Sundin versus Kessel

[ACC1224]

kessel just isnt that good ..its the best we have but he is what he is .....anybody who thought u were getting sundin ,or gilmour ,or sittler or lanny mcdonald or salming ,in kessel is crazy!
boston would have kept any of those guys and simply paid them ......we got a boston reject basically ......decent player but no hero

Dallas got the Boston reject in Seguin, Kessel wouldn't sign there hence the trade.

 

[hockeyfanz*]

We never won with Sundin as our captain either. To be honest, I think we had a better change with Gilmour. He just exemplified pugnacity. If we acquired him when he was 23, we'd end the drought.

Ummmm...I loved Dougie as much as the next guy..but like Wendel..he gets waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much admiration from Leafs Nation. I think it was the missing teeth. Made him look "gritty"...

Don't get me wrong, he was a great player but overall I don't think he was as good as Mats. I said it. I believe it. Just compare their numbers.

Dougie...

NHL Totals 1474 450 964 1414 1301 182 60 128 188 235

Mats

NHL Totals 1346 564 785 1349 1093 91 38 44 82 74

Mats has better numbers...more goals in less games by a long shot....second most OT goals in history. Bigger..stronger..more skilled.

I laugh at the hate Sundin gets from Toronto sports fans...he is constantly being compared to guys like Clark and Gilmour...and said to be not as good. Pretty much a joke.

 

[hockeyfanz*]

Dallas got the Boston reject in Seguin, Kessel wouldn't sign there hence the trade.

Boston reject Seguin... What a joke.

 

[MastuhNinks]

Ummmm...I loved Dougie as much as the next guy..but like Wendel..he gets waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much admiration from Leafs Nation. I think it was the missing teeth. Made him look "gritty"...

Don't get me wrong, he was a great player but overall I don't think he was as good as Mats. I said it. I believe it. Just compare their numbers.

Dougie...

NHL Totals 1474 450 964 1414 1301 182 60 128 188 235

Mats

NHL Totals 1346 564 785 1349 1093 91 38 44 82 74

Mats has better numbers...more goals in less games by a long shot....second most OT goals in history. Bigger..stronger..more skilled.

I laugh at the hate Sundin gets from Toronto sports fans...he is constantly being compared to guys like Clark and Gilmour...and said to be not as good. Pretty much a joke.

Sundin had the better career as a Leaf but you'd have a hard time arguing that he had a better overall career than Gilmour. Gilmour at his peak was as good an offensive player as Sundin, plus high-level defensive play (top 5 in Selke voting 5 years in a row, including a win and a runner-up).

I think Gilmour is worshipped in Toronto for his playoff heroics, and rightfully so... 63 points in 39 playoff games in 93 and 94 is pretty insane, especially when you factor in the fact that he was a two-way player.

Sundin I felt was clutch in Toronto and always reliable, but at the same time he never had an explosive, dominant playoff run that Gilmour did. His body of work as a Leaf is still definitely more impressive though, in my opinion.

 

[hockeyfanz*]

Sundin had the better career as a Leaf but you'd have a hard time arguing that he had a better overall career than Gilmour. Gilmour at his peak was as good an offensive player as Sundin, plus high-level defensive play (top 5 in Selke voting 5 years in a row, including a win and a runner-up).

I think Gilmour is worshipped in Toronto for his playoff heroics, and rightfully so... 63 points in 39 playoff games in 93 and 94 is pretty insane, especially when you factor in the fact that he was a two-way player.

Sundin I felt was clutch in Toronto and always reliable, but at the same time he never had an explosive, dominant playoff run that Gilmour did. His body of work as a Leaf is still definitely more impressive though, in my opinion.

Well..seeing that this is a Leafs board and we are talking about great Leafs (ie Sundin vs. Kessel)...I don't see the relevance of Gilmour winning a Cup with the Flames and having 5 Selke nominees. I also disagree he had a better career..

Sundin outscored him by over a 100 goals in over 100 LESS GAMES...Sundin was also captain clutch..scoring big goals.

 

[Drugstorecowboi]

Another similarity between them will end up being that they were not properly appreciated by this fan base until they were gone.

You gotta remember that when Sundin came to the Leafs we had Gilmour, Clark et al. By the time those guys left and Sundin took their spot as the top player on the team his work ethic was not up to snuff or on par with Dougie's and Wendy's. A lot of fans were disappointed with Mats because honestly during the playoffs he'd be invisible for a game, or hurt his finger and sit out an entire series while guys like Roberts, Tucker, Mogiilny were playing with far worse injuries.

For me personally, Sundin was my least favourite Leafs captain because of this, and I know a lot of other Leaf fans that are in the same boat. Years went on, a younger generation of Leafs grew up watching Mats score big goals, but never any playoffs. So, a lot of the Leafs fans that grew up watching this team during his tenure when we never made the playoffs have nothing but love for Mats. He was always the best player on those very bad Leafs team, he was always the most "clutch" player on those very bad Leafs team. They never experienced a Leafs team that had better overall offensive/clutch players than Mats.

All of that said, comparing Mats to Phil is like apples and oranges. See if Mats was a right winger, and was simply there to produce goals as oppose to captain the team - he'd have much more respect from the overall fanbase.

Phil does his job well. Most guys that score a lot of goals are minus players. See Ovie this year he's in a -40? -50? A guy like Phil needs better overall support (see our weak defensemen).

That said - if Phil was the captain of the Leafs he'd be less respected than Mats was.

 

[pooleboy]

if we had both we would be a stanley cup contender. to bad we only get to have 1 at a time.

 

[The Legend]

Ken Bumgarner versus Colton Orr. Your calls next!

 

[The_Chosen_One]

Ummmm...I loved Dougie as much as the next guy..but like Wendel..he gets waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much admiration from Leafs Nation. I think it was the missing teeth. Made him look "gritty"...

Don't get me wrong, he was a great player but overall I don't think he was as good as Mats. I said it. I believe it. Just compare their numbers.

Dougie...

NHL Totals 1474 450 964 1414 1301 182 60 128 188 235

Mats

NHL Totals 1346 564 785 1349 1093 91 38 44 82 74

Mats has better numbers...more goals in less games by a long shot....second most OT goals in history. Bigger..stronger..more skilled.

I laugh at the hate Sundin gets from Toronto sports fans...he is constantly being compared to guys like Clark and Gilmour...and said to be not as good. Pretty much a joke.

Honestly, I'd like someone like Dave Keon. Someone who can neutralise top lines if he is in a scoring slump. Sundin was more like one of the lethargic-looking athletes who can produce excellent numbers offensively. He didn't have an elite two-way game even though he was a SH threat. Nowadays, the teams that tend to go further have that elite-way ability. Crosby is an exception, but the Datsyuks, Zetterbergs, Toews, Krejci/ Bergeron, etc suggests that we're moving towards that kind of NHL.

 

[Cap'n Flavour]

Kessel's era-adjusted scoring totals are comparable to Sundin's. The difference is that Sundin kept it up until age 36, for 16 seasons in a row. 10 years from now we'll see if Kessel has that kind of longevity in him.

 

[socko]

Dallas got the Boston reject in Seguin, Kessel wouldn't sign there hence the trade.

I can't believe Boston won a cup with that Toronto reject Rask. How did that happen?

 

[LeafsNation75]

I can't believe Boston won a cup with that Toronto reject Rask. How did that happen?

They actually lost the Stanley Cup with Rask as their #1 Goalie, they won it with Rask as their #2 Goalie.

 

[agropop]

Well..seeing that this is a Leafs board and we are talking about great Leafs (ie Sundin vs. Kessel)...I don't see the relevance of Gilmour winning a Cup with the Flames and having 5 Selke nominees. I also disagree he had a better career..

Sundin outscored him by over a 100 goals in over 100 LESS GAMES...Sundin was also captain clutch..scoring big goals.

Gilmour's cup ring and Selke nominations are every bit as relevant as Sundin's career goal totals.

Sundin was awesome but I'll take Killer over him every time.

 

[Errol Swaghammer]

You gotta remember that when Sundin came to the Leafs we had Gilmour, Clark et al. By the time those guys left and Sundin took their spot as the top player on the team his work ethic was not up to snuff or on par with Dougie's and Wendy's. A lot of fans were disappointed with Mats because honestly during the playoffs he'd be invisible for a game, or hurt his finger and sit out an entire series while guys like Roberts, Tucker, Mogiilny were playing with far worse injuries.

For me personally, Sundin was my least favourite Leafs captain because of this, and I know a lot of other Leaf fans that are in the same boat. Years went on, a younger generation of Leafs grew up watching Mats score big goals, but never any playoffs. So, a lot of the Leafs fans that grew up watching this team during his tenure when we never made the playoffs have nothing but love for Mats. He was always the best player on those very bad Leafs team, he was always the most "clutch" player on those very bad Leafs team. They never experienced a Leafs team that had better overall offensive/clutch players than Mats.

What? We went to the playoffs 8 times with Mats. He played in 77 playoff games with the leafs.

Post-lockout he can't really be blamed since the team was unbelievably bad. And in hindsight if they didn't have him likely would have finished bottom 5 every year.

As far his durability goes there wasn't a single non-lockout year in his career where he didn't play in 70 games or more and he had 70 or more points in every single one as well (except for his last season in Vancouver). I mean I'm not even sure how you could try to be more durable than that. You think he was perfectly healthy each season and never fought through injuries in that time? There are very few players in NHL history who have maintained that kind of longevity and consistency, I'm not sure how you manage that without a work ethic.

And it's pretty simple why he's considered clutch, he's 7th all time in GWG. He's considered clutch because he was clutch.

 

[The_Chosen_One]

Gilmour's cup ring and Selke nominations are every bit as relevant as Sundin's career goal totals.

Sundin was awesome but I'll take Killer over him every time.

Gilmour wasn't very big nor strong, but he was mighty consistent. Never mind, his elite two-way ability that Sundin wished he had. I love Sundin, but Gilmour is what you want to build your team around. Skill, point production are important, but if Samuel Bennett is the next Gilmour, he's easily #1 in this draft.

 

[agropop]

Gilmour wasn't very big nor strong, but he was mighty consistent. Never mind, his elite two-way ability that Sundin wished he had. I love Sundin, but Gilmour is what you want to build your team around. Skill, point production are important, but if Samuel Bennett is the next Gilmour, he's easily #1 in this draft.

Certainly. I won't knock Sundin, he was a tremendous talent in an imposing package, a thoroughbred. Gilmour lacked the size and strength but more than made up for it with an indomitable spirit. He was something else...

 

[hockeyfanz*]

Gilmour's cup ring and Selke nominations are every bit as relevant as Sundin's career goal totals.

Sundin was awesome but I'll take Killer over him every time.

Ill concede that those two seasons that Gilmour scored over 100 pts were probably the best years Ive seen any Leaf play but overall his contribution to THE LEAFS pales in comparison to Mats. Wendel Clark is not even in the same stratosphere.

The Leafs with Mats as captain went to 3 Conference Finals and arguably had their best shot at a Stanley Cup the year the Canes bounced them and went on to win it all. I know..I know...LA Kings..Gretzky high stick..blah blah blah blah.

The Sundin team who lost to the Canes however was a more balanced team with a better roster IMO.

 

[hockeyfanz*]

Gilmour's cup ring and Selke nominations are every bit as relevant as Sundin's career goal totals.

Sundin was awesome but I'll take Killer over him every time.

No they are not. Why not talk about Brian Leetch as the greatest Leaf defenceman of all time....given that he was an MVP/Norris and cup winner too.

We are talking about their contributions to the Leafs. Not what they did before they arrived or after they left.

 

[agropop]

No they are not. Why not talk about Brian Leetch as the greatest Leaf defenceman of all time....given that he was an MVP/Norris and cup winner too.

We are talking about their contributions to the Leafs. Not what they did before they arrived or after they left.

Yes they are, just as some of Sundin's career goals were scored for Quebec, you're moving the goalposts here...

Regardless of your illusions about admissible evidence, it's a simple question of which player I would rather have and my answer, having watched them both, is Gilmour. His window may have been shorter but his level of play was higher than Sundin's ever was.

The 93 Leafs team was our best chance and Gilmour was considered by many, including myself to be among the top 2-3 players in the world. 100+ point Selke calibre seasons IN Toronto, great, deep, playoff runs where he put up unbelievable numbers and was an unforgettable warrior...

I loved Sundin, don't get me wrong....

But no.

 

[hockeyfanz*]

Yes they are, just as some of Sundin's career goals were scored for Quebec, you're moving the goalposts here...

Regardless of your illusions about admissible evidence, it's a simple question of which player I would rather have and my answer, having watched them both, is Gilmour. His window may have been shorter but his level of play was higher than Sundin's ever was.

The 93 Leafs team was our best chance and Gilmour was considered by many, including myself to be among the top 2-3 players in the world. 100+ point Selke calibre seasons IN Toronto, great, deep, playoff runs where he put up unbelievable numbers and was an unforgettable warrior...

I loved Sundin, don't get me wrong....

But no.

Whatever...Ive also watched the Leafs for a long time. I said for two seasons Dougie had the best seasons I have ever witnessed for a TML. But overall contributions..Gilmour is down the list behind greats in my lifetime like Sittler/Salming and Sundin. Its not even debatable. Those three guys were Leafs for the bulk of their careers and certainly in their primes. Gilmour was here for what? 5 years maybe? Only a couple of them were memorable.

I know Gilmour and Clark are the two most revered Leafs by Leafs Nation...I simply don't agree. Not taking anything away from them...as they both would have to rank in my top 10 faves of all time...just realistically neither guy accomplished what those three aforementioned players did in a LEAFS uniform. Not even close.

Had Gilmour won the Leafs a Cup, that my friend would be a whole different story. We all know how that ended.

 

[bunjay]

Yes they are, just as some of Sundin's career goals were scored for Quebec, you're moving the goalposts here...

Regardless of your illusions about admissible evidence, it's a simple question of which player I would rather have and my answer, having watched them both, is Gilmour. His window may have been shorter but his level of play was higher than Sundin's ever was.

The 93 Leafs team was our best chance and Gilmour was considered by many, including myself to be among the top 2-3 players in the world. 100+ point Selke calibre seasons IN Toronto, great, deep, playoff runs where he put up unbelievable numbers and was an unforgettable warrior...

I loved Sundin, don't get me wrong....

But no.

The year Gilmour scored 127 points he was still only tied for 7th in points, and Gretzky missed half the season.

By comparison Sundin scored 94 points three years later, also good for 7th in the league but with Gretzky ahead of him as well as a prime Jagr.

 

[The_Chosen_One]

So I suppose this discussion is all about offensive prowess now?

Kessel is #6 2013-2014, #7-8 2012-2013, #6 2011-2012. I often remembered Sundin being out of the top 10 in this regard.

I would also argue that Kessel is quite clutch. He was up against the defensively strong Bruins and didn't disappear at all. Seeing that Sundin's 99 playoff run included a much more better supporting cast particularly the D core ( i.e. Berard, Yushkevich, Kaberle, Markov). Let's see Kessel on a contending team before we start writing him off in this regard.

 

[Leaf Lander]

Both Sundin and Gilmour. Had great careers

Gilmour was an emotional leader and mats was just a consistent

Clark scored big goals and changed momentum of a game with a huge hit or fight.

Kessel can score like Sundin could. He needs to work on his game and challenge himself to be a more complete player if he wants to create a career that has lasting legacy like call Gilmour and Sundin careers. Time for a gut check dig deep and make it happen.

 

[hullsy47]

Both Sundin and Gilmour. Had great careers

Gilmour was an emotional leader and mats was just a consistent

Clark scored big goals and changed momentum of a game with a huge hit or fight.

Kessel can score like Sundin could. He needs to work on his game and challenge himself to be a more complete player if he wants to create a career that has lasting legacy like call Gilmour and Sundin careers. Time for a gut check dig deep and make it happen.

kessel is kessel .not sundin ,not gilmour ,not clark .not sittler.
5 years ago he is exactly the same player he is now ,5 years from now he ll be the same ,lets live with it and get on with it,just hope we dont have these polls every year trying to defend his worth
that wont be pretty

 

[MastuhNinks]

Well..seeing that this is a Leafs board and we are talking about great Leafs (ie Sundin vs. Kessel)...I don't see the relevance of Gilmour winning a Cup with the Flames and having 5 Selke nominees. I also disagree he had a better career..

Sundin outscored him by over a 100 goals in over 100 LESS GAMES...Sundin was also captain clutch..scoring big goals.

So you're going to post and compare their career numbers, and then whine when I tell you Gilmour had the better overall career?