Pre-Game Talk: The All-Purpose Mike Sullivan Thread - ALL COMMENTS AND COMPLAINTS HERE

[SHOOTANDSCORE]

Just what exactly is he insinuating about us Irish folks? He needs to check his bigotry.

 

[Ryder71]

Just what exactly is he insinuating about us Irish folks? He needs to check his bigotry.

Sullys attitude has gotten worse over time. He's more emboldened now, and that's a recipe for disaster. The good news is he's not gonna win a war against Geno. He won some battles against others, but that's one he thankfully won't win.

 

[vodeni]

Sullys attitude has gotten worse over time. He's more emboldened now, and that's a recipe for disaster. The good news is he's not gonna win a war against Geno. He won some battles against others, but that's one he thankfully won't win.

there is no war against geno.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

So your inside sources are suggesting Malkin and Kessel are frustrated with eating burnt toast?

It's because Crosby is a dick, hoarding the peanut butter and jam for his pre game sandwich.

 

[EightyOne]

Does anyone else find it hilarious that only the people who hate Sullivan are taking this story about what Dupuis said seriously? I'm not going to pretend I'm the only person who notices that, right?

I often play a devil's advocate and chicken little here.

I think Sullivan should have this team doing better.

I wouldn't care if he were fired though. I guess that makes me a Sullivan hater, too?

No idea who does better as a coach here, so, by default he's the best coach available, though.

But I'm also certain Dupuis didn't make shit up.

 

[Peat]

Really late to the party but...

Malkin didn't quit on Mike freaking Johnson but so many of you are certain he has quit on Sully, never mind he was playing sublime hockey under that same coach with the same teammates except for Hagelin less than two months ago?!? If he misses Hagelin that much (why exactly?) he should be pissed at JR, no Sully.

Malkin and Kessel's history here with and without Hagelin is that they are stellar with him and pretty crap without. Both guys in general love what he brings on the ice. I worried about it at the time and I see no reason to stop worrying now. Saying same teammates except for Hagelin is like saying same car except for the engine.

At the time of the deal, we pretty much all agreed with JR. 3C needed to be reinforced.

Okay, we didn't think it would cost us Cole though.

I - and a few others - didn't. I thought that we could get a good solution for not much less and I also wondered about the fit. I'm surprised at how its gone but I was never comfortable with the move, particularly at the cost.

These guys are not the best and brightest.

He probably just thought he had a good story to bring back to his new job and didn't think if the impact it could have in Pittsburgh.

If one guy didn't send this to DK, it would not have. It was ONE sentence. Literally.

I think realistically any media guy has got to assume that anything controversial he says will find its way back to those who notice sooner or later - and that if it didn't, he'd be very lucky. If it hadn't been some guy to DK, it would have been some guy to Mackey, or Yohe, or maybe some guy at the network pushes it for more publicity...

... or even just a media monitoring service picking up the clip and forwarding it to the org's PR department. I assume that in America, pretty much every word said about the org in the mainstream media makes it back to the PR people sooner or later.

Still, chalk this one up to experience. Its really not a big deal.

When did I “cling” to any of his words? I just put this out there for people to debate...he’s not a dumbass, he has a point, and feel free to disagree with it, but to reject a point just because of who’s saying it is more dumb...

You say dumb, I say smart use of time. And I feel very happy outright dismissing the opinion of anyone who thinks the 16-17 Pens weren't well coached because of possession stats and is basing their argument around that, in much the same way that I'm not taking medical advice from someone who thinks that the best way to cure a fever is to cut the patient to release the hot sanguine humours.

Basically, great players make great coaches...Sully’s been average the last couple years and it’s on him to make it work...

Something that a lot of people have pointed to, both in the wake of the cups and now, is that the big difference between the Bylsma teams and the Sullivan teams wasn't that the top end players were hugely wonderfully better, but that the depth was better. The difference between Matt Cullen racking up 30 points a season (thanks to playing up the line up at times but still) and Adams being lucky to get 10 is huge. Or the difference between Matt Cullen racking up 30 points and Matt Cullen starting the season at a 10 point pace.

Great players give coaches a chance to show their greatness, but they don't seal the deal unless they get the depth to perform. Point in case - look at how our season has transformed since Sid came back. Sure, it was starting to turn before then, but we were 28th in the league by points prior to then and have been 5th based on form after. We've had 9 goals from Sheahan, Grant, Cullen and Dea combined in that period. In the 18 games preceding, those players had 3 goals. The depth makes a difference. Great coaches are those that get the depth to outplay themselves as well as getting that last 10% from the starts.

And two years ago to the day, we were third in the league with great performances from most of our depth to go with three scorers in the top 10 - despite coming off a SC hangover. Saying that Sully has been average the last couple of years is not a good argument.

I often play a devil's advocate and chicken little here.

I think Sullivan should have this team doing better.

I wouldn't care if he were fired though. I guess that makes me a Sullivan hater, too?

No idea who does better as a coach here, so, by default he's the best coach available, though.

But I'm also certain Dupuis didn't make **** up.

I doubt he made anything up, the issue is to what extent its big news or just another day at the office during a rough patch.

 

[Icarium]

Malkin and Kessel's history here with and without Hagelin is that they are stellar with him and pretty crap without.

This is simply not true, they were hit and miss with Hagelin on that line. Great for stretches of few games then back to not producing and being a defensive liability. And yes, Hagelin brings a lot of intangibles but 3 points in 16 games with Geno playing out of his mind for most of that period is just unbelievably bad. I find it very hard to believe that Geno and Phil miss him that much, especially the former who didn't revolt even when Neal departed and has dealt with a carousel of wingers for his entire career. If he had played anywhere near 2016 Hagelin, maybe I could believe it but he didn't.

 

[Peat]

This is simply not true, they were hit and miss with Hagelin on that line. Great for stretches of few games then back to not producing and being a defensive liability. And yes, Hagelin brings a lot of intangibles but 3 points in 16 games with Geno playing out of his mind for most of that period is just unbelievably bad. I find it very hard to believe that Geno and Phil miss him that much, especially the former who didn't revolt even when Neal departed and has dealt with a carousel of wingers for his entire career. If he had played anywhere near 2016 Hagelin, maybe I could believe it but he didn't.

It is true. Sure, there's some ups without him and some downs without him, but prior to this season they were a line that nearly outscored the opposition 2 to 1 with him and a line that moderately outscored opposition without. Fast forwards to this season, they have a negative goal share without him and a 60% GF% with him. I honestly couldn't care less how many points Hagelin had or how many goals he missed when that's the difference.

This isn't about revolting or going on strike, its about simply not being able to play as well when missing the seemingly perfect compliment to their line. I think only one other player has made as big a difference to Geno and Phil's combined success as Hags, and that's Justin Schultz...

 

[Icarium]

Fast forwards to this season, they have a negative goal share without him and a 60% GF% with him. I honestly couldn't care less how many points Hagelin had or how many goals he missed when that's the difference.

I couldn't care less about GF% when I could see perfectly well that Hagelin was playing terrible hockey except for a handful of games. Even the PK is better without him now, despite all expectations. Also, Malkin's slump began before Hagelin's departure. If Malkin were playing anywhere near his level from the start of the season only for ZAR or whoever replaced Hagelin to miss a few glorious chances and ruin the cycle all the time, then yes, a lack of Hagelin would be a good explanation but he isn't. He is making mistakes on the simplest of plays, he barely tries in defence, etc. At least prior to this week, that is, he was much better against the Ducks and Caps. His line still can't produce but Hagelin and his three points probably wouldn't have made much difference to that.

 

[Peat]

I couldn't care less about GF% when I could see perfectly well that Hagelin was playing terrible hockey except for a handful of games. Even the PK is better without him now, despite all expectations. Also, Malkin's slump began before Hagelin's departure. If Malkin were playing anywhere near his level from the start of the season only for ZAR or whoever replaced Hagelin to miss a few glorious chances and ruin the cycle all the time, then yes, a lack of Hagelin would be a good explanation but he isn't. He is making mistakes on the simplest of plays, he barely tries in defence, etc. At least prior to this week, that is, he was much better against the Ducks and Caps. His line still can't produce but Hagelin and his three points probably wouldn't have made much difference to that.

*shrugs* If you don't think Hagelin continually (i.e. from the day he arrived to the day he left) making a massive positive difference to the results obtained from a Malkin-Kessel line, or either in isolation (particularly, is something to care about then fair enough. But that's what happened. Personally I think its worth asking why our worst individual producer had such a big impact and whether the reasons he had such an impact are things we can get from our roster as it currently is.

And while I don't think Malkin's current slump should be placed solely on Hagelin leaving, the fact that his best linemate of the Sullivan era is no longer here probably isn't helping him recover.

 

[Icarium]

And while I don't think Malkin's current slump should be placed solely on Hagelin leaving, the fact that his best linemate of the Sullivan era is no longer here probably isn't helping him recover.

Best linemate of the Sullivan era? I know Kessel is often a bit invisible om the ice but come on.

And I never said that Hagelin being around couldn't possibly help Geno get over the slump, I was refuting the idea that he has quit on the coach because of Hagelin's departure. Not least because getting Sullivan fired wouldn't bring Hagelin back anyway.

 

[Peat]

Best linemate of the Sullivan era? I know Kessel is often a bit invisible om the ice but come on.

And I never said that Hagelin being around couldn't possibly help Geno get over the slump, I was refuting the idea that he has quit on the coach because of Hagelin's departure. Not least because getting Sullivan fired wouldn't bring Hagelin back anyway.

I agree that I don't think Geno has quit due to Hagelin getting traded - I was more piggybacking on you mentioning to make the point that it really shouldn't be a surprise if Hagelin no longer being here affects on ice performance.

Because, yes, the Pens have been more successful when Geno has been with Hagelin than he has been with Kessel - statistically speaking at least. Which also agrees with my eye test tbh - Geno regularly looked better with Hagelin than with Kessel. Kessel's a better player, but not a better linemate.

 

[Andy99]

I agree that I don't think Geno has quit due to Hagelin getting traded - I was more piggybacking on you mentioning to make the point that it really shouldn't be a surprise if Hagelin no longer being here affects on ice performance.

Because, yes, the Pens have been more successful when Geno has been with Hagelin than he has been with Kessel - statistically speaking at least. Which also agrees with my eye test tbh - Geno regularly looked better with Hagelin than with Kessel. Kessel's a better player, but not a better linemate.

A reason I think Sully should give Rust a spin with Geno...he’s not exactly Hags but he’s our best facsimile.....

 

[Tasty Biscuits]

A reason I think Sully should give Rust a spin with Geno...he’s not exactly Hags but he’s our best facsimile.....

Now that Rust has found his game, absolutely put him there once Simon is back to be put with Sid.

 

[Peat]

A reason I think Sully should give Rust a spin with Geno...he’s not exactly Hags but he’s our best facsimile.....

Who would you put with them?

 

[Andy99]

Who would you put with them?

I’d probably do Sheahan- G- Rust and put Phil with Sid... or if Phil has to be with G then use Rust at LW

 

[EliteGoaltending]

Seriously one of the best things I've heard. Dupers... starting drama about a coach. All while he was coached by Dan ****ing Bylsma. Good lord. Classic stuff right there. Who is next to speak out? Craig Adams? What a load of ****.

As people already mentioned. There is massive frustration and I said 2 million times the hardest part of Sully's coaching career is when he has to deal with adversity of his own and keep the team invested/on track. He's losing that battle this year. He's not listening to what Bowman said to him. He's starting to lose the team and I don't need Pascal ****ing Dupuis to tell me that. It's obvious. But that isn't all on Sully and it's laughable to put that all on him.

Just like the players, Sully needs to pick it up. Not every player is Sidney Crosby, the perfect hockey player. You have to be creative with the Phil Kessels of the world. You have to be creative with the Genos of the world. They are god-like talented when it comes to hockey skills and it's a coach's responsibility to be creative in pushing a button yet knowing when to give them slack.

They all need to get better. JR, Sully, and the players. I cut this pie of blame equally.

Sullivan does everything to help Sid/his line when he/the line doesn't do well or in a slump. He'll be moving players out of this line who are not performing or moving players to this line who are performing well.

Much different story with Geno. He hundicuffs him more than helping him out. Kessel is stil the only skilled player Malkin had on his line for any substantial period of time under Sullivan.

 

[EliteGoaltending]

Literally no coach has ever liked Kessel, as Kessel has never ever played by standards other than his own. He’s a non story, he’ll play hard in the playoffs (unless he’s playing hurt) and he’ll be the softest player in the league in the regular season.

Strange to see no rant from @Mr Jiggyfly after this comment

 

[Peat]

I’d probably do Sheahan- G- Rust and put Phil with Sid... or if Phil has to be with G then use Rust at LW

Sheahan-G-Rust could be mad genius... or just mad. Not sure I'm keen on RMK, but it is crying out to be tried (but maybe after giving Malkin and Kessel a bit of time away from each other). Pearson or Brassard were more my thoughts, but any of them could work.

 

[Andy99]

Sheahan-G-Rust could be mad genius... or just mad. Not sure I'm keen on RMK, but it is crying out to be tried (but maybe after giving Malkin and Kessel a bit of time away from each other). Pearson or Brassard were more my thoughts, but any of them could work.

Sheahan played really well against the Caps..if he could be that engaged every week, that line could work....

 

[EliteGoaltending]

So if you're stuck with bad defenders who can't pass, why aren't you stressing that your forwards need to get out and open for quick one touch passes?

Why aren't the wingers told to get open on the half boards and someone else build speed through center ice?

You know how many worse teams look better than the Pens? Why is this? Are their moronic non-puck moving defensemen just conveniently less moronic? Or are they being coached around their deficiencies?

It seems like people who want Sullivan out are mostly because he's not making the best of this flawed roster. I can't really disagree with that.

If you think he's doing the best he can as a coach, then the only other course is to trade everyone away because they clearly cannot play hockey correctly.

All the unnecessary drama aside (from Dupuis' comments) and even lineup decisions aside, I don't understand how Sullivan apologists can defend product on the ice.

I've been out of the loop and haven't seen bunch of games, but seems like Pens are playing the same. Barely putting wins together here and there and have only one threating line and they don't move the puck efficiently at all.

Yes it's a flawed roster, but even this roster could/should do much better. Plus better roster/lineup decisions could be made (like what was/is a downside of playing Dea and Riikola, as of recently).

It started with Cole and then went to Sprong. He’s been beating on Phil for a while. Sully’s ego after winning two cups has moved him from motivator and teacher to tyrant and do as I say.

Like Bylsma previously, Sully is blinded by his success and believes the team needs to get to their game and play his system. He’s being too stubborn with modifying his strategy based on Schultz being injured, defensemen not skilled enough to play as aggressive as he wants, and other players that don’t fit his demands from the forwards.

Letang normally plays with Crosby on the ice while Geno and Kessel are dealing with the **** show of Maatta and others who are in over their head in this system.

Lots of frustration to go around. Sully’s stubbornness is what led to everyone’s favorite 4th liner getting traded.

The more the Pens lose the worse Sully is going to become. He doesn’t think he’s the issue or that he needs to modify his system.

Agree with all. And bolded is a big problem with the coaching right now, all the drama aside.

 

[Tom Hanks]

Sheahan played really well against the Caps..if he could be that engaged every week, that line could work....

You can’t rely on Sheahan to play like that all the time. Even when he produced well here he was still a timid player. It’s not someone you want to have playing high up in the playoffs.

 

[NMK11]

Rust-Geno-Horny once that top line cools off. It's this year's version of the HGH line that rejuvenated Geno last year.

And at this point, I'm with the Sully quote in the article someone posted in another thread. Brassard and Kessel need to figure it out. They're too good to be playing together against other team's depth and look that invisible.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Strange to see no rant from @Mr Jiggyfly after this comment

How many times does someone have to chant “Bad Malkin” while looking in a mirror, before you appear?

Asking for a... friend.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

How many times does someone have to chant “Bad Malkin” while looking in a mirror, before you appear?

Asking for a... friend.

The funny part is the contention that the club always caters to Sid and not Geno, when Sullivan just recently removed Kessel from Sid's line when it was hot and put him with Geno in order to get Malkin going.