GDT: That Wonderful Time of the Year: BBHOF Balloting

[member 151739]

It's a non-sequitur.

You can't vote on something, and then say that same vote shouldn't have been unanimous. That's not how voting works. You vote for or against. You have no bearing on the other votes. If you vote for something, you vote for it to be unanimous.

I absolutely agree with you. I'm just asking why it's constantly repeated. It makes no sense to me.

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

Roy Halladay is a HOF with
203-105
67 CG
20 Shutouts
3.38 ERA
2,117 K's
1.178 WHIP
64.3 WAR

While Curt Schilling is not a HOF with
216-146
83 CG
20 Shutouts
3.46 ERA
3,116 K's
1.137 WHIP
79.6 WAR

Schilling was also dominant in playoffs

11-2
2.23 ERA
4 CG
2 Shutouts
120 K's
.968 WHIP

1993 NLCS MVP
2001 WS MVP

Its pretty clear his political and personal life are why voters haven't put him in HOF

 

[Tecumseh]

Can someone explain this "no player should be unanimous" stuff to me? Seems completely silly.

Not as silly as Bonds not getting in. But close.

It's one of those old traditions. Not a very good one, in my view. I believe it stems from the inaugural class in which neither Babe Ruth or Ty Cobb were unanimous picks. Ruth was left off nine ballots and Cobb was left off four. In the past, Ken Griffey Jr. and Tom Seaver didn't receive a unanimous election because a few voters took it upon themselves to ensure that no one was unanimous or just figured they'd get in anyway without their vote (which is even more stupid than the tradition).

 

[Blitzkrug]

I always thought the unanimous argument hung on the fact it meant putting x player above y in the voter's mind.

It'd be like voting Gretzky as a unanimous HOFer and then not voting for Lemieux to be unanimous on the logic of "well he's not Gretzky so he doesn't deserve to be unanimous."

Stupid any way you look at it really. The Hall isn't there to decide who was better than who, but more to honor the cream of the crop equally.

 

[member 151739]

It's one of those old traditions. Not a very good one, in my view. I believe it stems from the inaugural class in which neither Babe Ruth or Ty Cobb were unanimous picks. Ruth was left off nine ballots and Cobb was left off four. In the past, Ken Griffey Jr. and Tom Seaver didn't receive a unanimous election because a few voters took it upon themselves to ensure that no one was unanimous or just figured they'd get in anyway without their vote (which is even more stupid than the tradition).

So because voters were silly in the past, it's a rule to continually be silly? Break the cycle, I say. I'm glad Rivera was unanimous.

 

[Cubs2024WSChamps]

That's only one example. Yes, for Babe Ruth and Walter Johnson of course their WAR is going tower over everyone else's but that's because their prime and longevity are not that far apart. There's only a handful of players like that in the history of baseball. Jackie Robinson's and Hank Greenberg's WAR aren't even close to 100. Are you suggesting that we hold players out of the Hall because they sacrificed the best years of their career to serve their country or had abbreviated careers due to the color line.

Jackie Robinson is a cultural icon and represents alot more to baseball then WAR.

Greenberg wasn't going to get 50 WAR in three seasons.

If trying to needle point things like Jackie Robinsons impact on baseball as a defense as to why players like Baines and Halladay deserve to be in the HoF surrounded by the greats of the game is the angle, its a questionable take.

 

[Terry Yake]

bonds and clemens should rightfully get in the next few years based on their percentages trending up

now that edgar is in i hope it means walker gets in eventually as well. i'd say walker was the better player anyways

and omar vizquel does not belong anywhere near the HOF

 

[ecemleafs]

idk how someone who lived through halladay's career could think he is not a hall of famer. hes THE workhorse of his era. he also won 2 CYs and finished top 5 in CY voting 7 times.

 

[Sports Enthusiast]

bonds and clemens should rightfully get in the next few years based on their percentages trending up

now that edgar is in i hope it means walker gets in eventually as well. i'd say walker was the better player anyways

and omar vizquel does not belong anywhere near the HOF

Bonds and Clemens will not get in. They've held in the 50's for awhile now.

 

[Cubs2024WSChamps]

idk how someone who lived through halladay's career could think he is not a hall of famer. hes THE workhorse of his era. he also won 2 CYs and finished top 5 in CY voting 7 times.

He's a poor man's Verlander.

Is Verlander a HoFer?

 

[Tecumseh]

Jackie Robinson is a cultural icon and represents alot more to baseball then WAR.

Greenberg wasn't going to get 50 WAR in three seasons.

If trying to needle point things like Jackie Robinsons impact on baseball as a defense as to why players like Baines and Halladay deserve to be in the HoF surrounded by the greats of the game is the angle, its a questionable take.

Where did I say Baines deserved to be inducted? Robinson is in the Hall because he was a great second basemen, perhaps the best of his generation, as well as the impact he has had politically on the game.

Greenberg essentially missed four-plus seasons since he only played 17 games in '41 and just under a half a season worth of games in '45. He very possibly could have had two more MVP seasons in that stretch and would have had a good shot at passing Babe Ruth's single season HR record if not for the war.

Your 100 WAR threshold is ludicrous. If we used that as the single statistic to measure greatness then we could go decades without seeing another inductee.

 

[Big Poppa Puck]

Next year I think Walker and Schilling get in with Jeter.

Think Bonds and Clemens get in in year 10.

Still can't believe Omar freaking Vizquel gets more votes than Rolen.

 

[Big Poppa Puck]

It's one of those old traditions. Not a very good one, in my view. I believe it stems from the inaugural class in which neither Babe Ruth or Ty Cobb were unanimous picks. Ruth was left off nine ballots and Cobb was left off four. In the past, Ken Griffey Jr. and Tom Seaver didn't receive a unanimous election because a few voters took it upon themselves to ensure that no one was unanimous or just figured they'd get in anyway without their vote (which is even more stupid than the tradition).

Also because of the stupid 10 vote limit instead of a binary ballot. Someone might have said "Well Griffey doesn't need my vote to get in, but Edgar Martinez does or I wanna make sure Andruw Jones stays on future ballots"

 

[Cubs2024WSChamps]

Where did I say Baines deserved to be inducted? Robinson is in the Hall because he was a great second basemen, perhaps the best of his generation, as well as the impact he has had politically on the game.

Greenberg essentially missed four-plus seasons since he only played 17 games in '41 and just under a half a season worth of games in '45. He very possibly could have had two more MVP seasons in that stretch and would have had a good shot at passing Babe Ruth's single season HR record if not for the war.

Your 100 WAR threshold is ludicrous. If we used that as the single statistic to measure greatness then we could go decades without seeing another inductee.

100 WAR keeps the questionable calls, like a Baines or a Halladay, out.

I don't want my HoF polluted with good and very good players.

Banks, Santo, and Williams included. It's become a brozone and that's an embarrassment to the actual legends who have to now have their name tarnished on account of pity votes to drum up publicity for the sake of publicity.

Baines, Bagwell, Halladay, these are guys who had good careers, but the common fan doesn't equate their legacies as the greatest of all time. Not one time, did I stop what I was doing to watch Roy Halladay pitch, or Harold Baines hit.

I have stopped to watch Pujols, Bryant, Trout, etc. But not any above average player. And these same above average players are now filtering into the most exclusive club of baseball history.

Halladay is in the hall? I loled
Just like Baines
Just like Bagwell
Just like most of the players being placed in such a lofty height.

 

[PBandJ]

100 WAR keeps the questionable calls, like a Baines or a Halladay, out.

I don't want my HoF polluted with good and very good players.

Banks, Santo, and Williams included. It's become a brozone and that's an embarrassment to the actual legends who have to now have their name tarnished on account of pity votes to drum up publicity for the sake of publicity.

Baines, Bagwell, Halladay, these are guys who had good careers, but the common fan doesn't equate their legacies as the greatest of all time. Not one time, did I stop what I was doing to watch Roy Halladay pitch, or Harold Baines hit.

I have stopped to watch Pujols, Bryant, Trout, etc. But not any above average player. And these same above average players are now filtering into the most exclusive club of baseball history.

Halladay is in the hall? I loled
Just like Baines
Just like Bagwell
Just like most of the players being placed in such a lofty height.

Welp, good thing no one cares about your opinion then.

Ken Griffey Jr. isn't in your hall of fame, and that's a joke.

 

[Winger for Hire]

100 WAR is a weird threshold to pick as a start point.

A least, if you're going to use WAR pick a number that makes sense. Like 70 WAR (10x seasons around 5 WAR and 5 seasons around 4 WAR).

Even for Small Hall people, 100 WAR, which would have a HoF with 31 people, is too small.

 

[Cubs2024WSChamps]

Welp, good thing no one cares about your opinion then.

Ken Griffey Jr. isn't in your hall of fame, and that's a joke.

(Nods sympathetically)
But no one quotes and responds...

As for Griffey, he was washed up at 30, had a good year five years later, and....accumulated what, 95% of his WAR during his prime years.

Even tho I was told in this thread WAR was a longevity thing....

 

[Cubs2024WSChamps]

100 WAR is a weird threshold to pick as a start point.

A least, if you're going to use WAR pick a number that makes sense. Like 70 WAR (10x seasons around 5 WAR and 5 seasons around 4 WAR).

Even for Small Hall people, 100 WAR, which would have a HoF with 31 people, is too small.

And what's wrong with that?

31 people deemed the best is a whole lot better then above average players like Baines and Halladay freeloading amongst greatness.

 

[EpochLink]

Bonds and Clemens will not get in. They've held in the 50's for awhile now.

Their final years for eligibility are close, both will get in.

 

[Sports Enthusiast]

Next year I think Walker and Schilling get in with Jeter.

Think Bonds and Clemens get in in year 10.

Still can't believe Omar freaking Vizquel gets more votes than Rolen.

Hes well respected but Timmy Kurkjian doesnt see Bonds or Clemens getting in.

 

[rangerssharks414]

Hilarious

How is that hilarious? Saves is a bull**** stat.

 

[blueandgoldguy]

Nice to see Halladay get in. Well-deserved.

It's worth noting Halladay's peak is greater then Schilling or Santana.

Halladay

WAR7: 50.6
Top 10 War for pitchers: 1,1,1,1,2,3,3,4

Schilling

War7: 48.7
Top 10 WAR for Pitchers: 2,2,2,3,4,4,4,4,6,7,8

Santana

War7: 45.0
Top 10 WAR for pitchers: 1,1,1,2,10

It's worth noting Halladay was well on his way to winning the WAR title and another Cy Young award in 2005 until a fluke injury caused him to miss the remainder of his starts. As it stands, he finished third in WAR that season despite missing 14 starts.

What a treat he was to watch as well. There was no pitcher in the new millenium that was as efficient as Doc. Hence, the incredible number of complete games during the dawn of specialization on the mound.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

My take. Halladay is a HOFer no question and will go in as a Jay but there are obviously other pitchers who are also deserving of going in the hall. The recent passing and his impossible to not like personality gave him a boost.

Edgar is an HOFer but Walker among others also deserve to be in ahead of him. Regardless, Edgar is not a bad selection.

Moose finally gets in which is well deserved. He should go in as an Oriole.

Mo got 100% of the votes. That’s cool for him. Someone had to be first. Just so weird that it’s a closer and guys like Griffey, Ripken Jr, Chipper, etc weren’t 100%. What a weird and dumb thing about the BHOF.

Baines getting in is a joke. Omar having more votes than Rolen is a joke.

Most sports journalists must be mouth breathing labotomy patients. I can’t understand how these people have jobs.

 

[DaaaaB's]

100 WAR keeps the questionable calls, like a Baines or a Halladay, out.

I don't want my HoF polluted with good and very good players.

Banks, Santo, and Williams included. It's become a brozone and that's an embarrassment to the actual legends who have to now have their name tarnished on account of pity votes to drum up publicity for the sake of publicity.

Baines, Bagwell, Halladay, these are guys who had good careers, but the common fan doesn't equate their legacies as the greatest of all time. Not one time, did I stop what I was doing to watch Roy Halladay pitch, or Harold Baines hit.

I have stopped to watch Pujols, Bryant, Trout, etc. But not any above average player. And these same above average players are now filtering into the most exclusive club of baseball history.

Halladay is in the hall? I loled
Just like Baines
Just like Bagwell
Just like most of the players being placed in such a lofty height.

So guys should get into the hall based on whether you stopped to watch them play lol. What the hell does that even mean?

Halladay was definitely a hall of famer. One of the most dominant pitchers of the 2000's and did it in by far the toughest division in baseball.

 

[DaaaaB's]

My take. Halladay is a HOFer no question and will go in as a Jay but there are obviously other pitchers who are also deserving of going in the hall. The recent passing and his impossible to not like personality gave him a boost.

Edgar is an HOFer but Walker among others also deserve to be in ahead of him. Regardless, Edgar is not a bad selection.

Moose finally gets in which is well deserved. He should go in as an Oriole.

Mo got 100% of the votes. That’s cool for him. Someone had to be first. Just so weird that it’s a closer and guys like Griffey, Ripken Jr, Chipper, etc weren’t 100%. What a weird and dumb thing about the BHOF.

Baines getting in is a joke. Omar having more votes than Rolen is a joke.

Most sports journalists must be mouth breathing labotomy patients. I can’t understand how these people have jobs.

Omar getting more votes than Helton is a joke too. Helton gets knocked for playing at Coors but his road numbers are hall worthy too. Of course, most voters are too lazy/incompetent to do the research.

As long as Bonds and Clemens aren't in, I'll consider the hall to be a joke anyhow. Same goes for Rose and Shoeless Joe for that matter.