[The Old Master]

My stances on Sullivan:

1) Some lineup and roster decisions leave something to be desired. Sprong ought to have been given more of a chance, for example. At least early on so that we could see what we had in him. Hornqvist needs to be with Geno or Crosby more often than he has been. Etc. There are a lot of little things like these I disagree with Sullivan on.

2) His system is good and suited for the rosters he has had. He's had more trouble than ever playing it this year because of our weak d corps, but that's more on JR than Sullivan.

3) He's good at adjusting within playoff series, and that is not something to be understated given Bylsma's struggles there. For example, after getting caved in possession all series against Washington in 2017-18, he had the team play more on their toes and aggressive in Game 7, and had our d pinching extremely aggressively down the walls. The result? Washington wasn't ready for it, and we won a crucial game. Bylsma never seemed to do that type of coaching.

4) He has (generally speaking) been great with our young players. A lot of WBS guys turned into NHL players under him. That didn't happen under the old regime/coaching. But Sully brought out the best in guys like Rust, Guentzel, Murray, etc. He gave them a chance, and they took it and ran with it.

5) His leash shouldn't be too long. If we miss the playoffs this year, he should be in danger next year if we stumble again out of the gate. Even if we do make it, if we bow out early, I'd keep a careful eye on our early play next year. That said, 2 Cups buys him some leeway from me, and I'd keep a careful eye on what coaches are available should we ever want to replace him. Coach Q for example is the type of voice that would be worth bringing in. Replacing Sully with a more unproven coach like a Yeo or someone like that? Less desirable.

2)its the coaches job to adapt the system to the players he has.
3) if he had played the person that shall not be named in a game or two instead of injured players. we might of gotten the one or two goals we needed to beat the caps.
4)he was good with the players he coached in wbs……. others not so much.
don't get me wrong. I like sully and think he's a good coach. but maybe it's just his time to go.

 

[Pancakes]

2)its the coaches job to adapt the system to the players he has.
3) if he had played the person that shall not be named in a game or two instead of injured players. we might of gotten the one or two goals we needed to beat the caps.
4)he was good with the players he coached in wbs……. others not so much.
don't get me wrong. I like sully and think he's a good coach. but maybe it's just his time to go.

2) Ok, but when you're used to coaching a roster to play a certain way and the GM suddenly decides to give you a roster unsuited for that style, it's a little puzzling.

3) Yes Daniel Sprong, he of practically zero regular season experience and even less playoff experience would have been the difference in a playoff series against the eventual Stanley Cup champs. I sincerely doubt that. He hasn't even proven he can play effectively in the regular season yet let alone playoff hockey when the stakes are highest.

4) What others? The only other actual notable WBS prospect who Sullivan has not managed well is Sprong.

 

[vodeni]

AV had a Tanner Glass obsession.

that one is for ages, anyone who advocates to replace Sully with f..... AV should be banned from any hockey discussion foreeeever

 

[AuroraBorealis]

that one is for ages, anyone who advocates to replace Sully with f..... AV should be banned from any hockey discussion foreeeever

AV's got a pretty solid record as a coach. I'm not saying I want the change, but Vigneault doesn't deserve half the ridiculing he gets from people.

Since he returned to coach in the NHL in 2006-07 (12 seasons):
> 7 division titles.
> 3 President's trophies
> 10 playoff appearances (2 SCF, Conf Finals, Round 2 X4)

Just because he hasn't won a Cup doesn't make him shit. He is a fine defensive coach. Teams like St Louis, Chicago and L.A. were fools to pass on him, and are now paying the price.