The All Encompassing JR Thread

[ziggyjoe212]

I thought the Brassard trade was awful. It was awful at the time and even worse in hindsight.
However, the return of Bjugstad and McCann was alot better than I expected.

Overall, I think JR has done a great job of assembling a contender to play with Sid, Geno and Tang. At this point I think the players just aren't in tune with Sullivan like they were in his first 2 years here.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

Wilson had more or as many goals as every single one of our wingers. And in regards to points more or the same as every forward not named Malkin or Kessel.

That’s all you can ask for from a 4th liner. And he was fine on the forecheck.

Wilson's Job was to prevent goals

Check out 1:20 of this video and tell me how hard he was to play against

 

[Joejosh999]

Eh, Reaves was plenty fast enough to fit within a speed system and could have played full time L4 effectively. Sully not playing him smacks of “JR don’t tell me who to play” esp as we see Sully is fine w Wilson.

Re blaming JR - I thought Oleksiak, Gud and esp JJ were far worse moves than Reaves, who’s been effective on diverse teams like St Loo and Vegas once given minutes.
JJ inexcusably bad from JR.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Still think it's extremely conspicuous that this team pulled itself out of the mire on its way to back to back Cups with a speed/skill/aggressive style and it was through trades and signings that it happened. Then immediately after Botterill left in the spring of 2017, JR started to go after these big, slow, ineffective, vanilla players. There's no doubt in my mind that Botterill, if not actually the brains behind the Cup teams, was a hugely influential force in steering JR clear of these stupid, directionless trades and signings he's made since. There's just way too much smoke for there not to be fire there. If you look at all the moves and things that happened before/during the Cup runs and put them alongside the moves that JR has made since Botterill's departure in May of 2017, it's a pretty stark contrast. Dramatic, really.

The long and short of it; I think JR's been exposed as a fraud. If he's not wholly out of touch, he's simply a rudderless ship, throwing things at the wall to see what sticks. For every Scuderi<->Daley and Brass/Sheahan<->Bjugs/McCann, you've got a ton of situations like letting Bonino go without a legit offer to stick around, then searching for a solution to that third line center spot (and bottom six in general) for years, the abominable Reaves trade, Oleksiak, JJ, Hunwick, Pearson, Gudbranson, etc., etc. moves that are just confounding beyond belief when viewed through the lens of what made this team win back to back Cups, the current style/system employed by Sullivan, and the current style the landscape of the entire NHL is trending as a league.

He's either clueless, or is building this team to play in the NHL circa 2003. Either way, he's the biggest issue we've got.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Wilson had more or as many goals as every single one of our wingers. And in regards to points more or the same as every forward not named Malkin or Kessel.

That’s all you can ask for from a 4th liner. And he was fine on the forecheck.

Yeah Gudbranson had a goal too, and Arron Asham once outscored Crosby in a playoff series. Wilson is slow and unproductive, he's the antithesis of what we should be doing on the 4th line.

Doesn't take more than a glance at the Isles 4th to figure out what we're doing wrong.

 

[Terrapin]

Still think it's extremely conspicuous that this team pulled itself out of the mire on its way to back to back Cups with a speed/skill/aggressive style and it was through trades and signings that it happened. Then immediately after Botterill left in the spring of 2017, JR started to go after these big, slow, ineffective, vanilla players. There's no doubt in my mind that Botterill, if not actually the brains behind the Cup teams, was a hugely influential force in steering JR clear of these stupid, directionless trades and signings he's made since. There's just way too much smoke for there not to be fire there. If you look at all the moves and things that happened before/during the Cup runs and put them alongside the moves that JR has made since Botterill's departure in May of 2017, it's a pretty stark contrast. Dramatic, really.

The long and short of it; I think JR's been exposed as a fraud. If he's not wholly out of touch, he's simply a rudderless ship, throwing things at the wall to see what sticks. For every Scuderi<->Daley and Brass/Sheahan<->Bjugs/McCann, you've got a ton of situations like letting Bonino go without a legit offer to stick around, then searching for a solution to that third line center spot (and bottom six in general) for years, the abominable Reaves trade, Oleksiak, JJ, Hunwick, Pearson, Gudbranson, etc., etc. moves that are just confounding beyond belief when viewed through the lens of what made this team win back to back Cups, the current style/system employed by Sullivan, and the current style the landscape of the entire NHL is trending as a league.

He's either clueless, or is building this team to play in the NHL circa 2003. Either way, he's the biggest issue we've got.

The Reaves trade, although slight overpayment, was a very good move. A legit 4th line tough guy that could play, would take care of Tom Wilson, and was loved by every player on the team (especially Sid and Geno). Sullivan, who I suspect out of spite, refused to play him or give him more than 3 minutes a night. Now, before you go on about how Reaves 'sucks, doesn't fit the system, is too slow, plays too physical for us, etc', he did just fine in St Louis, and is doing just fine in Vegas. That debacle is on Sullivan, not JR.

And why is it a debacle? Because, I suspect out of spite, JR got hellbent on trying to replace Reaves (Oleksiak, Wilson, etc). Those moves largely failed, but would have never happened if not for Sullivan being a stubborn prick

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

The Reaves trade, although slight overpayment, was a very good move. A legit 4th line tough guy that could play, would take care of Tom Wilson, and was loved by every player on the team (especially Sid and Geno). Sullivan, who I suspect out of spite, refused to play him or give him more than 3 minutes a night. Now, before you go on about how Reaves 'sucks, doesn't fit the system, is too slow, plays too physical for us, etc', he did just fine in St Louis, and is doing just fine in Vegas. That debacle is on Sullivan, not JR.

And why is it a debacle? Because, I suspect out of spite, JR got hellbent on trying to replace Reaves (Oleksiak, Wilson, etc). Those moves largely failed, but would have never happened if not for Sullivan being a stubborn prick

The Ryan Reaves move was not a good move. It wasn't a good move at the time, and in hindsight, it was horrible. I realize your fascination with toughness and pugilism may be clouding your judgment, but it just wasn't a good move whatsoever.

Speaking of "doing just fine in St. Louis", how's that Sundqvist guy doing lately? Not only did we trade our best prospect at center, we moved down in the draft 20 spots to boot. Because Tom Wilson lives rent free in Jim Rutherford's head.

 

[Gurglesons]

Yeah Gudbranson had a goal too, and Arron Asham once outscored Crosby in a playoff series. Wilson is slow and unproductive, he's the antithesis of what we should be doing on the 4th line.

Doesn't take more than a glance at the Isles 4th to figure out what we're doing wrong.

Yeah speed and possession demons Cal Clutterbuck and Matt Martin really make Wilson look bad.

 

[heysmilinstrange]

Speaking of "doing just fine in St. Louis", how's that Sundqvist guy doing lately? Not only did we trade our best prospect at center, we moved down in the draft 20 spots to boot. Because Tom Wilson lives rent free in Jim Rutherford's head.

Sundqvist was in no way on track for such a good performance in Pittsburgh. Calling him "our best prospect at center" is pretty disingenuous when all of our center prospects suck balls.

 

[cookthebooks]

uhh i think they need to move on from gmjr

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Sundqvist was in no way on track for such a good performance in Pittsburgh. Calling him "our best prospect at center" is pretty disingenuous when all of our center prospects suck balls.

He was undoubtedly our best center prospect. He wasn't on track for any performance here because, for whatever reason, he wasn't really given the time and leash to grow and develop as an NHL player. Young centers don't exactly come out of the gate lighting it up. Particularly big guys in a bottom six role.

The Reaves trade, to anyone being honest with themselves, was a miserable failure.

 

[Mario_is_BACK!!]

This is grounds for immediate termination.

 

[heysmilinstrange]

He was undoubtedly our best center prospect. He wasn't on track for any performance here because, for whatever reason, he wasn't really given the time and leash to grow and develop as an NHL player. Young centers don't exactly come out of the gate lighting it up. Particularly big guys in a bottom six role.

The Reaves trade, to anyone being honest with themselves, was a miserable failure.

I don't think it makes sense to evaluate Sundqvist's role in the Reaves trade on the basis of his performance now, since it's so different from what it was expected to be. Even Blues fans say they had no idea he had this performance in him. I'm not trying to cheerlead the Reaves trade, which I feel neutral about, I'm just saying that bemoaning the loss of a version of Sundqvist no one could have anticipated would exist doesn't make sense.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I don't think it makes sense to evaluate Sundqvist's role in the Reaves trade on the basis of his performance now, since it's so different from what it was expected to be. Even Blues fans say they had no idea he had this performance in him. I'm not trying to cheerlead the Reaves trade, which I feel neutral about, I'm just saying that bemoaning the loss of a version of Sundqvist no one could have anticipated would exist doesn't make sense.

 

[Shady Machine]

Sundqvist was in no way on track for such a good performance in Pittsburgh. Calling him "our best prospect at center" is pretty disingenuous when all of our center prospects suck balls.

So he needed a trade to be on a good trajectory? How do you know that? How is calling him our best prospect at center disingenuous? At the time it was true and now he's a 3rd line center on a good playoff team. JR spent forever trying to find that player and spent plenty of assets and Bjugstad is essentially Sunny with a tad more offensive upside.

Sid-Geno-Sunny-Blueger down the middle with a 4MM more in cap space and a fair amount more in assets looks good right about now.

That's hindsight of course, but I was against the trade from day 1 and seems I've been proven right.

I'll say this, keeping Bones and grooming Sunny and Blueger would have ended up a hell of a lot better than all the trading madness that has happened in the interim.

 

[heysmilinstrange]

So he needed a trade to be on a good trajectory? How do you know that? How is calling him our best prospect at center disingenuous? At the time it was true and now he's a 3rd line center on a good playoff team. JR spent forever trying to find that player and spent plenty of assets and Bjugstad is essentially Sunny with a tad more offensive upside.

Sid-Geno-Sunny-Blueger down the middle with a 4MM more in cap space and a fair amount more in assets looks good right about now.

That's hindsight of course, but I was against the trade from day 1 and seems I've been proven right.

I'll say this, keeping Bones and grooming Sunny and Blueger would have ended up a hell of a lot better than all the trading madness that has happened in the interim.

I clearly stated why it was disingenuous. If all of our center prospects were bad (which they were), then criticizing the Reaves trade because it cost us our best center prospect makes that aspect of the trade sound worse than it was. There's no need to be hyperbolic about that aspect of the trade. But there was no evidence that Sundqvist would perform as he has in St. Louis with Pittsburgh, and it's only hindsight that makes it seem that he would.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Yeah speed and possession demons Cal Clutterbuck and Matt Martin really make Wilson look bad.

They sure caused us fits.

 

[domaug]

The Ryan Reaves move was not a good move. It wasn't a good move at the time, and in hindsight, it was horrible. I realize your fascination with toughness and pugilism may be clouding your judgment, but it just wasn't a good move whatsoever.

Speaking of "doing just fine in St. Louis", how's that Sundqvist guy doing lately? Not only did we trade our best prospect at center, we moved down in the draft 20 spots to boot. Because Tom Wilson lives rent free in Jim Rutherford's head.

i bet you some cold hard vbucks that you had no documented prediction that showed Sundqvist playing as well as he is now

 

[Peat]

Yeah speed and possession demons Cal Clutterbuck and Matt Martin really make Wilson look bad.

Quite. He'd fit in on that 4th line perfectly. I don't want to defend Wilson, but some of the criticism makes him sound better to me, not worse.

I don't think it makes sense to evaluate Sundqvist's role in the Reaves trade on the basis of his performance now, since it's so different from what it was expected to be. Even Blues fans say they had no idea he had this performance in him. I'm not trying to cheerlead the Reaves trade, which I feel neutral about, I'm just saying that bemoaning the loss of a version of Sundqvist no one could have anticipated would exist doesn't make sense.

This is all true.

The Sundqvist we traded away had lost his place in the pecking order to Carter Rowney fair and square and the idea he was a 3C in waiting was pretty far fetched. He's blossomed in St Louis, but it is not an expected development, and even if we hadn't traded Sundqvist for Reaves we'd have probably traded him for someone else that summer.

@ShadyMachine - I seem to recall you raising an eyebrow at a thread talking about Blueger as a potential 3C back last summer; Sundqvist when we traded him was in a very similar place. As such, I'm a bit puzzled as to why you were against the move in the first place.

 

[domaug]

This is grounds for immediate termination.

yikes...

maybe it's time to move on from him

 

[Empoleon8771]

Like I said in the clean out day thread, JR's quote makes complete sense to me in the context of him thinking Johnson is way more than he actually is. He's wrong because Johnson sucks, but this defense with the inaccurate view JR has of Johnson is actually a good defense. His problem is that he thinks Johnson is way better than he actually is, put Josh Manson (who's actually what they think Johnson is) on that 2nd pair and that defense is good.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Like I said in the clean out day thread, JR's quote makes complete sense to me in the context of him thinking Johnson is way more than he actually is. He's wrong because Johnson sucks, but this defense with the inaccurate view JR has of Johnson is actually a good defense. His problem is that he thinks Johnson is way better than he actually is, put Josh Manson (who's actually what they think Johnson is) on that 2nd pair and that defense is good.

I know back in 19tickity2 when he was playing net guys like JJ (dumb-as-brick linebackers on skates) were the norm. So maybe he's just slowly cracking up and approaching the whole thing that way.

Wonder if he's set up a locker for himself with his old-as-shit pads laying around?

 

[Mario_is_BACK!!]

I know back in 19tickity2 when he was playing net guys like JJ (dumb-as-brick linebackers on skates) were the norm. So maybe he's just slowly cracking up and approaching the whole thing that way.

Wonder if he's set up a locker for himself with his old-as-**** pads laying around?

He's going to name himself starting goalie isn't he?

 

[Empoleon8771]

I know back in 19tickity2 when he was playing net guys like JJ (dumb-as-brick linebackers on skates) were the norm. So maybe he's just slowly cracking up and approaching the whole thing that way.

Wonder if he's set up a locker for himself with his old-as-**** pads laying around?

I think it's just really clear that he doesn't view JJ as a "dumb-as-brick linebacker on skates", though. That's the entire point of my post, he thinks the defense is good because he thinks Johnson is actually good. The problem with Johnson isn't that his kind of player is being weeded out of the NHL, his problem is that he sucks. If Johnson was actually as good as JR thought, this defense would be good. 100% it would be good.

Replace Johnson with someone like Zadorov or 2015 Despres and I'd be very comfortable with this defense. The issue here isn't that JR is targeting the wrong kind of players, the issue here is that he's targeting the wrong players. The problem isn't signing someone like Johnson, the problem is specifically signing Johnson.

 

[domaug]

Like I said in the clean out day thread, JR's quote makes complete sense to me in the context of him thinking Johnson is way more than he actually is. He's wrong because Johnson sucks, but this defense with the inaccurate view JR has of Johnson is actually a good defense. His problem is that he thinks Johnson is way better than he actually is, put Josh Manson (who's actually what they think Johnson is) on that 2nd pair and that defense is good.

this.

i think JR legitimately believes that this defense is good and that JJ is a great defenseman. i think it's very troubling that he thinks that, but i believe he actually believes it.