TV: Survivor: Winners at War - Season Discussion Thread

[spintheblackcircle]

One thing is clear. Our reality and opinions based on that reality isn’t actually what really happened in a lot of cases

The editing makes a huge difference to entertain. I would have loved to see Natalie yelling at Yul for taking too long.

Makes me feel I watched a different game.....

 

[The Crypto Guy]

What a season!! Tony CLEARLY should have won, literally dominated from start to finish, plus he seems like a really good guy in the real world.

Anyway, how is nobody talking about that bonehead Ben? He literally for no reason told Sarah to vote him out when he was so close to the end and 2 million dollars. I was sitting there with my jaw on the ground. “This friendship means more” ok bud, you still could have had the friendship and not told her to vote you out

 

[Peasy]

What a season!! Tony CLEARLY should have won, literally dominated from start to finish, plus he seems like a really good guy in the real world.

Anyway, how is nobody talking about that bonehead Ben? He literally for no reason told Sarah to vote him out when he was so close to the end and 2 million dollars. I was sitting there with my jaw on the ground. “This friendship means more” ok bud, you still could have had the friendship and not told her to vote you out

Ben had 0 chance at winning the game and he recognized that and wanted to help a friend out.

 

[JackSlater]

This was an interesting season for me to watch. I watched the first ten seasons of Survivor as they aired, then came back for Heroes vs Villains as it aired, then passively watched season 39 before watching this season. I've also watched most of the seasons I hadn't seen before over the last three months.

Tony was the clear winner here. I was not a Tony fan as a player from Cagayan as I found him pretty sloppy and reckless, but I am impressed here. He laid low at the beginning because he would have been voted out otherwise, then came on strong at the end to ensure that if he made the finals he would win. He made a lot of good reads on people and even did small things like (mentioned in a post-season interview and clear if you look for it) consistently maintained a submissive posture when dealing with people in order to not be perceived as a threat. Really strong winning performance and the clear deserving winner.

Natalie winning would have been season ruining. Regardless of what she says she was the first person voted out. Several players in their post-game interviews or jury speaks videos basically said that they believe that when you're out you're out, and I agree. From what I've read she also was responsible for her own boot on day 2 due to her behaviour with at lest two people who voted her out claiming that Michele was the initial target before Natalie forced their hand. She also didn't play exceptionally when she got back in. It looks bad on anyone who voted for her to win.

I'm not really a fan of how Michele played. I haven't seen her first season but she looks like someone who was brought along to the final because anyone could beat her this time. She had very little influence on the game according to the people there and what we saw. She was also the beneficiary of Ben's bizarre decision. If not for Ben doing something completely unpredictable she's out fifth. Looking at the post-season interviews and jury videos it's pretty clear that they didn't respect her gameplay very much. She was pretty much a goat.

With the others who got deep you can feel for Sarah a bit. She was probably the next deserving to win but lost the fire making. She clearly didn't play as well as Tony, even reading behind the scenes things, especially when it came to reading people and not making enemies. Some people really grew attached to her while some others really disliked her, while in Tony's case he doesn't seem loved by anyone but he was liked by all. Her gender issues speech was weak and from what she and Natalie have said was largely concocted in order to give her a "story" for the end after Natalie told her that such a thing was necessary. The issue with Sarah's popularity is that she's boring, not that she is a villainous player who is a woman. Villainous women have been popular Survivor players and some villainous men have been hated if they were boring, it is what it is. No surprise that Probst wanted to run with that story after season 39 though. Her ego is clearly her biggest obstacle (clearly in Cagayan, also here when she couldn't comprehend that the jury saw that Tony was outplaying her, also pretty much any interview she gives) but she is a very strong player. If she had replaced Tony and Natalie had beaten her, which I think is a possibility as there was some anti-Sarah sentiment, it would have been a bad joke.

It seems that Ben's decision to get voted off was basically due to him being well aware that he had no chance to win. He saw the way that the jury was reacting to him and his lack of tokens and knew that he was a goat. He definitely got close to a few of the people out there and wanted to go out in a way that helped one of them rather than get carried to the end and get ripped apart by the jury. Weird decision but it's his. He strangely told everyone in jury why he did that, which to me means that it was pointless as they know that Sarah didn't really "get" him. He seems like he was really affected by how people reacted to him after his win and in the jury. In the jury they picked on Tyson jokingly by calling him a "Ben level" player and most of them clearly had no respect for Ben. From watching this season and his winning season I do not think that he is a good player.

I thought that it was just an ok season with too much focus on things I didn't care about and a lack of coherent story in most of the early episodes. I didn't really root for any of the winners outside of Parvati and Denise. Parvati's play was seemingly ok, but she had terrible luck by getting placed in a five person tribe with a four person pre-game alliance (confirmed by Nick before the season started airing) so that was weak. She likely never stood a chance but I do think that she could have played better in the first tribe. I think that she will return for an Island of the Idols type season in the near future, maybe with Tyson. Denise played pretty well and was in a decent spot to win but had some misfortune when four out of six people were suddenly immune. I was thoroughly entertained by her taking out Sandra though I don't think that it was the best move as that tribe had better players she could have targeted. I would have been quite content with Denise winning if Tony was taken out.

 

[Loosie]

Ben had 0 chance at winning the game and he recognized that and wanted to help a friend out.

Unfortunately I think that was a costly mistake for Sarah. If she votes Michelle instead of Ben there's a greater chance that Natalie takes her and has Ben and Tony fight it out. I'm not sure Sarah beats Tony in the final, but it's a closer fight I think at that point.

 

[Loosie]

Also given Rob's comment during final tribal it now seems like Chris from the first run of Edge of Extinction set a new expectation of giving up your immunity to fight the biggest threat yourself in the fire-making challenge.

 

[MVP of West Hollywd]

Ben had 0 chance at winning the game and he recognized that and wanted to help a friend out.

I think Ben had a chance to win but his only chance was doing it was stabbing his friends in the back by doing everything he can to bring Michelle and Natalie to the final three, and probably starting with aligning with them to vote out Sarah in the final five. But it's clear he valued his relationship with Tony and Sarah too much to build a plan to get rid of them both, and he was never going to win with either of them in the final three.

 

[zombie kopitar]

Anyway, how is nobody talking about that bonehead Ben? He literally for no reason told Sarah to vote him out when he was so close to the end and 2 million dollars. I was sitting there with my jaw on the ground. “This friendship means more” ok bud, you still could have had the friendship and not told her to vote you out

I think Ben had a chance to win but his only chance was doing it was stabbing his friends in the back by doing everything he can to bring Michelle and Natalie to the final three, and probably starting with aligning with them to vote out Sarah in the final five. But it's clear he valued his relationship with Tony and Sarah too much to build a plan to get rid of them both, and he was never going to win with either of them in the final three.

Natalie told him that everyone hated him on EoE and was going to get no votes. I don't think he mentally wanted to deal with what he had to do to maybe have a shot, nor did he want to get berated as a no vote finalist. Which makes sense for someone with PTSD, and had to deal with that type of stuff with how he won his first season.

What he did was the best thing he could have done for his legacy as a player and his personal arc this season (short of winning, obviously)


That being said, he was not playing a good game until he fumbled his way in to one of the tightest alliances the game has seen. If Tony didn't catch him red handed finding an idol it never even happens.

 

[ThePhoenixx]

That wasn't just Sarah. Ben was also saying Nat didn't have an idol and wanted to vote her out. Don't put the blame all on her...

I felt that all of Sarah's comments about how women are perceived in this game, and how they have been in the past is completely valid. Your comment is displaying the bias that she brought up.

I thought it showed how some very intelligent players can be so easily manipulated by crying out, "Rah! Rah! Disrespect! Womanhood!"

 

[spintheblackcircle]

When Danni said after the show "People on EOE said a ton of bad things about Sarah," I bet Natalie told her ALL about it when she came back and that's what got Sarah to make that speech.

 

[ThePhoenixx]

When Danni said after the show "People on EOE said a ton of bad things about Sarah," I bet Natalie told her ALL about it when she came back and that's what got Sarah to make that speech.

Natalie had three themes to push when she returned and she did it beautifully. Tony needs to go, go women and she had no idol.

Sarah bought all three hook, line and sinker. So did Ben. Those two self-destructed at the end because Natalie played them. That's why Natalie deserved some votes.

 

[SouthGeorge]

Also given Rob's comment during final tribal it now seems like Chris from the first run of Edge of Extinction set a new expectation of giving up your immunity to fight the biggest threat yourself in the fire-making challenge.

I mean it makes sense. If you're going to get voted off especially 1st vote and you don't come back until 6. You need to do everything possible to win.

Natalie had three themes to push when she returned and she did it beautifully. Tony needs to go, go women and she had no idol.

Sarah bought all three hook, line and sinker. So did Ben. Those two self-destructed at the end because Natalie played them. That's why Natalie deserved some votes.

Natalie is a pro and she played Sarah. Sarah isn't a top player imo. She just coast. She's not a big threat. If she played again, nobody would be like we need to get Sarah out like they do these other winners. Then she finds alliances and really good at social aspect and coast. That's it.

 

[hoglund]

Do you guys think that there is a gender bias that Sarah claims and Jeff Probst agrees with? When a women lies and manipulates they're labeled a bitch, but when a man does that they're a stud and it's good gameplay. In my 20 years of watching this game I have never thought or labeled men and women differently. Where did this come from?

 

[MVP of West Hollywd]

Unfortunately I think that was a costly mistake for Sarah. If she votes Michelle instead of Ben there's a greater chance that Natalie takes her and has Ben and Tony fight it out. I'm not sure Sarah beats Tony in the final, but it's a closer fight I think at that point.

I don't think anybody had a chance against Tony

Sarah was probably in the best chance for her to win. Tony gets eliminated, and she's the one to do it. Personally I think if she won the fire challenge she's the winner right now.

 

[The Crypto Guy]

Do you guys think that there is a gender bias that Sarah claims and Jeff Probst agrees with? When a women lies and manipulates they're labeled a bitch, but when a man does that they're a stud and it's good gameplay. In my 20 years of watching this game I have never thought or labeled men and women differently. Where did this come from?

That was one or the dumbest rants in survivor history and i like Sarah a lot. Jeff was forced to agree or he would have had half the population hate him.

 

[koyvoo]

Sarah was on RHAP and said the whole rant was a jury ploy and laughed at it. Said she felt there’d be slot of appreciation from the jury for a feminist lefty.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

Sarah was on RHAP and said the whole rant was a jury ploy and laughed at it. Said she felt there’d be slot of appreciation from the jury for a feminist lefty.

Yeah, I said this right after that anyone that didn't think it was a blatant play to the jury the day she found out that the jury thought Tony was playing a better game was straight up delusional.

 

[Canada4Gold]

Thinking back to Ben and Sarah not doing a 2-2-2 split on Natalie and Denise when Tony was begging them to in the final 6 because they were so sure Nat didn't have an idol. Seemed incredibly dumb at the time but that split was never going to work out in their favour if Natalie has an idol and the 2 guys don't play theirs. Her 2 votes are cancelled and it's a 2-2 split with Ben and Denise. The revote also goes 2-2 because Tony/Sarah vote Denise, Nat and Michele vote Ben and they wouldn't switch. Unless Tony or Sarah agree to vote out Ben there they draw rocks except Nat and Michele are both safe so it's Tony and Sarah drawing rocks against each other. 3-2-1 split would have made more sense and Tony could have done that by himself. Nat plays an idol, Ben plays his to prevent the 2-1 if they're sure the votes go on him while Tony can save his idol by putting 1 vote on Denise. That's still really risky though. Tough to see a spot there where they save any idols in that spot without risking a lot.

 

[Leafs Fan 12]

Thinking back to Ben and Sarah not doing a 2-2-2 split on Natalie and Denise when Tony was begging them to in the final 6 because they were so sure Nat didn't have an idol. Seemed incredibly dumb at the time but that split was never going to work out in their favour if Natalie has an idol and the 2 guys don't play theirs. Her 2 votes are cancelled and it's a 2-2 split with Ben and Denise. The revote also goes 2-2 because Tony/Sarah vote Denise, Nat and Michele vote Ben and they wouldn't switch. Unless Tony or Sarah agree to vote out Ben there they draw rocks except Nat and Michele are both safe so it's Tony and Sarah drawing rocks against each other. 3-2-1 split would have made more sense and Tony could have done that by himself. Nat plays an idol, Ben plays his to prevent the 2-1 if they're sure the votes go on him while Tony can save his idol by putting 1 vote on Denise. That's still really risky though. Tough to see a spot there where they save any idols in that spot without risking a lot.

Ben, Sarah, Tony vote for Denise...Denise votes Natalie or Michelle, and Michelle/Natalie vote for Ben

 

[Canada4Gold]

Ben, Sarah, Tony vote for Denise...Denise votes Natalie or Michelle, and Michelle/Natalie vote for Ben

I assume you mean on the initial vote and not the revote since tied players don't vote on the revote? That would be a way to get to 5 keeping both their idols yes. However the goal was to put enough votes on Natalie that she goes home if she doesn't play an idol on herself, meanwhile Tony wanted to split on Denise as well to save both their idols. Natalie plays an idol then Denise goes home. His plan for that was a 2-2-2 split Natalie-Denise-Ben which neither Ben nor Sarah agreed to. If they do that and don't play their idols then Natalie's votes don't count and it's 2-2 Denise-Ben who then don't revote. Nat and Michele vote Ben, Tony and Sarah vote Denise. If nobody switches(and Nat and Michele won't) and they go to rocks Ben and Denise are safe. Nat and Michele are already safe from immunity and an idol so Tony and Sarah would draw rocks. So either 1 of them switches and Ben goes home, or 1 of them goes home. His plan wasn't viable. There was no possible plan that votes Natalie out if she doesn't play an idol, votes Denise out if she does, and allows Ben and Tony to keep their idols which was my point. While a split makes sense there initially, in that spot it doesn't work.

Yeah just voting Denise works but the plan A was obviously get Natalie out if she doesn't play an idol.

The only real play that gets out Natalie if she doesn't play an idol, Denise if she does and allows Tony to keep his idol is a 3-2-1, or 2-2-2 with Ben playing his idol. Tony could do that on his own with his 1 vote but is then risking that he's reading Nat and Michele correctly that they're voting for Ben and not him. He would have been correct but at final 6 with an idol that's very risky.

 

[Peasy]

Sarah was on RHAP and said the whole rant was a jury ploy and laughed at it. Said she felt there’d be slot of appreciation from the jury for a feminist lefty.

Geez how do you come to that conclusion listening to the interview...

Yes she states that she brought up the topic at the final 6 as a game move, but it was because people were not respecting her game due to the gender bias. She wanted to bring it to their attention now, rather than at the final tribal council to give them more time to think about it. She mentions how Tony gets credit for the spy nest yet she is the one actually doing all the leg work, extracting information etc. She then mentions this whole topic started because Boston Rob (someone she played with for 2 days) and Parvati (someone she didn't play with at all) were bashing her on EOE for no reason.

She then goes on to mention how people praised Tony for betraying Trish yet she got severe hate for blindsiding Andrea/SDT.

"It all came to light... Its the fact that men don't want to get beat by women and women dont want to get beat by women... I'm glad I was able to shed some light on this, give credit when credit is due. It doesn't matter if you're a guy or a girl, were all allowed to do the same thing."

 

[Peasy]

Yeah, I said this right after that anyone that didn't think it was a blatant play to the jury the day she found out that the jury thought Tony was playing a better game was straight up delusional.

Might want to listen to the actual interview. It was not just one or the other. It was a mix of both.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

Might want to listen to the actual interview. It was not just one or the other. It was a mix of both.

If Natalie doesn't come in and say the jury likes Tony's game more her speech never happens. It was purely a game move. I respect it as a game move but it just flat out was nothing more then a blatant game move and a last ditch effort to sway the jury.

 

[Peasy]

If Natalie doesn't come in and say the jury likes Tony's game more her speech never happens. It was purely a game move. I respect it as a game move but it just flat out was nothing more then a blatant game move and a last ditch effort to sway the jury.

It was both lol...

Why is it not allowed to be both? Why does it have to be one or the other? You haven't even listened to the interview yet youre claiming you know exactly her thought process behind it. She even mentions that she was glad to bring this issues to light and even references past examples not just from this season...

Natalie's comments made her realize the issue at hand. She even states that in the interview!

Natalie comes back from the edge. Makes comments about Tony as well as how other players such as Rob and Parv are saying fairly rude things about Sarah. Sarah comes to the realization of why she was so hated after game changers and the gender bias that tends to exist in survivor. She explains this at tribal council so the jury can see her game in a different light, as well as raising awareness to the general audience and the survivor world in general.

Did you forget that half that speech she was talking about how she was perceived after game changers?

 

[ThePhoenixx]

It was both lol...

Why is it not allowed to be both? Why does it have to be one or the other? You haven't even listened to the interview yet youre claiming you know exactly her thought process behind it. She even mentions that she was glad to bring this issues to light and even references past examples not just from this season...

Natalie's comments made her realize the issue at hand. She even states that in the interview!

Natalie comes back from the edge. Makes comments about Tony as well as how other players such as Rob and Parv are saying fairly rude things about Sarah. Sarah comes to the realization of why she was so hated after game changers and the gender bias that tends to exist in survivor. She explains this at tribal council so the jury can see her game in a different light, as well as raising awareness to the general audience and the survivor world in general.

Did you forget that half that speech she was talking about how she was perceived after game changers?

Because Natalie wanted to help Sarah win because Rah, Rah, right? That's why she told her these things.

Sarah got played. Natalie was literally grinning when Sarah made that speech because she knew she was winning the brain war. In a few hours Natalie turned a strong player who may win in to a weepy victim.

She even turned Ben into a weepy victim as well. He fell on his sword.

Sometimes people have to give credit where credit is due and not blame the world for their failings. Natalie was hungry and wanted to win. She crushed those two.