SuperLeague a done deal- New York Times

[bleedblue1223]

The other annoying part is they want the NA system of guaranteed income at the top level, but non of the drawbacks of that system. They won't want a hard salary cap or soft cap with a luxury tax or bigger revenue sharing. They won't want a amateur draft, even though that's not really possible, but a system like MLB has on international signings is definitely possible for youth players.

The big/elite clubs already had the best possible setup, but they got greedy and are pushing it too far. If you want no relegation and guaranteed top level income, then you need some of the genuine drawbacks of that system.

 

[DanielPlainview]

The league also has 15 teams that will be mainstays... Domestic leagues and contests will be altered if they exist in the same fashion at all. Lower league teams will see less of a trickle-down effect, and there will never really be a Leicester triumph again. So many teams that have been taking steps to challenge the big clubs are also just thrown to the wayside.

The Blackburn/Leicester phantom season occurs so infrequently it’s not worth considering. Can you name a club that has built from nothing to a point of consistent competition with Europe’s big teams without big spending and outside investment?

The pyramid system is just a means for small clubs to leach off the big ones. Promotion/relegation is fun and all but the reality is top flight domestic leagues have 12-15 “mainstays” as it is with a few teams bobbing back and forth between the top flight and second. And there’s no hope for Dagenham and Redbridge ever being anything but a small local team.

 

[Jack Straw]

Got squashed pretty quickly though, didn't it?

Not really, it changed and expanded over time but there are teams in MLB that can trace their origins back to the days before professional leagues.

 

[BMann]

Poor Juve has a good reason to go all in on this. They're virtually out of next year's CL, and they got bullied by Porto, Lyon and Ajax in the last 3 editions. Poor them.

Wonderful family the Agnellis. Unimpeachable like their club......

 

[Evilo]

The Blackburn/Leicester phantom season occurs so infrequently it’s not worth considering. Can you name a club that has built from nothing to a point of consistent competition with Europe’s big teams without big spending and outside investment?

The pyramid system is just a means for small clubs to leach off the big ones. Promotion/relegation is fun and all but the reality is top flight domestic leagues have 12-15 “mainstays” as it is with a few teams bobbing back and forth between the top flight and second. And there’s no hope for Dagenham and Redbridge ever being anything but a small local team.

Porto, Shaktar, Ajax, Lyon, and plenty of others have had good results in Europe without being helped by big financial backing. Atalanta the last two years (and likely next year). Sevilla. And so many others.

 

[MS]

I doubt it. Most are paid obscene wages anyway and if they get offered double their protestations will soon be overcome. Most have one principle they live by and that is to get as rich as possible. As with the numerous tax dodgers of the EPL as seen in the Paradise Papers.

Agreed on the money, but if FIFA bans players from representing their countries internationally that will be a massive deal. Playing for your country still matters, a lot.

 

[DanielPlainview]

You can say that about supporters like me, sure. We chose big clubs because they were the easiest to follow and because, well, in my case, they had players I like.

You cannot ask a person from that city/neighborhood to change their views on clubs that have supported for generations. I understand what you say business wise, but that's not how fans think about their clubs. Some of them even played in the youth teams. Boys from the city became national heroes. I mean, it is mythos, but it does matter.

People need to understand that the amateurism-pro relationship in the US only exists because collegiate sport was popular before professional sport with the exception of baseball, which has the closest thing to football in developmental structure found in the US. The fear that the Super League is going to abandon it all and behave like the NFL is misplaced. You will not have a draft or an all-star game. You will not lose your pyramid system. You will not lose your local academies.

Fans who cling to bygone eras always end up in a situation where they must choose to change their perspective or pick or new team. That time seems to be now for a lot of people.

 

[BMann]

The Blackburn/Leicester phantom season occurs so infrequently it’s not worth considering. Can you name a club that has built from nothing to a point of consistent competition with Europe’s big teams without big spending and outside investment?

The pyramid system is just a means for small clubs to leach off the big ones. Promotion/relegation is fun and all but the reality is top flight domestic leagues have 12-15 “mainstays” as it is with a few teams bobbing back and forth between the top flight and second. And there’s no hope for Dagenham and Redbridge ever being anything but a small local team.

Blackburn had a rich local who wanted the best for his side. So they went out and bought success to an extent. Leicester have rich backers as well. However your understanding of football is limited. Football has been here for over a hundred and thirty years. Once upon a time all the top clubs were in the north and west. The London clubs were amateurs till the 1900's. You had cycles where teams had great managers who BUILT sides with craft and careful signings. That continued with Portsmouth, Huddersfield, Wolverhampton, Manchester United,Leeds and Liverpool but since the creation of the PL that has all ended.

No so called smaller clubs win domestic cups. It is a rarity to see a Wigan win. But what memories for those fans. For a whole lifetime. My club rising from the bottom division with the same catchment area as Dagenham & Redbridge and so simply disparaged by you as something akin to dirty parasites to finishing runners up to Liverpool and entering the UEFA Cup. Those dreams and ambitions have been trampled on by the so called elite (elite in terms of greed) and are set to be destroyed.

Manchester City and Chelsea who are now pushing this farce were a matter of years ago just also rans. 8000 strong crowds at Stamford Bridge. Money and plenty of it has pushed them to the top and now they seek to do this ? Other great clubs like the Villa, Sunderland, Nottingham Forest twice European champions are also set to become non entities ? How shameful of those that concocted this scheme of Mammon.

 

[91Fedorov91]

The other annoying part is they want the NA system of guaranteed income at the top level, but non of the drawbacks of that system. They won't want a hard salary cap or soft cap with a luxury tax or bigger revenue sharing. They won't want a amateur draft, even though that's not really possible, but a system like MLB has on international signings is definitely possible for youth players.

The big/elite clubs already had the best possible setup, but they got greedy and are pushing it too far. If you want no relegation and guaranteed top level income, then you need some of the genuine drawbacks of that system.

I'm definitely for a Salary Cap and i'm a Man United Fan. Im curious how fans with no chance to win each season feel. At least in North American Sports if you hire the right people you have as good a shot as any team on Winning a Championship. In Europe it's the same teams in every league every year.

 

[DanielPlainview]

Porto, Shaktar, Ajax, Lyon, and plenty of others have had good results in Europe without being helped by big financial backing. Atalanta the last two years (and likely next year). Sevilla. And so many others.

These are the best teams in smaller leagues and have been part of European competition for a long time. Ajax was once a powerhouse. These are not examples of what I’m talking about.

Others have had short term success. It wasn’t long ago that clubs like Villarreal and Valencia were “up and comers” but they eventually faded.

 

[Evilo]

These are the best teams in smaller leagues and have been part of European competition for a long time. Ajax was once a powerhouse. These are not examples of what I’m talking about.

Others have had short term success. It wasn’t long ago that clubs like Villarreal and Valencia were “up and comers” but they eventually faded.

You said teams that challenged in Europe without getting some financial help. I gave you numerous names, including the team that always wins Europa League. At best 4th in its league (which is not small).
So yeah.
Lyon was in Division 2 in the late 80s. Aulas took them and made them CL semi finalists (twice). L1 is also not a small league.
So yeah.

Your argument just doesn't hold water.

 

[NJDevs26]

Agreed on the money, but if FIFA bans players from representing their countries internationally that will be a massive deal. Playing for your country still matters, a lot.

Yeah and players have so much power in soccer they can pretty well engineer transfers by sitting out the Superleague games to retain their international eligibility

 

[DanielPlainview]

You said teams that challenged in Europe without getting some financial help. I gave you numerous names, including the team that always wins Europa League. At best 4th in its league (which is not small).
So yeah.
Lyon was in Division 2 in the late 80s. Aulas took them and made them CL semi finalists (twice). L1 is also not a small league.
So yeah.

Your argument just doesn't hold water.

That is not what I said. The fact you have to change my argument to make yours kind of proves that it is your argument that doesn’t hold water.

If Ajax, a historic club that once was at the peak of European competition, is now a feeder team to the would-be Super League clubs, they should tell you all you need to know about where the game is today.

The 80s was 30+ years ago in a completely different environment.

If you’re a small club today and want to challenge Super League teams, you have to have a lot going for you, particularly the metro area you’re in.

 

[Evilo]

 

[robertmac43]

The Blackburn/Leicester phantom season occurs so infrequently it’s not worth considering. Can you name a club that has built from nothing to a point of consistent competition with Europe’s big teams without big spending and outside investment?

It's not just the domestic league that provides "phantom seasons". Plenty of examples form the CL and EL that will no longer be the same due to some of the top clubs leaving. There is also an element of the week in/week out opportunity for an upset. One of the best weeks of my football fandom was this year when Brighton beat Spurs and Liverpool in one week. It was like back-to-back cup wins for us Brighton fans, and now there won't even be a chance for those kinds of moments.

The pyramid system is just a means for small clubs to leach off the big ones. Promotion/relegation is fun and all but the reality is top flight domestic leagues have 12-15 “mainstays” as it is with a few teams bobbing back and forth between the top flight and second. And there’s no hope for Dagenham and Redbridge ever being anything but a small local team.

A lot of the money supports grassroots football too, it's not as simple as small club leaches money from big ones. This money is needed for some great initiatives that go on throughout the lower end of the pyramid. Between money going elsewhere and the pandemic, many 'small local teams' may not exist anymore.

As for the relegation comment, it sounds like you are just looking off the last5-10 years of the prem. There are plenty of unique stories across Europe, heck Brighton were in league 2 not that long ago and they were able to battle their way up the top flight!

 

[Evilo]

That is not what I said. The fact you have to change my argument to make yours kind of proves that it is your argument that doesn’t hold water.

The 80s was 30+ years ago in a completely different environment

Oh look WHO's changing?
You said THIS :

Can you name a club that has built from nothing to a point of consistent competition with Europe’s big teams without big spending and outside investment?

I named you SEVERAL teams.
And Aulas TOOK them in 87, and built them slowly. I didn't say they were competitive in the 80s. FFS, they were in the semis last year with a bunch of players from their academy !!!
I didn't change the argument.

 

[Machinehead]

I'm hearing rumors that clubs will acknowledge past titles as Super League titles.

For example, Real Madrid would enter the ESL already 13-time ESL Champions.

 

[Bringer of Jollity]

I mean I know it's all financially driven to keep them anyway but it makes for an empty gesture for all the outrage and then to proceed to do absolutely nothing

EPL/FA kind of reaping what they sowed here. They allowed the disparity and complete dependency on the big 6 to occur because they were all too happy to take the substantial sponsorship and rights monies that came with it. Now if they try to wrest some semblance of control back it is only going to be with some severe financial hurt attached. They don't have the nerve or collective will to do it, which is really the only scenario that probably has a chance of averting their irrelevancy long-term. But as a naive soccer fan that would be happy to watch (and probably buy a streaming package to continue watching) a non-big 6 EPL, I'd sure love to see it.

 

[bleedblue1223]

I'm very curious what the reactions will be when the games start and also when stadiums can be at full capacity. Will the same level of anger be maintained? Will it be enough to force some sort of a change? If players and fans oppose it enough, they can make it fail horribly, but I don't think that will happen.

 

[Bringer of Jollity]

I'm very curious what the reactions will be when the games start and stadiums can be at full capacity.

Undoubtedly millions tuning in and not an empty seat in the house.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

I'm hearing rumors that clubs will acknowledge past titles as Super League titles.

For example, Real Madrid would enter the ESL already 13-time ESL Champions.

Shamless loool

 

[DanielPlainview]

It's not just the domestic league that provides "phantom seasons". Plenty of examples form the CL and EL that will no longer be the same due to some of the top clubs leaving. There is also an element of the week in/week out opportunity for an upset. One of the best weeks of my football fandom was this year when Brighton beat Spurs and Liverpool in one week. It was like back-to-back cup wins for us Brighton fans, and now there won't even be a chance for those kinds of moments.

They're not leaving. Maybe in 20 years they'll think about it, but it doesn't make any business sense for them to leave. It would cut off a huge revenue stream and alienate too many people.

A lot of the money supports grassroots football too, it's not as simple as small club leaches money from big ones. This money is needed for some great initiatives that go on throughout the lower end of the pyramid. Between money going elsewhere and the pandemic, many 'small local teams' may not exist anymore.

As for the relegation comment, it sounds like you are just looking off the last5-10 years of the prem. There are plenty of unique stories across Europe, heck Brighton were in league 2 not that long ago and they were able to battle their way up the top flight!

I don't see the great disruption of the pyramid happening. I think it's a bit of hysteria, honestly.

I'm well aware of teams moving up and down the pyramid. I'm not talking about that by itself.

It seems you guys are wanting to cling to the fantasy of teams being able rise through pro/rel and selling off their best players to build and eventually challenge the biggest clubs for years. It doesn't happen. Not in the UK, not anywhere. What you do find is sometimes a club with potential (underserved market) gets a new owner or investment group, they dump a bunch of money in, and create a competitive team. Or they'll have a promising crop of young players come through and lead them to success before they're eventually sold off. Almost all of these attempts do not work in the long run. Manchester City and Chelsea are the exceptions only because their owners don't care about dumping obscene amounts of money on players in perpetuity.

 

[Live in the Now]

I'm very curious what the reactions will be when the games start and also when stadiums can be at full capacity. Will the same level of anger be maintained? Will it be enough to force some sort of a change? If players and fans oppose it enough, they can make it fail horribly, but I don't think that will happen.

It depends on the team. I'm sure Liverpool supporters won't ever support it. These are the same people that banned a scummy newspaper for thirty two years.

Like I said though, there was a way to do this properly. The ECA should have lifted some of the CL format, made it an open competition with five or six leagues of ten teams based on domestic performance and qualifiers. Not in any way a closed competition. Coordinate it with the domestic leagues to stagger these games so that there's some form of game on every day for people to watch. Then after the leagues are done, make a knockout competition. Then they should have blocked out UEFA and cited how much money UEFA has stolen from the teams over the years. To do it this way is just so f***ing dumb.

 

[Machinehead]

Shamless loool

This is certainly not how I wanted to win six trophies in one day!

 

[bleedblue1223]

To play the other side, I've always hated how certain leagues are dominated by a very small group of clubs, and is there any other reasonable solution than those clubs creating a league for themselves where they field their A squad there, and treat their domestic league as 2nd fiddle? I agree it's a terrible way to get there, but maybe finally domestic leagues can have some parity and other clubs winning?