The All Purpose "Jack Johnson Sucks" Thread

[Empoleon8771]

Difference is we can point to games that Kessel and Sully won us. Please provide me an example of JJ doing anything but breaking even at any point this season.

But we can also point to games that they lost us. If Sullivan would have done a good job coaching this year, they would be way higher in the standings. If Kessel wouldn't have turned into a complete mess defensively, they'd have at least a few more wins. If they'd be getting more consistent performances out of Murray and DeSmith, they'd have a bunch more wins.

You think way too highly of the rest of the team. This team is not being sabotaged by 1 player, it's being sabotaged by a ton of bad problems, a GM who continues to make bad gambles and a coach that is doing a horrendous job.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

At least we all agree that JJ is a huge problem, and we're not going to go anywhere this year without addressing that huge problem.

 

[Gurglesons]

But we can also point to games that they lost us. If Sullivan would have done a good job coaching this year, they would be way higher in the standings. If Kessel wouldn't have turned into a complete mess defensively, they'd have at least a few more wins. If they'd be getting more consistent performances out of Murray and DeSmith, they'd have a bunch more wins.

You think way too highly of the rest of the team. This team is not being sabotaged by 1 player, it's being sabotaged by a ton of bad problems, a GM who continues to make bad gambles and a coach that is doing a horrendous job.

Not really sure how Sullivan is doing a horrendous job. Also, odd to hear from you since you were on my side with Sprong so I’m curious what you think he is doing wrong.

Kessel I’m onboard with, but Kessel also single handidly wins us games. I’ll criticize JR more for continuing to double down on him and Maatta when they clearly have no fit on this team.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Not really sure how Sullivan is doing a horrendous job. Also, odd to hear from you since you were on my side with Sprong so I’m curious what you think he is doing wrong.

Kessel I’m onboard with, but Kessel also single handidly wins us games. I’ll criticize JR more for continuing to double down on him and Maatta when they clearly have no fit on this team.

I can give you a couple of things:

1. Refusing to change up the top PP unit after it has been bleeding goals against, and refusing to reward the 2nd PP unit as it has been really good.
2. Playing Johnson in a top-4 role behind Malkin even though he has been bad.
3. Not punishing careless play by guys like Kessel and Malkin at ES (which relates to point 1)
4. Changing his lines all of the time if they don't immediately work, which is horrible for creating any kind of chemistry
5. Only holding a couple of players accountable while turning a blind eye to other players (scratching Pearson for being invisible but not doing anything to Hornqvist)

I think he was right with his usage on Sprong, but he has done a really bad job this year. He's not doing anything to minimize the problems coming from the players. I'm not going to say "he's playing ZAR over Blueger, so he's doing horrible!". I think he's just not doing anything to address the blatant problems with this team, which earns him a F in my eyes.

Jack Johnson is bad and has only done positive things for the Penguins in maybe a couple of games. The problem is that he alone isn't tanking this team. If Kessel wouldn't be such a problem this year, they'd be comfortably in a playoff spot. Had Malkin not gone on that cold streak, they'd be comfortably in a playoff spot. Had Sullivan made better lineup/usage decisions, maybe they'd be higher in the standings. Had Murray and DeSmith not gone on cold streaks in part of this year, they'd be comfortably in a playoff spot. Johnson may have provided way less good than all of those other things, but he hasn't provided enough bad to sink this team.

 

[Gurglesons]

I can give you a couple of things:

1. Refusing to change up the top PP unit after it has been bleeding goals against, and refusing to reward the 2nd PP unit as it has been really good.
2. Playing Johnson in a top-4 role behind Malkin even though he has been bad.
3. Not punishing careless play by guys like Kessel and Malkin at ES (which relates to point 1)
4. Changing his lines all of the time if they don't immediately work, which is horrible for creating any kind of chemistry
5. Only holding a couple of players accountable while turning a blind eye to other players (scratching Pearson for being invisible but not doing anything to Hornqvist)

I think he was right with his usage on Sprong, but he has done a really bad job this year. He's not doing anything to minimize the problems coming from the players. I'm not going to say "he's playing ZAR over Blueger, so he's doing horrible!". I think he's just not doing anything to address the blatant problems with this team, which earns him a F in my eyes.

Jack Johnson is bad and has only done positive things for the Penguins in maybe a couple of games. The problem is that he alone isn't tanking this team. If Kessel wouldn't be such a problem this year, they'd be comfortably in a playoff spot. Had Malkin not gone on that cold streak, they'd be comfortably in a playoff spot. Had Sullivan made better lineup/usage decisions, maybe they'd be higher in the standings. Had Murray and DeSmith not gone on cold streaks in part of this year, they'd be comfortably in a playoff spot. Johnson may have provided way less good than all of those other things, but he hasn't provided enough bad to sink this team.

I don’t think any coach in the league is punishing Malkin or Kessel. Especially one like Sully that preaches personal accountability.

I think saying the number one powerplay and those types of players should be punish is just honestly a complaint to complain.

No team in the league is sitting 7 mil or 10 mil dollar players. Just doesn’t happen and honestly I think Sullivan’s likely KILLING those two behind the scenes. He’s just a smart enough coach to not do it to the media.

Also I like how Sully is supposed to not play JJ’s pride acquisition from the summer. THAT is the issue with JJ his term and salary mean he is a top four fixture much like Scuderi’s did.

That is why I was so against the deal. But everyonelike you told me oh well they can scratch
Him or trade him.

 

[DegenX]

I can give you a couple of things:

1. Refusing to change up the top PP unit after it has been bleeding goals against, and refusing to reward the 2nd PP unit as it has been really good.
2. Playing Johnson in a top-4 role behind Malkin even though he has been bad.
3. Not punishing careless play by guys like Kessel and Malkin at ES (which relates to point 1)
4. Changing his lines all of the time if they don't immediately work, which is horrible for creating any kind of chemistry
5. Only holding a couple of players accountable while turning a blind eye to other players (scratching Pearson for being invisible but not doing anything to Hornqvist)

I think he was right with his usage on Sprong, but he has done a really bad job this year. He's not doing anything to minimize the problems coming from the players. I'm not going to say "he's playing ZAR over Blueger, so he's doing horrible!". I think he's just not doing anything to address the blatant problems with this team, which earns him a F in my eyes.

Jack Johnson is bad and has only done positive things for the Penguins in maybe a couple of games. The problem is that he alone isn't tanking this team. If Kessel wouldn't be such a problem this year, they'd be comfortably in a playoff spot. Had Malkin not gone on that cold streak, they'd be comfortably in a playoff spot. Had Sullivan made better lineup/usage decisions, maybe they'd be higher in the standings. Had Murray and DeSmith not gone on cold streaks in part of this year, they'd be comfortably in a playoff spot. Johnson may have provided way less good than all of those other things, but he hasn't provided enough bad to sink this team.

I would say point 2 relates to point 3. Seriously though, I don't really think he has any choice but to play JJ with Geno, other than to bench him. The team needs at least one working line, and while the narrative has always been Geno is a defensive black hole, his line has been the least impacted by dragging JJ around. That's not to say it's been helpful to Geno in any way. That's a big part of why Geno hasn't been having the best season. Arm chair psychoanalysis would suggest it might also be part of why Geno is so frustrated this season.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I don’t think any coach in the league is punishing Malkin or Kessel. Especially one like Sully that preaches personal accountability.

I think saying the number one powerplay and those types of players should be punish is just honestly a complaint to complain.

No team in the league is sitting 7 mil or 10 mil dollar players. Just doesn’t happen and honestly I think Sullivan’s likely KILLING those two behind the scenes. He’s just a smart enough coach to not do it to the media.

Are you kidding? The top powerplay unit has given up 11 shorthanded goals this year. 11! And you think pointing out Sullivan is doing a terrible job with dealing with those problems a "complaint to complain"? I'm not talking about scratching them, I'm talking about limiting their ice time until they clean up their game. If Sullivan won't do it to Malkin, I get it. If he won't do it to Kessel, he's spineless and a horrible coach.

He's not doing a good job this year at all. He's only preaching accountability for a few players, and he's turning a blind eye to the biggest problems on this team. He has done nothing to address the shorthanded goals against with that top PP unit, yet you seriously think criticizing him for that is "complaining to complain"?

 

[Peat]

Malkin's done more than any other player to soften Johnson's impact. It sucks, particularly if you're Geno, but I don't see a lot of reasons to be annoyed at the coach for doing so.

I've never brought into the "One person cost us" thing for a team game but Johnson is probably forerunner for "Single highest level of responsibility among players".

 

[Empoleon8771]

I would say point 2 relates to point 3. Seriously though, I don't really think he has any choice but to play JJ with Geno, other than to bench him. The team needs at least one working line, and while the narrative has always been Geno is a defensive black hole, his line has been the least impacted by dragging JJ around. That's not to say it's been helpful to Geno in any way. That's a big part of why Geno hasn't been having the best season. Arm chair psychoanalysis would suggest it might also be part of why Geno is so frustrated this season.

I think it explains his bad run of production, but it doesn't explain him not looking good. Especially not with Kessel, who has been downright horrendous for a lot of this year. Johnson has definitely made it worse, but those guys own their own struggles because they have had stretches of not playing well this year, especially Kessel. Sullivan completely deserves criticism for how he has used Johnson and how he hasn't dealt with the problems of Kessel (and Malkin to a lesser extent).

Sullivan can play Johnson on the bottom pair, throw him out with line 3 and just murder him with defensive minutes. He's not doing that though, because he somehow thinks that Maatta-Riikola is more suited for that role.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Also I like how Sully is supposed to not play JJ’s pride acquisition from the summer. THAT is the issue with JJ his term and salary mean he is a top four fixture much like Scuderi’s did.

That is why I was so against the deal. But everyonelike you told me oh well they can scratch
Him or trade him.

Or he can, you know, not play him in a top-4 role behind Evgeni Malkin. Why are the only options "scratch him" or "continue doing what he has done". Why isn't "make better realistic decisions" a viable alternative? You can take Kessel off the top powerplay or bump his icetime down in the bottom-6 until he cleans up his turnovers. You can use Johnson for only like 15 minutes a night on the bottom pair, with a Maatta-Riikola pair (earlier in the year) or a Pettersson-Schultz pair getting ice time with Malkin. You can give your 2nd PP unit an extra 15 seconds on a powerplay if they're having a nice run.

Malkin's done more than any other player to soften Johnson's impact. It sucks, particularly if you're Geno, but I don't see a lot of reasons to be annoyed at the coach for doing so.

I've never brought into the "One person cost us" thing for a team game but Johnson is probably forerunner for "Single highest level of responsibility among players".

Johnson is the most responsible, but the problem I have with saying he is the only problem is that it pretends that this team doesn't have glaring flaws right now outside of Johnson. It's delusional about the rest of the team at best. This team has very serious flaws and are in threat of missing the playoffs for a ton of reasons. Johnson being bad is one of those reasons, but he's not the only reason.

 

[Gurglesons]

Are you kidding? The top powerplay unit has given up 11 shorthanded goals this year. 11! And you think pointing out Sullivan is doing a terrible job with dealing with those problems a "complaint to complain"? I'm not talking about scratching them, I'm talking about limiting their ice time until they clean up their game. If Sullivan won't do it to Malkin, I get it. If he won't do it to Kessel, he's spineless and a horrible coach.

He's not doing a good job this year at all. He's only preaching accountability for a few players, and he's turning a blind eye to the biggest problems on this team. He has done nothing to address the shorthanded goals against with that top PP unit, yet you seriously think criticizing him for that is "complaining to complain"?

Yes. I don’t really get people around here. They all were up in arms about Sully treating Kessel badly and now he should pull Kessel and Malkin off the top powerplay to prove a point.

This team needs to figure it out. Punishing Malkin / Kessel won’t do anything but likely piss them off.

 

[Gurglesons]

Or he can, you know, not play him in a top-4 role behind Evgeni Malkin. Why are the only options "scratch him" or "continue doing what he has done". Why isn't "make better realistic decisions" a viable alternative? You can take Kessel off the top powerplay or bump his icetime down in the bottom-6 until he cleans up his turnovers. You can use Johnson for only like 15 minutes a night on the bottom pair, with a Maatta-Riikola pair (earlier in the year) or a Pettersson-Schultz pair getting ice time with Malkin. You can give your 2nd PP unit an extra 15 seconds on a powerplay if they're having a nice run.



Johnson is the most responsible, but the problem I have with saying he is the only problem is that it pretends that this team doesn't have glaring flaws right now outside of Johnson. It's delusional about the rest of the team at best. This team has very serious flaws and are in threat of missing the playoffs for a ton of reasons. Johnson being bad is one of those reasons, but he's not the only reason.

Never said he is the only reason.

But he is the reason we miss the playoffs if we do.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Yes. I don’t really get people around here. They all were up in arms about Sully treating Kessel badly and now he should pull Kessel and Malkin off the top powerplay to prove a point.

This team needs to figure it out. Punishing Malkin / Kessel won’t do anything but likely piss them off.

I don't even know what you're referring to here. Saying that the Penguins should treat Kessel with accountability for his play is such a bad thing to argue against.

I honestly just don't get your angle here. There are glaring problems on this team. Sullivan is intentionally doing nothing about them, when he can be doing stuff about them. How is that "complaining to complain"? Sullivan isn't doing a good job this year and isn't making decisions he has to make. He doesn't have to play Johnson in a top-4 role behind Malkin, he's choosing to do that. He doesn't have to continue to play Kessel on the top PP unit, he can put him on the 2nd unit or split up the 2 units to try to settle down everyone. He doesn't have to pull the plug on a lineup 10 minutes into a game if he doesn't like what he sees. You're excusing his horrible job this year as just "complaining to complain" and it makes no sense.

 

[Andy99]

Malkin's done more than any other player to soften Johnson's impact. It sucks, particularly if you're Geno, but I don't see a lot of reasons to be annoyed at the coach for doing so.

I've never brought into the "One person cost us" thing for a team game but Johnson is probably forerunner for "Single highest level of responsibility among players".

The coach CAN sit JJ...he sat Reaves...just because JR brought him in doesn’t mean he has to play him or play him as many minutes as he is...like with any relationship, you can be right and lose or you can win...they need to stop trying to be “right” about JJ and do what’s best for the team on the ice...

 

[Empoleon8771]

Never said he is the only reason.

But he is the reason we miss the playoffs if we do.

"I never said he is the only reason, but he is the only reason we miss the playoffs if we do"

The coach CAN sit JJ...he sat Reaves...just because JR brought him in doesn’t mean he has to play him or play him as many minutes as he is...like with any relationship, you can be right and lose or you can win...they need to stop trying to be “right” about JJ and do what’s best for the team on the ice...

It's not even about scratching him either, he can use him better if he has to be in the lineup. Just like with Kessel, if Sullivan can't scratch him, he can still do things to address the problems on the team. There are more options than the 2 extremes of "scratch him" and "do nothing". Sullivan doing nothing is bad coaching, I honestly have no clue how you can argue otherwise.

 

[Peat]

The coach CAN sit JJ...he sat Reaves...just because JR brought him in doesn’t mean he has to play him or play him as many minutes as he is...like with any relationship, you can be right and lose or you can win...they need to stop trying to be “right” about JJ and do what’s best for the team on the ice...

My point was more that if he's on the ice, its usually the best place, but okay, fair.

Although I'm not entirely confident that the social/power dynamics make it as easy as sitting Reaves. But then, not confident that Sully doesn't rate Johnsone ither.

 

[DegenX]

I think it explains his bad run of production, but it doesn't explain him not looking good. Especially not with Kessel, who has been downright horrendous for a lot of this year. Johnson has definitely made it worse, but those guys own their own struggles because they have had stretches of not playing well this year, especially Kessel. Sullivan completely deserves criticism for how he has used Johnson and how he hasn't dealt with the problems of Kessel (and Malkin to a lesser extent).

Sullivan can play Johnson on the bottom pair, throw him out with line 3 and just murder him with defensive minutes. He's not doing that though, because he somehow thinks that Maatta-Riikola is more suited for that role.

The bottom two lines have struggled on their own. Dragging JJ around, they're going to be exploited by opposing teams and are ill-equipped to handle it even without Johnson. The only two lines that can take it are Sid and Geno's. Stats suggest Geno is hurt less by having a JJ pairing behind him than Sid is. I'm not a Sully fan, by any stretch of the imagination, but in JJ's case he's doing the best he can with what he has. And it would go a ways to explaining why Geno hasn't looked good. It has to be incredibly frustrating for a player of his caliber to have a player like JJ behind him. Kessel is probably in the same boat with the added known conflict with the coach. Is it really any wonder they've been a hot mess?

 

[AverageJoeFan]

The chemistry on the D isn't awesome, but then again the F group isn't great at not turning pucks over and back checking. I'm not sure I put ALL the blame on JJ or Sully, but I do feel like there's been a game or two where the structure was there and we were fine defensively. It just never seems to last. Team discipline is an issue. Too many passes. Too much fancy and not enough put the puck on net.

I feel like Malkin took the extra misconduct last night to make sure maintains his double digit lead in PIMS. =P

 

[Speaking Moistly]

Sullivan can play Johnson on the bottom pair, throw him out with line 3 and just murder him with defensive minutes. He's not doing that though, because he somehow thinks that Maatta-Riikola is more suited for that role.

Because Johnson is shit defensively and L3+Johnson would get decimated. Right now they’re trying to use Schultz to prop him up and Schultz can’t be used that way either.

They’ve seemingly fallen into a cycle of trying to find a way to make Johnson work when that doesn’t exist. Malkin is the best forward at dragging him around and they may have literally cycled through every defenseman on the roster trying to find one who could. There isn’t a magic way to use him well.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Because Johnson is **** defensively and L3+Johnson would get decimated. Right now they’re trying to use Schultz to prop him up and Schultz can’t be used that way either.

They’ve seemingly fallen into a cycle of trying to find a way to make Johnson work when that doesn’t exist. Malkin is the best forward at dragging him around and they may have literally cycled through every defenseman on the roster trying to find one who could. There isn’t a magic way to use him well.

The bottom two lines have struggled on their own. Dragging JJ around, they're going to be exploited by opposing teams and are ill-equipped to handle it even without Johnson. The only two lines that can take it are Sid and Geno's. Stats suggest Geno is hurt less by having a JJ pairing behind him than Sid is. I'm not a Sully fan, by any stretch of the imagination, but in JJ's case he's doing the best he can with what he has. And it would go a ways to explaining why Geno hasn't looked good. It has to be incredibly frustrating for a player of his caliber to have a player like JJ behind him. Kessel is probably in the same boat with the added known conflict with the coach. Is it really any wonder they've been a hot mess?

So it's okay to send out Johnson with Malkin because dragging him down is less bad than dragging down the 3rd line? I just don't agree with that thought. You try to open up your top-6 to score and you pray your bottom-6 doesn't get caved too badly when you have Crosby, Malkin and Kessel in your top-6.

 

[DegenX]

So it's okay to send out Johnson with Malkin because dragging him down is less bad than dragging down the 3rd line? I just don't agree with that thought. You try to open up your top-6 to score and you pray your bottom-6 doesn't get caved too badly when you have Crosby, Malkin and Kessel in your top-6.

Because the third line has been ass all on it's own. Any coach worth their salt would exploit that. They need the better D pairings. I hate that I'm agreeing with Sullivan, but it's the best choice outside of scratching him.

 

[Gurglesons]

So it's okay to send out Johnson with Malkin because dragging him down is less bad than dragging down the 3rd line? I just don't agree with that thought. You try to open up your top-6 to score and you pray your bottom-6 doesn't get caved too badly when you have Crosby, Malkin and Kessel in your top-6.

It’s not like there is anyone else to play him with.

Also, when your GM has doubled down on JJ while calling out Rust of all people.. you just go with the flow

 

[Empoleon8771]

Because the third line has been ass all on it's own. Any coach worth their salt would exploit that. They need the better D pairings. I hate that I'm agreeing with Sullivan, but it's the best choice outside of scratching him.

So is it really going to be much worse with Johnson, then?

Idk, my thought is that I'd rather prop up the good parts of my team and put all of the bad parts of my team together. I'd rather have all of the bad parts together than spread them out.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

So it's okay to send out Johnson with Malkin because dragging him down is less bad than dragging down the 3rd line? I just don't agree with that thought. You try to open up your top-6 to score and you pray your bottom-6 doesn't get caved too badly when you have Crosby, Malkin and Kessel in your top-6.

No. You don’t f***ing send him out because he’s such a negative. Carrying Johnson should not influence decisions; making Johnson work should not be a top priority. Anything that involves playing him is wrong. Playing him is just varying degrees of wrong and in different ways. They’ve tried and failed to make him work. Now the only answer is to sit his ass in the press box and hope someone will take him.

 

[DegenX]

So is it really going to be much worse with Johnson, then?

Idk, my thought is that I'd rather prop up the good parts of my team and put all of the bad parts of my team together. I'd rather have all of the bad parts together than spread them out.

Well, maybe he thinks he is Poor Geno