Sundin versus Kessel

[FlareKnight]

Just so much that Sundin brought that we could use here. Nothing against Kessel, but tough to be that kind of player.

It was NOT a collapse, it was 10 minutes of 1 game, THIS season was a collapse because it wasn't a small part of 1 game, it was 8 straight losses, that's a true collapse.

This argument just doesn't fly though. Why is part of one game not a collapse while part of a whole season is? Both are comparably small portions of the overall whole.

Both were collapses, that's just how it is. Blowing a large lead in a short period of time in game 7 is as much a collapse as a critical losing streak.

 

[dsf]

(Yes I do believe that Sundin is the most beloved player in the history of our organization)

lol.. Sundin isn't even the most beloved player of our organization in the last 20 years! There's two ahead of him, namely Gilmour and Clark.

 

[Ratboy]

Sundin was clutch.

Guy scored a bunch of OT goals, and was a better all round player.

Wow, how times have changed.

 

[Ratboy]

lol.. Sundin isn't even the most beloved player of our organization in the last 20 years! There's two ahead of him, namely Gilmour and Clark.

Yeah, even I can admit I under appreciated Sundin while he was here.

 

[K19*]

Kopitar > Kessel is really debatable.

No, it's really not.

 

[TheScruffington]

Kessel cannot even remotely compare to Sundin.

When Sundin had the puck, it was a real struggle for other teams to take it from him. He was kind of like Marian Hossa is today, big bodied and protects the puck extremely well. He threw hits, he took hits to make plays all the time, and he had that clutch factor where he could perform well under pressure and in times when the team desperately needed it.

Phil doesn't hit, he doesn't take hits to make plays, he gives up the puck if he sees a guy coming at him. People talk about this guy as "The Phil" like a big joke because of his mannerisms and how he's an awkward dude.

If you ask me, I'd rather have a player that people know as a consistent, fearless and amazing competitor than a dude that we all have a big joke/fad about.

 

[hoglund]

Just so much that Sundin brought that we could use here. Nothing against Kessel, but tough to be that kind of player.

This argument just doesn't fly though. Why is part of one game not a collapse while part of a whole season is? Both are comparably small portions of the overall whole.

Both were collapses, that's just how it is. Blowing a large lead in a short period of time in game 7 is as much a collapse as a critical losing streak.

because it was a small part of one game and everyone makes it sound like a huge, "epic" collapse. It's a collapse in the sense that they fell apart, but it wasn't enough of a collapse to keep mentioning it because it was only 10 minutes of 1 game and not 8 straight losses or a 1 1/2 month slump like the other TRUE collapses, that's why.

 

[FrozenJagrt]

Never mind the fact that those ten minutes are the sole reason the season ended for Toronto.

Does that happen if Sundin is playing? I don't know. But going into overtime, there isn't a single player one can reasonably expect to score before Sundin. The guy made a career of scoring when his team needed it.

 

[Community]

Definitely Sundin right now... but I legitimately think that Kessel could be the better player by the end of his career. He thinks the game (at least on the offensive side) unbelievably well... It's kind of ridiculous the plays he makes on a daily basis.

Anyways, Sundin was a great 2-way C who was awesome at using his body to defend the puck, something we REALLY need right now. An elite first line winger was also a big need in Sundin's era, pretty funny. I'm glad the Leafs have both and I agree with the person who stated that both weren't/won't be appreciated until they're gone.

 

[Ratboy]

Never mind the fact that those ten minutes are the sole reason the season ended for Toronto.

Does that happen if Sundin is playing? I don't know. But going into overtime, there isn't a single player one can reasonably expect to score before Sundin. The guy made a career of scoring when his team needed it.

Maybe Steve Thomas.

 

[kesleaf]

Will Kessel be a HOFer?

Wait let me check.

 

[likeabosski]

I find it amusing how quickly Leaf fans turn on Phil Kessel and Dion Phaneuf after they failed to make the playoffs. When the Leafs were a playoff team and I said that Phil Kessel and Dion Phaneuf were overpaid and overrated, I was told to shut up basically. Us advanced stat geeks were right about the Leafs. Carlyle will likely get fired and that will help the team. But I hope Nonis will go with him. Which definitely won't happen unfortunately.

I like Phil Kessel though. But I admit that he is overpaid. Maybe not by a whole lot. But overpaid for sure. With some exceptions, wingers don't usually make good franchise players. Mats Sundin, our 1C, who could play on not only the powerplay but on the penalty kill and be effective at both ends of the ice, was a true franchise player.

 

[WestCoastLeafs]

And neither will win a stanley cup, so any appreciation is to much for non-winning mediocure talent

If that's your logic, don't forget to include Gilmour and Wendel Clark as well.

 

[FrozenJagrt]

Maybe Steve Thomas.

Considering Sundin is 8th in game winning goals and 2nd in overtime goals, no.

 

[Disgruntled Observer*]

Sundin definitely!!!!

It's just a shame that he betrayed the whole fanbase when he left.

"I will issue my NTC because I have no interest in being a rental. A player should be with the team the whole season".
Next season...
Signs as a rental.
One of the flat out most shameful events in all of world history.

 

[Jacques Trap*]

Sundin was far better

 

[The_Chosen_One]

Kessel cannot even remotely compare to Sundin.

When Sundin had the puck, it was a real struggle for other teams to take it from him. He was kind of like Marian Hossa is today, big bodied and protects the puck extremely well. He threw hits, he took hits to make plays all the time, and he had that clutch factor where he could perform well under pressure and in times when the team desperately needed it.

Phil doesn't hit, he doesn't take hits to make plays, he gives up the puck if he sees a guy coming at him. People talk about this guy as "The Phil" like a big joke because of his mannerisms and how he's an awkward dude.

If you ask me, I'd rather have a player that people know as a consistent, fearless and amazing competitor than a dude that we all have a big joke/fad about.

Two very different players. In terms of pure skill, Kessel edges him. What makes Sundin great was above average two-way player ( Gilmour, Keon, Clark were better in that regard), incredible forechecker, reach, and used his size quite well despite not being mean. Clutch player as well.

 

[FrozenJagrt]

It's a shame that Sundin wasn't mean. When he got angry, he was every bit as dominant as a guy like Lindros or Jagr. Sadly, I think he got angry on the ice about four times in his career.

 

[hullsy47]

Yeah, even I can admit I under appreciated Sundin while he was here.

wow kessel isnt much better than JVR and a sundin comparison? we just had a monumental collapse ,maybe historical ,one of the softest teams in hockey , and idotiical
tweets bragging about fishin.
ya id compare him sundin , or clark .or gilmour,or sittler ,or keon .........
sundin played with people hanging all over his back ,no comparison,
shanny knows folks

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

Two very different players. In terms of pure skill, Kessel edges him. What makes Sundin great was above average two-way player ( Gilmour, Keon, Clark were better in that regard), incredible forechecker, reach, and used his size quite well despite not being mean. Clutch player as well.

In terms of pure skill? Kessel is quicker, that´s about it. In terms of passing and shooting they are equal. Sundin was a big guy who knew how to use his body and he got leadership qualities and was very clutch along with a solid 2-way game so Sundin wins pretty easily.

 

[The_Chosen_One]

In terms of pure skill? Kessel is quicker, that´s about it. In terms of passing and shooting they are equal. Sundin was a big guy who knew how to use his body and he got leadership qualities and was very clutch along with a solid 2-way game so Sundin wins pretty easily.

Kessel is a more creative passer and has ridiculous vision to boot. He's probably one of the best I've ever seen especially at higher speeds. Interestingly, Sundin was a more versatile finisher than him. He could get that puck in the net in so many ways especially when in full gear.

Sundin > Kessel, but on skill alone, he edges him. There is a reason why he can get away with being a perimeter forward. Seeing that Patrick Kane considered Kessel his most skilled teammate makes that more clear.

 

[The_Chosen_One]

wow kessel isnt much better than JVR and a sundin comparison? we just had a monumental collapse ,maybe historical ,one of the softest teams in hockey , and idotiical
tweets bragging about fishin.
ya id compare him sundin , or clark .or gilmour,or sittler ,or keon .........
sundin played with people hanging all over his back ,no comparison,
shanny knows folks

Kessel is better than JVR despite being more complete. The lack of a consistency is a concern on JVR's side, and I doubt he could carry linemates like Phil.

As I said before, I would even trade Kessel for a TWD. Nonetheless, to deny his elite skill is just madness. He essentially rides on that and didn't slow down even when facing tougher competition this year. Unlike most utilised in that manner, he doesn't have much of a two-way game, unwilling to play traffic, and yet can be extremely productive.

He's that skilled.

 

[Detroit Swed Wings]

Will Kessel be a HOFer?

My thought exactly

 

[bunjay]

Sundin did so many things beyond his offensive production, which was already Hall of Fame-worthy.

He was much more difficult to play against than Kessel is, and arguably did more with less for several years.

There's only one area in which Kessel is better and that's obviously goalscoring. If we're going to get into hypotheticals Sundin would be better under the post-lockout rules than Kessel would have been in the pre-lockout rules, and that's not even close. Sundin in his prime with the way they call interference, slashing, hooking, holding etc these days would be close to unstoppable coming off the boards or from behind the net. And don't forget the two-line pass...

 

[agropop]

Small perimeter sniper vs thoroughbred