Tank or re-tool on the fly?

[Derp Kassian]

Will only renew if they tank. Don't care about losing money. Need an 'elite prospect in this years draft.

 

[Pip]

There's a huge difference between what these 2 teams did.

The problem with the Oilers is that they decided to go completely with their youth and didn't have veterans to help guide the team and mentor the young. The Pens had a lot of vets on their roster when Crosby and Malkin first came in - they learned from seasoned vets - led of course by Lemieux, but that team also had Recchi, Palffy, Gonchar, and Leclair.

The Oilers thought they could just let their youth run with it and develop on their own... and then made things even worse by recycling rookie coaches to guide them. This is why even with their most talented players you see holes in their games.

The proper way to rebuild, IMO, is to have good leaders and respected vets around for your youth to lean on - and not to stack the roster with young players, but bring them in gradually learning from the vets. This is what we saw in Pittsburgh.. what we always see in Detroit, what we've seen in the past in Colorado (though they are a very young roster this time around).

Teams that seemed to be forever stuck in rebuild, like the Oilers, or Thrashers in the past, or Isles, etc, seem to focus so much to finding as many spots for their up and comers that they ignore the importance of having good veteran leaders to help that development process. Don't want to see the Canucks caught in that cycle. The Sedins, Hamhuis, Bieksa - these guys are going to be invaluable IMO in helping the next wave develop.

All I meant if for the sake of the poll (I hope?) meant to choose between a full rebuild getting multiple high picks, or try to restock while being competitive in a retool.

Otherwise it's a completely ridiculous poll since it's obvious what the Oilers are doing is not how you build winning franchise

 

[DoubleTrouble]

AquaMan.. wants no part of a Tank..

But as a fan on the Nucks since the 70's.. I would like them to have one more down season to stock the cupboards..

Retooling on the fly works for some teams but you have to be able to draft really well in later rounds... The Jury is still out on Benning and some of the idiots we have as scouts..

Can Benning convince Linden we need a huge overhaul in the scouting department.. That is the real question if we are going to retool on the fly

 

[Pip]

@DarrenX: Lmao. Doughty not a franchise player? Guess 2 Stanley Cups in 3 years is not good enough.

Williams has 2 cups in 3 years and a Conn Smythe, is he a franchise player?

Don't use cups to determine who is a franchise player.

 

[Takumi3000]

Williams has 2 cups in 3 years and a Conn Smythe, is he a franchise player?

Don't use cups to determine who is a franchise player.

Williams is not their #1 Defencemen. He is able to do what he can because he is surrounded by franchise players in Kopitar and Doughty.

I can't believe we are even arguing. Do you think this lowly of Doughty? Why would you? How many Dmen at his age can do what he can do?

 

[Ventana*]

Williams has 2 cups in 3 years and a Conn Smythe, is he a franchise player?

Don't use cups to determine who is a franchise player.

Williams is a complimentary player who steps up his game for the playoffs, similar to how Martin Gelinas used to with the flames. Doughty and Quick are both franchise players. They are both truly elite. Kopitar could be argued, but I don't think he's quite there yet. Another dominant year + an award win or two and I think he could be considered a franchise player. Doughty is a top 10, arguably top 5 d-man and Quick is a top 5, arguably best goalie in the league, regular season AND playoffs

 

[Shareefruck]

I just want the team to be awful on paper for ONE more year. This upcoming one.

Don't sign UFAs unless they'll help out the young guys (like an Iginla would).

Give Horvat, Corrado, Jensen, and Vey full time roles, but properly insultate them with players like Hamhuis, Higgins/Burrows/Hansen, The Sedins, a veteran backup, and Bonino.

Sedin - Sedin - Jensen
Vey - Bonino - Kassian
Higgins - Horvat - Burrows/Hansen
Dorsette - Matthias - Richardson

Hamhuis - Corrado/Tanev
Edler - Tanev/Corrado
Stanton - Bieksa

Lack
Veteran backup

ONE year in a deep draft is all we need to get this prospect pool really refined-- You don't need to be McDavid bad, just don't needlessly add guys like Cammalleri to this group. When Horvat, Gaunce, Jensen, Vey, and Corrado are LEGITIMATE contributors and the second wave start making the team, then start signing UFAs and build the team up to compete, maybe get rid of a Bieksa or Edler, a Burrows or Hansen as they become redundant, and don't start trading away picks to compete just yet. When these guys actually become core players, then start to make trades to become a contender.

Hopefully ending up with something built around

Virtanen - 2015 1st rounder - Kassian
XX - Horvat - XX
McCann - Gaunce - Matthias
XX - XX - XX

Hutton - Tanev
Hamhuis? - Corrado
Stanton - XX

Veteran version of Lack
Demko

(I left XXs to account for some guys potentially not making the team-- The guys I left in are the guys I'm confident in)

We're doomed if we don't have the patience to accept a transition year for at least one season.

 

[Tim McCracken]

The problem I have with the Oilers has nothing to do with the length of the abyss, but rather how they mis-managed their assets and decisions during the tank.

- Did not sign veterans.
- Did not draft the right players - should have traded down a spot or two to avoid redundancy.
- Traded away two way guys like Smid for nil.
- Poor coach signings, turnover too high.

Fair enough. I don't think Canucks fans, especially season ticket holders, have the stones to put up with the sustained misery Avs and Hawks fans even went through with the risk it could approach Oiler territory.

Actually Hawks fans didn't. Their attendance dropped big time. Sure it was aided by lack of tv exposure due to old man Wirtz but what good would games on tv have done when the team stunk? Might have made it worse.

Home attendance at United Center
Season Attendance Average
1994–95 499,445 20,832
1995–96 835,971 20,390
1996–97 795,165 19,396
1997–98 752,611 18,350
1998–99 710,530 17,329
1999–2000 667,237 16,274
2000–01 614,875 14,996
2001–02 638,324 15,568
2002–03 606,580 14,794
2003–04 543,374 13,253
2005–06 546,075 13,318
2006–07 521,809 12,727
2007–08 689,377 16,814
2008–09 871,337 21,783
2009–10 854,267 21,356
2010–11 878,356 21,423
2011–12 882,874 21,533
2012–13 522,619 21,775
2013–14 864,624 21,615

 

[Takumi3000]

Williams is a complimentary player who steps up his game for the playoffs, similar to how Martin Gelinas used to with the flames. Doughty and Quick are both franchise players. They are both truly elite. Kopitar could be argued, but I don't think he's quite there yet. Another dominant year + an award win or two and I think he could be considered a franchise player. Doughty is a top 10, arguably top 5 d-man and Quick is a top 5, arguably best goalie in the league, regular season AND playoffs

Another reason why Williams is only a complimentary player (albeit very good and clutch) is his age. He is much older compared to Doughty.

 

[groovygoodwine]

I want to... tank on the fly

 

[Ventana*]

Another reason why Williams is only a complimentary player (albeit very good and clutch) is his age. He is much older compared to Doughty.

Agreed, but even if he was 24/25, I still wouldn't consider him a "franchise player" because his lack of regular season production. It's average, but not close to a franchise level.

 

[realist99]

I looked back at the Bruins seasons since 2006...
And I can definitely see the similarities.

When Chiarelli came before that 2006/07 season...
The team had gotten rid of Joe Thornton a couple of months before...
And the team had a top 5 pick...
Which it used to draft Kessel.
In the same draft...
Boston also got Lucic and Marchand...
And it traded Raycroft for Rask.
Then the team signed Chara and Savard in the summer.

The team still sucked though...
And Boston got the 8th overall pick next year.
It did nothing with it...
But the earlier draft picks and acquisitions...
Such as Krejci and Thomas...
From the previous regime...
Had started to pay dividends.
Marco Strum also proved to be a capable goal scorer...
And Brad Stuart is a dependable top-4.
Next year...
They barely sneaked into the playoffs...
But they never looked back since then.

2006 was the turning point.
I have looked back at Boston's draft since that draft...
And Boston drafted rather poorly in all these years.
The only thing that saved Boston was that it made very good trades...
Such as the one for Seidenberg and Matt Bartkowski...
Who they acquired for a 2nd, Bitz and Weller...
And the Kessel trade...
Which gave the team a lot of futures.
They also got Wheeler...
The 5th overall pick in 2004...
Who Spurned the Coyotes and signed with the Bruins...
And they used him to acquire Peverley.

Yes...
Boston did not tank...
But it is not correct that it did not have high picks.
It just mostly used those very well.
It also got very lucky...
As it got 4 very important pieces at the 2006 draft...
And it was able to sign a franchise defenseman...
Who almost never comes onto market...
From free agency.
Then the team added important pieces through smart trades in subsequent years.

Now...
In regards to the Canucks...
The questions are...
Is Benning's 2014 draft comparable to Boston's 2006 draft?
Will the prospects they have now step up eventually?
Is there a franchise altering player in free agency?
Will the Canucks be able to get him?
Will he be able to make smart trades...
And get the pieces for a championship team?

Sure...
It will take years to know...
And while I cannot answer questions 1 and 2 yet...
Questions 3 and 4 are definitely a no.
Question 4 is interesting...
Because while I think it is a no...
Since Benning appeared to have bled assets at every turn...
And I did not like any of the trades...
It is way too early...
So I will give him the benefit of the doubt for now...
And say it is undetermined yet.

In consideration of everything...
I just think the situations are too different.
Plus...
That Boston model is mostly a fluke...
And it got very, very lucky...
Even in trades...
I will argue.
I honestly do not think it can be copied.

Again...
While I am not optimistic about the team's future...
I do hope that I am wrong...
And Benning is able to copy to do what Boston had done.

Again, the point was that Boston didn't tank. Drafting..trades...luck ? Now if Boston isn't proof enough that you don't need top 5 picks to compete. How about LA?

Current roster has 10 first round picks. Brown 13, Carter 11 (trade), Gaborik 3 (T), Kopitar 11, Lewis 17, Pearson 30, Richards 24 (T), Williams 28 (T), Doughty 2, Regehr 19 (T)

5 - 2nd round picks, 3 -3rd round picks, 2 -4th round picks, 1 -5th round pick, 1 -7th round pick, 1 -8th round pick and 1 undrafted FA

So they have 2 guys on the roster picked in the top 5 ..Doughty and Gaborik who they got in a salary dump trade.

More proof that you don't need to tank like Edmonton to stock pile top 5 picks. Good drafting/developing and trading are > top 5 picks

 

[Chubros]

Jim Benning was quoted in Jason Botchford's article in today's Province:

“We want to make the playoffs next year. Our goal is to make the playoffs every year and develop young players in a winning environment."

So there will be no tanking.

Last year was our tank year. Now let's move forward.

 

[opendoor]

Jim Benning was quoted in Jason Botchford's article in today's Province:



So there will be no tanking.

Last year was our tank year. Now let's move forward.

The team wanted to make the playoffs this year too and look what happened. Simply wanting to doesn't mean you will.

Yeah they're not going to intentionally lose, but they've just downgraded the roster of a team that finished in 25th place. If they actually do the smart thing and not make any moves that will hinder the long term of the team they might finish near the bottom of the league whether they like it or not.

 

[Yossarian54]

One year. No need to "tank" by trading away players or actively trying to lose. Just take one year to see where this team is at without the drama and coaching hilarity that occurred last year.

If we suck, fine, we suck. But then we snag a Barzal or a Konecy or some other kid who is instantly the best prospect we have had since the twins and the franchise player we need for the future. Then you bring guys like Horvat and Shinkaruk in next year and we start getting real contributions from young players while the Sedins, Bieksa and Hamhuis are still here.

If we don't suck, great, start bringing prospects this year and get them into a winning environment, pick the best guy you can in 2015 and keep on rolling in the hope that we can push back up to contention without that high pick 'franchise' guy that the majority of recent cup winners seem to have.

If the status quo for one year is a tank, then I guess i'm for a tank. Doesn't sound like it to me though.

 

[groov2]

Jim Benning was quoted in Jason Botchford's article in today's Province:



So there will be no tanking.

Last year was our tank year. Now let's move forward.

Amen.

 

[jigsaw99]

tanking works when the top pick is with the elite likes of Malkin and Crosby... which next year will be...

 

[Derp Kassian]

Jim Benning was quoted in Jason Botchford's article in today's Province:



So there will be no tanking.

Last year was our tank year. Now let's move forward.

We are going to tank because we just lost our 2nd best forward dude, and a top 4 defenseman. Replaced with a third line centre and a Luca freakin Sbisa.

 

[Shareefruck]

One year. No need to "tank" by trading away players or actively trying to lose. Just take one year to see where this team is at without the drama and coaching hilarity that occurred last year.

If we suck, fine, we suck. But then we snag a Barzal or a Konecy or some other kid who is instantly the best prospect we have had since the twins and the franchise player we need for the future. Then you bring guys like Horvat and Shinkaruk in next year and we start getting real contributions from young players while the Sedins, Bieksa and Hamhuis are still here.

If we don't suck, great, start bringing prospects this year and get them into a winning environment, pick the best guy you can in 2015 and keep on rolling in the hope that we can push back up to contention without that high pick 'franchise' guy that the majority of recent cup winners seem to have.

If the status quo for one year is a tank, then I guess i'm for a tank. Doesn't sound like it to me though.

This is how I feel.

I don't think anyone wants to try to make moves to be awful year in year out for the next decade. But to make additional moves to try and contend next year is moronic.

The focus next year needs to be on transition, learning the system, building a team, and development, otherwise we're screwed, Calgary style, IMO. This is why it's so hard for Canadian teams to do well, because the media/fans won't allow for anything other than constant push.

 

[Tim McCracken]

We are going to tank because we just lost our 2nd best forward dude, and a top 4 defenseman. Replaced with a third line centre and a Luca freakin Sbisa.

They lost a cancer in the room and the number 5 d-man on their depth chart earning top 4 money. They're better off without both.

 

[Hi-wayman]

Well, do people have the stomach to suck for a few more years, even worse than this year, and want to RISK sliding longer than that? Vote with a caveat then.

Do people have the stomach to want a player or a coach purposely try to lose and still call themselves professional hockey players and a Canuck?

 

[Sharpshooter]

I want a one year tank. We need a franchise center, and we'll be able to get one in the next draft. Get him, then start the re-tooling process and making splashes in FA.

McDavid is a once in a lifetime player. We aren't going to be competitive. We'd be crazy to not get in on the sweepstakes.

I agree with this. If you're going to rebuild or retool, then do it around McDavid or at the least Eichel.

If we can retool enough while tanking, in order to shorten the length of time it takes to add in/bring along other vets and prospects, then i'm all for that. Make this a team players would be excited about coming to, because of the kind of players they'd be joining up with. The first class treatment and natural beauty of the city, etc should simply be icing on the cake.

 

[Sharpshooter]

Amen.

Yeah? Well where was your god on draft day??

 

[Tim McCracken]

I agree with this. If you're going to rebuild or retool, then do it around McDavid or at the least Eichel.

If we can retool enough while tanking, in order to shorten the length of time it takes to add in/bring along other vets and prospects, then i'm all for that. Make this a team players would be excited about coming to, because of the kind of players they'd be joining up with. The first class treatment and natural beauty of the city, etc should simply be icing on the cake.

Problem is, the Canucks don't have a bad enough team to tank to the point either would be in play anyway.

 

[DoubleTrouble]

Jim Benning was quoted in Jason Botchford's article in today's Province:



So there will be no tanking.

Last year was our tank year. Now let's move forward.

Come On... Can we tank one more year please