Sundin versus Kessel

[trentmccleary]

The Leafs with Mats as captain went to 3 Conference Finals and arguably had their best shot at a Stanley Cup the year the Canes bounced them and went on to win it all. I know..I know...

They went to 2 Conference Finals during the Sundin era and Sundin only played in 8 of the 20 playoff games in the 2002 playoffs (Leafs went 3-5).

The year Gilmour scored 127 points he was still only tied for 7th in points, and Gretzky missed half the season.

By comparison Sundin scored 94 points three years later, also good for 7th in the league but with Gretzky ahead of him as well as a prime Jagr.

So I suppose this discussion is all about offensive prowess now?

Kessel is #6 2013-2014, #7-8 2012-2013, #6 2011-2012. I often remembered Sundin being out of the top 10 in this regard.

Here is how their top finishes stack up in their careers:

Kessel = 7 Top-10 Finishes
Top-10 Points = 6th, 6th, 7th
Top-10 Goals = 5th, 6th
Top-10 PPG = 8th, 10th

Gilmour = 7 Top-10 Finishes
Top-10 Points = 4th, 5th, 7th
Top-10 Goals = 10th
Top-10 PPG = 5th, 9th, 9th

Sundin = 6 Top-10 Finishes
Top-10 Points = 4th, 7th
Top-10 Goals = 2nd, 8th, 10th
Top-10 PPG = 10th

Post-lockout he can't really be blamed since the team was unbelievably bad. And in hindsight if they didn't have him likely would have finished bottom 5 every year.

The skaters looked pretty similar pre-lockout and post-lockout, the goaltending was the difference.

Pre-lockout Leafs averaged 98 points (6 years) during the Joseph-Beflour era (they finished 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 7th, 8th and 10th for the Vezina).
Post-lockout Leafs averaged 88 points (3years) during Sundin's last 3 seasons (Leafs tandem SV% was 19th, 27th and 29th).

That'll lose you 10 points pretty easily.

 

[cyris]

Well..seeing that this is a Leafs board and we are talking about great Leafs (ie Sundin vs. Kessel)...I don't see the relevance of Gilmour winning a Cup with the Flames and having 5 Selke nominees. I also disagree he had a better career..

Sundin outscored him by over a 100 goals in over 100 LESS GAMES...Sundin was also captain clutch..scoring big goals.

One guy was a goal scorer and one a playmaker?

You keep pointing out that Sundin was a better goal scorer but what else was he better at?

Gilmour was the better playmaker, Gilmour was the better 2way player, Gilmour was the better playoff performer (his PPG went up in the playoffs while Sundin's went down), Gilmour had more NHL award nominations, wins, and actually won a championship, and even tho Sundin was much bigger Gilmour was the more physical player.

Sundin was arguably the better Leaf but overall careers it Gilmour and not really that close.

 

[ConnorTO]

sundin is skilled

i mean like that one play where he just whamed a slapshot and scored
something a pro would do like gretzy

 

[socko]

One big difference I see right off the bat is Phil Kessel is 26 years old and Mats Sundin is 43.

Advantage: Kessel

 

[Trapper]

Here is what has been said about Ovi.

1 hour ago
@tsnscottcullen: RT @cotsonika: I think you can win with Ovechkin, but if he's an elite complementary player, not a centerpiece. He's a Hull, not an Yzerman.

Is this a fair assessment of Kessel as well?

 

[FrozenJagrt]

Here is what has been said about Ovi.

1 hour ago
@tsnscottcullen: RT @cotsonika: I think you can win with Ovechkin, but if he's an elite complementary player, not a centerpiece. He's a Hull, not an Yzerman.

Is this a fair assessment of Kessel as well?

Mr Cullen seems to forget who Yzerman was for the first decade of his career.

 

[Trapper]

Mr Cullen seems to forget who Yzerman was for the first decade of his career.

But he became what he needed to be. Can the others?

 

[Raging Bull]

The Leafs with Mats as captain went to 3 Conference Finals and arguably had their best shot at a Stanley Cup the year the Canes bounced them and went on to win it all. I know..I know...LA Kings..Gretzky high stick..blah blah blah blah.

The Canes weren't even a good team that year, Irbe just stood on his head. They got smoked in 5 games by Detroit in the finals.

 

[Gallagbi]

But he became what he needed to be. Can the others?

Did he change or did the supporting cast improve? I lean towards the latter.

 

[cyris]

Did he change or did the supporting cast improve? I lean towards the latter.

Cant it be both?
The supporting cast around him and the system he played in definitely got better but so did his all around game.

 

[socko]

Cant it be both?
The supporting cast around him and the system he played in definitely got better but so did his all around game.

I'll take the 65 goals and 155 points (with Gerard Gallant as his top winger, give him anyone decent and that's closer to 200 points), you can have the 2-way game 30 goals and 80 points.

 

[Bomber0104]

Here is what has been said about Ovi.

1 hour ago
@tsnscottcullen: RT @cotsonika: I think you can win with Ovechkin, but if he's an elite complementary player, not a centerpiece. He's a Hull, not an Yzerman.

Is this a fair assessment of Kessel as well?

Too late.

Kessel is the centerpiece of this team and will be indefinitely.

Trade him while he is still in his prime, I say.

We need a legitimate franchise player and if trading Kessel gives us a chance at acquiring one you make that trade and don't look back.

 

[The_Chosen_One]

One guy was a goal scorer and one a playmaker?

You keep pointing out that Sundin was a better goal scorer but what else was he better at?

Gilmour was the better playmaker, Gilmour was the better 2way player, Gilmour was the better playoff performer (his PPG went up in the playoffs while Sundin's went down), Gilmour had more NHL award nominations, wins, and actually won a championship, and even tho Sundin was much bigger Gilmour was the more physical player.

Sundin was arguably the better Leaf but overall careers it Gilmour and not really that close.

Seriously, Gilmour is ridiculously underrated. He is a lot more appropriate for the 'new' NHL. Nowadays, it makes even more sense to build around a Bergeron/ Krejci/ Toews than a Malkin. Players that have a strong two-way game and willing to do all assignments ( offensive/ defensive). It is much easier to tighten up and prevent goals than outscoring your opponent.

 

[cyris]

I'll take the 65 goals and 155 points (with Gerard Gallant as his top winger, give him anyone decent and that's closer to 200 points), you can have the 2-way game 30 goals and 80 points.

The league was very different when he put up those 2 point totals.
When he put up 155 points there were 3.74 goals scored per game, when he dropped to around a point per game player there were only 2.6-2.7 goals scored per game.

 

[socko]

The league was very different when he put up those 2 point totals.
When he put up 155 points there were 3.74 goals scored per game, when he dropped to around a point per game player there were only 2.6-2.7 goals scored per game.

Yes, the game was much more entertaining back then. I remember it fondly. But Yzerman had a sharp drop in point production that exactly matched the arrival of Scotty Bowman. As I recall, Scotty was going to trade him to Ottawa if he didn't start to play his trap. Paul Coffey was another guy Scotty didn't like but unlike Yzerman he never changed and thus was traded twice by Bowman (once with Pittsburgh and then again with Detroit). The first time Coffey was traded for Brian Benning and Jeff Chychrun!!! Needless to say, I think Scotty Bowman sucks and I'm quite sure Paul Coffey would agree.

 

[Trapper]

Yes, the game was much more entertaining back then. I remember it fondly. But Yzerman had a sharp drop in point production that exactly matched the arrival of Scotty Bowman. As I recall, Scotty was going to trade him to Ottawa if he didn't start to play his trap. Paul Coffey was another guy Scotty didn't like but unlike Yzerman he never changed and thus was traded twice by Bowman (once with Pittsburgh and then again with Detroit). The first time Coffey was traded for Brian Benning and Jeff Chychrun!!! Needless to say, I think Scotty Bowman sucks and I'm quite sure Paul Coffey would agree.

However Coffey and Primeau were traded for Shanahan and they won 3 cups. They would probably disagree.

 

[socko]

However Coffey and Primeau were traded for Shanahan and they won 3 cups. They would probably disagree.

Yes, I was never the biggest Shanahan fan. Seems like a rich man's David Andreychuk to me. I really like guys that skate much better than Shanahan could. But he fit right into that team and gave them just what they needed. It was a great trade for them. Primeau looked like a talented young guy but never really developed into much. They should have taken Jagr.

 

[cyris]

Yes, the game was much more entertaining back then. I remember it fondly. But Yzerman had a sharp drop in point production that exactly matched the arrival of Scotty Bowman. As I recall, Scotty was going to trade him to Ottawa if he didn't start to play his trap. Paul Coffey was another guy Scotty didn't like but unlike Yzerman he never changed and thus was traded twice by Bowman (once with Pittsburgh and then again with Detroit). The first time Coffey was traded for Brian Benning and Jeff Chychrun!!! Needless to say, I think Scotty Bowman sucks and I'm quite sure Paul Coffey would agree.

Bowman has won more cups than any other coach and only Beliveau has his name on the cup more times than Bowman.
I think Scottie Bowman's success disagrees with you.

 

[bunjay]

One guy was a goal scorer and one a playmaker?

You keep pointing out that Sundin was a better goal scorer but what else was he better at?

Gilmour was the better playmaker, Gilmour was the better 2way player, Gilmour was the better playoff performer (his PPG went up in the playoffs while Sundin's went down), Gilmour had more NHL award nominations, wins, and actually won a championship, and even tho Sundin was much bigger Gilmour was the more physical player.

Sundin was arguably the better Leaf but overall careers it Gilmour and not really that close.

I think if you look at the goal totals of all the mediocre wingers Sundin played with and compare them to their goal totals elsewhere you'll find that Sundin was also a good playmaker. Particularly on the PP.

From 05-07 Tucker scored 52 goals in 130 games. That's a 33 goal pace for a guy who was honestly a glorified 3rd line pest. So how did he do it? 33 of those 52 goals were on the PP, a whopping 63%. Wait, wasn't it Sundin giving him cross-crease tap-in after cross-crease tap-in on the PP? That's the way I remember it. Then he went to Colorado and scored 18 goals in 134 games, 5 on the PP.

Ponikarovsky averaged about 20 goals/season for 5 straight years in Toronto, some of that was Antropov, more of it was Sundin. Then he left Toronto and didn't score at anywhere near that pace, now he plays in the KHL.

Sundin made a lot of players look better than they were.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

Will Kessel be a HOFer?

Right now, I'd have to say Sundin was the better and more valuable player.

I can see Kessel's skills diminishing in about 3 years. He'll still be a good player. Not sure he's a core piece that a team should build around though.

Wingers are easier to find. Top 20 percentile #1 C's that also play a strong 2-way game with very good offensive production are much more difficult to find.

 

[Trapper]

Right now, I'd have to say Sundin was the better and more valuable player.

I can see Kessel's skills diminishing in about 3 years. He'll still be a good player. Not sure he's a core piece that a team should build around though.

Wingers are easier to find. Top 20 percentile #1 C's that also play a strong 2-way game with very good offensive production are much more difficult to find.

Look how many wingers are available in the draft. Ehlers,Virtanen,Ritchie,Nylander,Dal Colle,Perlini etc.
it's about time we move Kessel for a no. 1 C or JVR but one of them.

 

[yakfish]

For me I think Sundin had a larger impact on the team than Kessel. He had the ability to carry the team on his back. Kessel hasn't shown to have much if any leadership ability.

 

[canary]

Carry the team on his back....to what?

 

[JukofYork]

Terrible thread.

The comparison is not there at all. Two very different players.

One guy wore his heart on his sleeve for most of his career with Toronto, while the other doesnt

One guy could handle the media, the other cant

One guy showed up in big moments, the other doesnt

One guy didnt shy away from physical contact, the other does

You wanna make a thread that can at least be discussed?

Mogilny vs Kessel.

 

[The_Chosen_One]

I think if you look at the goal totals of all the mediocre wingers Sundin played with and compare them to their goal totals elsewhere you'll find that Sundin was also a good playmaker. Particularly on the PP.

From 05-07 Tucker scored 52 goals in 130 games. That's a 33 goal pace for a guy who was honestly a glorified 3rd line pest. So how did he do it? 33 of those 52 goals were on the PP, a whopping 63%. Wait, wasn't it Sundin giving him cross-crease tap-in after cross-crease tap-in on the PP? That's the way I remember it. Then he went to Colorado and scored 18 goals in 134 games, 5 on the PP.

Ponikarovsky averaged about 20 goals/season for 5 straight years in Toronto, some of that was Antropov, more of it was Sundin. Then he left Toronto and didn't score at anywhere near that pace, now he plays in the KHL.

Sundin made a lot of players look better than they were.

Tucker was around 32 when he played for the Avalanche. His numbers began to plummet while he was on the Leafs with pretty mediocre numbers in his final two years. In fact, he hardly had the defensive ability to be placed on a checking side. A total liability, he was clearly a scoring forward and probably would've achieved Poni like numbers without Sundin if younger. As for Poni, his career high was achieved when Sundin left the team.

Don't get me wrong, while I think Sundin is a strong playmaker, it's difficult to use that argument as why he is better than Gilmour. In terms of of puck distribution, Dougie was much better in that regard. He wasn't the biggest or strongest, but he utilised his linemates extremely well.