TV: Survivor: Winners at War - Season Discussion Thread

[spintheblackcircle]

the fire making challenge seems to benefit men

The fire making challenge? Players know months in advance if they may be on the show. If you don't learn how to make fire, that's on you, that's not a gender thing. That's....common sense. It's like going on the show and not know how to swim.

 

[Oilpeg]

Sophie was really out of it.

Covid 19 patient zero?

 

[JabbaJabba]

I mean Tony was pretty clearly running the show from merge to the end. To act like it was a 50/50 split is just straight up disingenuous.

Do we really know this? We only see a fraction of what happens on Survivor and only so little of what happens and what kind of conversations there are, what kind of relationships there are etc. The editing makes a big difference, if we only see Tony explaining a plan to the audience and to the other players, we are going to presume that it is his plan and give credit to him. Here is a good article about editing in Survivor and a good example how in season 19 the editing made the credit of a strategic move go to another player. Obviously this season they wanted to build up Tony so they want him to look good and like a deserving winner.

And no I'm not saying the workload was nice 50-50, I don't know what it was, but I just want to point out that we don't know much of what happens on the island, but we get a glimpse of it. It is entirely possible that Sarah is crazy and Tony took her as far as he could on his own. I think Sarah was playing a good game but I don't think we see her as much in the episodes. I have seen a few secret scene clips from this season and they show for example how good relationship Sarah and Kim had. Sarah also had good relationships with a bunch of jury members like Sophie, Tyson and Ben was even willing to throw his own game under the bus for her. If she had gotten to the end, she would have collected a bunch of votes.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

Yeah because Tony was the winner of the season. Of course they're going to build up their winner, its called edgic.

I also think a majority of Sarah's speech was just about Survivor in general, and not specifically this season and her situation.

3 women have won in the past 15 seasons. Idol finds are like 70% men, first vote outs are often women, the fire making challenge seems to benefit men, Jeff's favourite players consistently being males etc.

I think it took 20 years for a female to win over a male in the final 2 in big brother.

Also the whole "how can Sarah believe Nat after knowing her one day" argument. They were friends coming into this season outside the game. But in the end it was still a poor judgment call.

Oh come on if you can not see how Sarah's speech wasn't self serving I am really not sure what to tell you. I do think there is systemic issues but if anyone thinks Sarah was speaking solely for her deep issue with it and not as a way to try and win the game and get in the jury's ear before final tribal, like I don't think it could be more obvious. Saying that it was a smart play by her(one of her only ones last night). I mean if you are going to go the edit route then how do we know any of the best players are actually the best players? It is really a useless conversation and all we really have to go off of is what we actually know. I mean we could run down every season at that point and open up that can of worms.

I think Sarah is a top tier winner and I do think she played a very good to great season....but nobody can convince me that her season was on par with Tony's with anything based in fact because there are none. Also explain how fire making plays into a male bias? Everyone knows at this point going into the season that two people are making fire to get into F3. Making fire isn't "easier" for men to do. You either can do it or you can't.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

Do we really know this? We only see a fraction of what happens on Survivor and only so little of what happens and what kind of conversations there are, what kind of relationships there are etc. The editing makes a big difference, if we only see Tony explaining a plan to the audience and to the other players, we are going to presume that it is his plan and give credit to him. Here is a good article about editing in Survivor and a good example how in season 19 the editing made the credit of a strategic move go to another player. Obviously this season they wanted to build up Tony so they want him to look good and like a deserving winner.

And no I'm not saying the workload was nice 50-50, I don't know what it was, but I just want to point out that we don't know much of what happens on the island, but we get a glimpse of it. It is entirely possible that Sarah is crazy and Tony took her as far as he could on his own. I think Sarah was playing a good game but I don't think we see her as much in the episodes. I have seen a few secret scene clips from this season and they show for example how good relationship Sarah and Kim had. Sarah also had good relationships with a bunch of jury members like Sophie, Tyson and Ben was even willing to throw his own game under the bus for her. If she had gotten to the end, she would have collected a bunch of votes.

Right obviously editing is a thing....but at that point then how do you accept anyones legacy in the game? If you aren't going to accept the game and the moves that it was shown that Tony made then what makes any previous winner or any of the other greatest players any more valid as there were undoubtedly edits that went into what was seen? Also and this is a pretty crucial part of the whole editing argument, if Sarah played a better game then Tony and beat him she would have ended up with the better edit. The results dictate the edit, not the other way around.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

Sarah also made two pretty critical errors right at the end game, not thinking there was any chance that Natalie had an idol was incredibly naive....and then she let the talk of Tony being the jury's favourite get into her head and made the move on Ben. If she wanted to win she needed Ben to take out Tony in fire. Got enamored with the "big" move and it cost her.

Her game reads were consistently off. Misplayed vote steal, got blindsided at the Sophie vote, had multiple confessionals bashing Tony's social game saying hers was better, fumbled the F6 and F5.

 

[spintheblackcircle]

Denise said she ALMOST voted Tony out instead of Sandra when she blindsided her. Man....it's impossible to even predict how this ends if she takes out Tony instead of Sandra.

 

[Peasy]

The fire making challenge? Players know months in advance if they may be on the show. If you don't learn how to make fire, that's on you, that's not a gender thing. That's....common sense. It's like going on the show and not know how to swim.

Statistically speaking it favours men.

Yes anyone can practice it, but throughout the entire game, I'm willing to bet that it is typically males that tend the fire, start it, build it etc. This gives them more experience over time.

Its a stupid rule that Jeff implemented because many of the season favourites were consistently being voted out at the final 4.

 

[spintheblackcircle]

Statistically speaking it favours men.

How??? Because it's been that way on the show?

How about every challenge where you have to balance on a tiny ledge? Statistically speaking, I don't remember a man EVER winning a balance challenge. But they have them every year still.

 

[Peasy]

How??? Because it's been that way on the show?

How about every challenge where you have to balance on a tiny ledge? Statistically speaking, I don't remember a man EVER winning a balance challenge. But they have them every year still.

Witches Coven (episode)
It happens often.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

Statistically speaking it favours men.

Yes anyone can practice it, but throughout the entire game, I'm willing to bet that it is typically males that tend the fire, start it, build it etc. This gives them more experience over time.

Its a stupid rule that Jeff implemented because many of the season favourites were consistently being voted out at the final 4.

Just because more men statistically win at fire then women do does not make the contest biased towards men lol the only season I can handle the grips over making fire is the first season it was implemented and just dropped on them at F4. I didn't like that at all. At this point if you are not prepared to make a fire, whether you are a man or a women that is solely on the individual. It is the same as the "statistically women find less idols" well go find them then?

 

[Peasy]

 

[spintheblackcircle]

Sophie was really out of it.

 

[hoglund]

Anyways is it recency bias to call Tony the GOAT? That was one of the best games ever played. Not a single vote against all season despite being the #1 threat for the majority of it.

I used to think that Boston Rob was the best ever, but now it's Tony.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

Apparently Tony also created two fake idols that weren't shown on TV. One he created and showed Nick to make him think he had two idols and supposedly helped Nick jump on board in working with him and then a 2nd at F5 he made for Sarah which she then showed to Natalie which is the reason that they went for Ben instead. It actually seems like his game was somehow more impressive then what was actually shown in the final edit based off of the post game interviews.

 

[SouthGeorge]

Apparently Tony also created two fake idols that weren't shown on TV. One he created and showed Nick to make him think he had two idols and supposedly helped Nick jump on board in working with him and then a 2nd at F5 he made for Sarah which she then showed to Natalie which is the reason that they went for Ben instead. It actually seems like his game was somehow more impressive then what was actually shown in the final edit based off of the post game interviews.

Why wouldn't they show this? Tony is the GOAT.

 

[LeafalCrusader]

Was a pretty good season after Island of the Idols which was some of the worst crap I can recall. Still not a fan of Edge of Extinction or the fire making challenge.

 

[Peasy]

I personally enjoyed EOE this season and I think it played out great, almost as good as you could hope for. It brought us some great moments, and allowed more screen time for the majority of players that we will never see again. Ethan is a perfect example of why I enjoyed it. I felt like his best moments were out there and he will be more remember for that rather than an old schooler coming back after 17 years and going out quickly.

Could there have been some improvements sure, but that can apply to almost anything.

With that said, I don't think it should not exist in a standard season.

 

[Glenn Isildur Healy]

I feel like Sarah gets underrated because of how great Tony is.
I have to go over my rankings but Sarah is almost certainly a Top 10 All-Time player

You may forget that in pre-season half the cast chose Sarah as the player they want voted out first if they had a choice. It's because of how great of a player she was in game changers
Survivor has become more a social game than a strategic game and her social game is one of the best
She changed other player's perception of her

 

[Maplebeasts]

I feel like Sarah gets underrated because of how great Tony is.
I have to go over my rankings but Sarah is almost certainly a Top 10 All-Time player

You may forget that in pre-season half the cast chose Sarah as the player they want voted out first if they had a choice. It's because of how great of a player she was in game changers
Survivor has become more a social game than a strategic game and her social game is one of the best
She changed other player's perception of her

I agree but any player worth their salt will pick off the very likeable contestants well before finale night. I'd say it's more about being social without being so likeable that you're perceived as a serious threat. That and being a skilled strategist are the two most valuable things in the game. That's why I personally had Yul as a sleeper top 4-5 player heading in to this.

 

[koyvoo]

A lot of interesting and contradictory things being said by contestants in post finale interviews and through social media.

These are highlights from a very long live Instagram session from Danni.

- Parvati and Danni were an instant duo and Parvati initially wanted to vote out Michele, changed her mind to Natalie.
- Ben told Jeremy that Danni was the one who came up with the Natalie vote when it was Parvati
- Jeremy went off on Danni after the Natalie vote and accused her of going through his bag (when she didn't)
- Old school were the ones who flipped on Danni, Adam, Jeremy, and Tony texted Danni after the episode saying how unfair the edit was and how Danni had no choice in that situation
- Adam told her that her only option was to try and get Parvati out.
- The paranoia came from people who were calling her out about the false Jeremy-bag accusation and spreading rumours.
- Natalie, Amber and Danni were amazing friends on the start, Natalie completely excluded them later in the game.
- Amber and Danni are very close friends.
- Natalie and Rob stole Danni, Ethan, and Parvati's peanut butter. Natalie and Rob ate ALL of their own and gave none to Amber too.
- Is incredibly respectful of Tony's game.
- Yul caught a fish for Danni because she was so skinny and he felt bad because Natalie and Rob stole her peanut butter.
- There is no beef between Danni & Kim, Danni just forgot to follow her.
- Wanted to work with Sandra and Sarah.
- Thinks Sarah deserved a better edit than what she got
- YUL AND NATALIE. Yul went to get the rice from the mountain, and when Adam got voted out he offered to take Adam to get the rice and it took forever. Natalie was SO mad that they took too long to get the rice and when he came back she screamed at him calling him selfish, saying that all he ever does is stay by himself and go fishing all day. Got so bad to the point where Wendell stepped in and told Natalie to drop it. This is what caused Natalie to lose those 3 votes and probably lose the game.
- Was really sad Michele did not get any votes.
- Actually loves Parvati, thinks she's a great player and a great mom.
- Wants Brian Corridan to play again, wishes they could've worked together.
- People on EOE said a ton of bad things about Sarah.
- Production wanted her back for several seasons but couldn't due to having kids.
- Amber kept saying she was there for Rob, she wished Amber had a chance because she felt as though Amber could've done really well.
- Keeps in touch with Brian, Jamie, Brandon, Stephenie, Gary, Brooke, and others.
- Started an organisation to encourage young girls and boys to achieve their dreams and support each other.
- Started a charity to support single moms, all earnings from her cameos go to this charity.
- Thinks she would've done much better if she'd had a "dress rehearsal" and seen how the new school game works.
- REALLY wants to play again, production still really likes her she just didn't get as much of an edit because there was just so much to show.
- Thinks Sandra is the queen, but Tony is the greatest.
- There was a "mean girls" clique on Edge who spoke down to so many people.
- Was really upset with Wendell's edit.
- Was bitter towards with Michele at the time because she didn't believe Danni's plea to keep her being that Parvati initially wanted Michele out.
- Was shocked by Tyson because she thought he was awful, but ended up really loving him.
- Gave her fire token to Denise because she was the only one who listened to Danni.
- Sophie was sick for quite a while after the season, found it hard to do anything at Ponderosa.
- Yul had to go toilet in the middle of tribal council for 20 minutes.
- Natalie probably would have won if she made fire against Tony.
- Fractured her foot in the coconut challenge.
- Had a three million dollar modelling contract in Europe when she was younger.
- Had skin cancer because of her time on Edge.
- Still has scars from the bugs in Guatemala.
- She wants to play again really badly.
- It was actually Tyson, Parvati, and Danni who were the closest in the first returnee challenge - it was edited to be Rob though.
- REALLY wanted to meet Kim properly, loves her.
- Sarah came into the live and told Danni that she loves her <3333
- LOVES her fans.

 

[The Shadow]

One thing is clear. Our reality and opinions based on that reality isn’t actually what really happened in a lot of cases

The editing makes a huge difference to entertain. I would have loved to see Natalie yelling at Yul for taking too long.

 

[Nocashstyle]

Just finished the finale.

I’m just happy Natalie didn’t win. She bought her way back into the game. She was on Edge of Extinction the longest, so of course she will have the most opportunities to accrue fire tokens. She almost didn’t even win that first challenge even with the advantages.

Tony basically played a flawless game. I really wish Sarah made it to the final three as well. She deserved to win just as much. Her only mistake was how adamant she was Natalie didn’t have an idol.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

1. Tony dominated this game. You can claim any season is down to editing, and maybe it is, but we only see what’s edited, and having watched every season, I can’t remember a better winning game than what they edited for us to see in this season. He beat all winners. Think about that. No bad players. You can claim some of these winners weren’t the best in their season, and maybe they weren’t, but nobody was bad. The other two in the final three were someone voted out first and someone else who was considered weak because her game wasn’t flashy. Yet, they both won the game. There are no easy outs in this season.

2. Tony’s instincts are crazy. He was right about Natalie having an idol both times, and at least the first time Ben and Sarah simply were wrong. If Tony was wrong the first time, he doesn’t win the game and is voted out. The second time, he somehow benefited from Sarah blindsiding him, so I guess he also had some luck.

3. Tony was gone at 5 if he didn’t win that immunity challenge. And you have to give the guy props for how he won that. In basically any other season, he doesn’t have to deal with an EOE player coming in and nullifying his idol like that. Target was places squarely on him. Tony played as good of a game as I’ve seen. Big target coming in, big target throughout but in such control that no one placed a vote on him the whole season, came up clutch when needed, did well in every aspect of the game, probably had the single greatest individual episode in Survivor history and did all of it with a flair for Survivor that no one really rivals in the show’s history. As Wendell wrote in voting for Tony to win, the GOAT.

3. I have a lot less respect for the people that voted for Natalie. I could understand if Rob or Amber were in the final and the other voted for their spouse. Family is bigger than a game, but if you are so good to have won Survivor, you should be good enough at compartmentalizing the personal relationships you make in the game and who played the best game. Parvati, Tyson, Ethan and Jeremy all went down as Survivor players in my estimation because of how they voted here.

4. I thought Michelle played a much better game than Natalie. Neither should’ve gotten a vote, but Michelle was second best of that final three, in my opinion. You have to get over that Michelle does not run the game, and then you can appreciate how she plays. She’s actually a good Survivor player, and I thought a deserving winner. She certainly held her own on this season for one of the weaker winners coming in, and I think coming out of the season you can no longer place her any lower than around middle of the pack. Great social game, clutch when needed and good in challenges.

5. I don’t even know that Natalie played well. Don’t get me wrong, what she did was not easy, but she showed on this season that her game is almost entirely brute force. Credit to her for his athletic game. She’s one of the most athletic people ever on the show and that got her back into the game and with an idol from EOE, but she played her idol wrong initially, was probably going to play it wrong if Sarah didn’t want Ben our, and she completely miscalculated her ability to beat Tony. She had no chance to beat him. Even if she’s not great at fire, that was her only opportunity to win and she didn’t take it. Rob said as much.

6. I don’t mind fire tokens, but get rid of EOE. It nearly ruined a historic season.

7. I don’t understand the Sarah hate. She’s probably a top five player ever, in my estimation. Definitely top ten. The back half of this season she didn’t play well, but she was the best player the front half of the season. That counts for something. She probably wins if she beats Tony at fire. She’s had three very respectable showings, including a win, she’s part of probably the best alliance in the show’s history, she’s really good at forming personal relationships in the game, she’s pretty good strategically and in challenges. You can definitely say she’s cocky, but so what? It doesn’t make her bad at survivor. 18 other players also didn’t win the game.

 

[h2]

The second Tony asked Natalie what was stopping her from facing him in fire and how she admitted she didn't think she could beat him, that's when I knew Natalie had no chance at winning this. There was only one path to victory, and that was through beating Tony in fire. You can see the jury not pleased when Natalie explained her decision to not step up to the plate and I'm having difficulty understanding her thought process there. You can't win unless you beat Tony yourself, so what is there to lose? A chance is better than no chance.

Great season overall, I don't think there has ever been a tighter alliance than Tony-Ben-Sarah, what a power that trio turned out to be. As for Tony, I think he played a perfect game, and that's a very hard thing to do and IMO the most impressive win in Survivor history. He's the GOAT at this point. I'm disappointed that it wasn't an unanimous vote for Tony based on how perfect his game was.