GDT: That Wonderful Time of the Year: BBHOF Balloting

Terry Yake

Registered User
Aug 5, 2013
26,599
15,012
anyone saying mussina isn't worthy of being in the HOF didn't watch baseball in the 90s

he had some bad breaks in his career too. had several near perfect games and the yankees won the WS the year before he got there and the year after he retired
 

DaaaaB's

Registered User
Apr 24, 2004
8,266
1,840
It does seem the standards have slackened in recent years though. Bert Blyleven in particular was an "are you freaking kidding me?" induction from recent times. Baseball always had a reputation as having the highest standards for induction, but I'm not sure that's really true anymore.
Well, Blyleven's career WAR was 95 so according to KBITB he's more deserving to be in there then the likes of Carlton, Gibson, Pedro and Nolan Ryan lol.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kyle McMahon

DaaaaB's

Registered User
Apr 24, 2004
8,266
1,840
Happy to see Mussina in the HOF as well.
Same here. He was one of my favorite pitchers when I was a kid while he played for the Orioles. Then I hated him when he played for the Yankees but all forgiven now.

Ive always kind of liked the Orioles because my dad and younger brother are huge fans of them. My brother is actually named after Ripken. When my mom was in the hospital expecting him, they made a bet that if Ripken homered in that night's game then his name would Cal. He homered twice that night.
 

Voight

#winning
Feb 8, 2012
40,373
16,657
Mulberry Street
anyone saying mussina isn't worthy of being in the HOF didn't watch baseball in the 90s

he had some bad breaks in his career too. had several near perfect games and the yankees won the WS the year before he got there and the year after he retired

9 top 5 Cy finishes, including his last season at 39. Always felt bad he didnt stay 1 more year and win a ring.
 

robert terwilliger

the bart, the
Nov 14, 2005
24,059
511
sw florida
mussina was legit one of the best pitchers of his era. look back at some of those cy votings and him finishing behind f***ing joe table or another relief pitcher who threw a third of the innings he threw. at his peak, he was ~245 innings of like 140 era+ in that era. he was outstanding for an extended period of time and rather than stay on and compile, he retired.
 

Terry Yake

Registered User
Aug 5, 2013
26,599
15,012
yeah he retired following his age 39 season

he could've easily played another 2-3 seasons based on how well he pitched in 08
 

GIN ANTONIC

Registered User
Aug 19, 2007
18,786
14,617
Toronto, ON


I get the point but WAR isn’t everything. It’s not the Hall of WAR. Halladays career was cut short due to to injury. He deserves to be in the hall and so does everyone else on that list. He’s not the player that should be made out to be undeserving in this.

I mean if you really want to play that game, what’s Mariano’s WAR? And he was unanimous
 

darko

Registered User
Feb 16, 2009
70,265
7,786
9 top 5 Cy finishes, including his last season at 39. Always felt bad he didnt stay 1 more year and win a ring.

I know that sometimes players tend to fall off a cliff as they age but IMO he had 2 more years at least in him.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Voight

DaaaaB's

Registered User
Apr 24, 2004
8,266
1,840
I get the point but WAR isn’t everything. It’s not the Hall of WAR. Halladays career was cut short due to to injury. He deserves to be in the hall and so does everyone else on that list. He’s not the player that should be made out to be undeserving in this.

I mean if you really want to play that game, what’s Mariano’s WAR? And he was unanimous
I agree with what you're saying but I think he's just pointing out how ridiculous Bonds and Clemens not being in the hall is.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Voight

Blitzkrug

Registered User
Sep 17, 2013
25,785
7,632
Winnipeg
Modano is a great comparison to Mussina actually reading back on it. Mussina faced the same problem he did.

Mussina is one of those guys, despite the resume worthy of the hall, he was always kinda lost in the shuffle. He had great consistency, but the problem was he didn't have the flash to his game. So while Mussina was being great, you had like 5 or 6 other titans of pitching around the same time he was; Pedro, Clemens, Randy Johnson, etc.

Modano suffered from the same thing. Damn good player in his own right (i'd even argue he's a underrated historically) but he wasn't flashy like your Jagrs, Federovs, Hulls, Sakics or any of the other "sexy" forwards of the time.
 

Blitzkrug

Registered User
Sep 17, 2013
25,785
7,632
Winnipeg
Well like I said, I understand Rivera. When you're the best and most famous ever at something, you're going to get in, even if you're a specialist. But Lee Smith? Who the heck was sitting there thinking "boy, Lee Smith sure ought to be in the HOF"? It just seems so odd that a guy like that gets inducted while a guy like Johan Santana, arguably the best starter in the league for a 5 year span, is apparently a complete afterthought.

It's because that was it for Santana. He had the 5 year peak of dominance and then just basically flamed out.

Halladay on the other hand had a similar 5 year peak of dominance followed by a consistent 5 or so years of great played followed by one more spectacular final act before his arm fell off in Philly.

There's very few players in any sport that will get into their respective halls with that short of a peak. You better be blowing people out of the water like Gale Sayers and Terrell Davis did in the NFL if you want to.
 

Neutrinos

Registered User
Sep 23, 2016
8,587
3,597
It's because that was it for Santana. He had the 5 year peak of dominance and then just basically flamed out.

Halladay on the other hand had a similar 5 year peak of dominance followed by a consistent 5 or so years of great played followed by one more spectacular final act before his arm fell off in Philly.

There's very few players in any sport that will get into their respective halls with that short of a peak. You better be blowing people out of the water like Gale Sayers and Terrell Davis did in the NFL if you want to.

From '02 - '10, Santana went 130 - 66, with a 2.90 ERA, 1.07 WHIP, and 1785 strikeouts in 1779 innings

His highest single season ERA during that stretch was 3.33, so he was a legit ace during those 9 seasons
 

Voight

#winning
Feb 8, 2012
40,373
16,657
Mulberry Street
Modano is a great comparison to Mussina actually reading back on it. Mussina faced the same problem he did.

Mussina is one of those guys, despite the resume worthy of the hall, he was always kinda lost in the shuffle. He had great consistency, but the problem was he didn't have the flash to his game. So while Mussina was being great, you had like 5 or 6 other titans of pitching around the same time he was; Pedro, Clemens, Randy Johnson, etc.

Modano suffered from the same thing. Damn good player in his own right (i'd even argue he's a underrated historically) but he wasn't flashy like your Jagrs, Federovs, Hulls, Sakics or any of the other "sexy" forwards of the time.

Don't forget Maddux, Santana, Glavine, Smoltz etc. It was quite the era for star pitchers.

I get that. It just seems like it’s taking a bit of a jab at Doc which is unnecessary

What they are trying to say is that even if you split Bonds/Clemens careers in half they are still HHOF worthy. Its just ludicrous two of the top 10 players ever aren't in.

Mo's WAR may not be high but everyone knows he was the best ever at his position, especially in the playoffs.
 

GIN ANTONIC

Registered User
Aug 19, 2007
18,786
14,617
Toronto, ON
Don't forget Maddux, Santana, Glavine, Smoltz etc. It was quite the era for star pitchers.



What they are trying to say is that even if you split Bonds/Clemens careers in half they are still HHOF worthy. Its just ludicrous two of the top 10 players ever aren't in.

Mo's WAR may not be high but everyone knows he was the best ever at his position, especially in the playoffs.

Of course everyone knows he’s the best closer but if the point was to show Bonds and Clemens WAR advantage vs the rest of the class then why leave out Rivera? Maybe just an oversight but it seems a bit like an intentional shot at Doc as well as championing the case for the other two.
 

Kyle McMahon

Registered User
May 10, 2006
13,301
4,352
It's because that was it for Santana. He had the 5 year peak of dominance and then just basically flamed out.

Halladay on the other hand had a similar 5 year peak of dominance followed by a consistent 5 or so years of great played followed by one more spectacular final act before his arm fell off in Philly.

There's very few players in any sport that will get into their respective halls with that short of a peak. You better be blowing people out of the water like Gale Sayers and Terrell Davis did in the NFL if you want to.

I'm not even saying Santana should be in the HOF, but I'd take him over a bloody relief pitcher 100 times out of 100, and I'm sure any manager would too.
 

Voight

#winning
Feb 8, 2012
40,373
16,657
Mulberry Street
Of course everyone knows he’s the best closer but if the point was to show Bonds and Clemens WAR advantage vs the rest of the class then why leave out Rivera? Maybe just an oversight but it seems a bit like an intentional shot at Doc as well as championing the case for the other two.

It had nothing to do with Halladay. It was to show how damn good both are compared to people who are up for induction and have been inducted.

Basically showing how stupid the voters are. Everyone knows closers have low WAR because they only pitch 50-70 innings a season.
 

GIN ANTONIC

Registered User
Aug 19, 2007
18,786
14,617
Toronto, ON
It had nothing to do with Halladay. It was to show how damn good both are compared to people who are up for induction and have been inducted.

Basically showing how stupid the voters are. Everyone knows closers have low WAR because they only pitch 50-70 innings a season.

I guess... it’s just an interesting list to end at number 11. A top 10 list is a thing. If they were going to list all the HOF members then why not include Mo? Seems a bit calculated to leave it at 11 with Halladay at the end. Maybe I’m wearing a tin foil hat on this but it just caught me as a bit strange
 

DaaaaB's

Registered User
Apr 24, 2004
8,266
1,840
Modano is a great comparison to Mussina actually reading back on it. Mussina faced the same problem he did.

Mussina is one of those guys, despite the resume worthy of the hall, he was always kinda lost in the shuffle. He had great consistency, but the problem was he didn't have the flash to his game. So while Mussina was being great, you had like 5 or 6 other titans of pitching around the same time he was; Pedro, Clemens, Randy Johnson, etc.

Modano suffered from the same thing. Damn good player in his own right (i'd even argue he's a underrated historically) but he wasn't flashy like your Jagrs, Federovs, Hulls, Sakics or any of the other "sexy" forwards of the time.
Some of the girls I knew in high school would disagree with you about Modano not being one of the "sexy" forwards :laugh:
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad

-->