Sundin versus Kessel

[Bardown warrior]

If Sundin was on our team the last 3 years, not one outta the three collapses would happen. That just says it all.

 

[BrannigansLaw]

Sundin >>>>>> Kessel

 

[hoglund]

If Sundin was on our team the last 3 years, not one outta the three collapses would happen. That just says it all.

there were only 2 collapses, this year's was by far the worst, 2 seasons ago the Leafs were in 2nd place in the East until mid Feb and then the 18 wheeler drove off the cliff, The 3rd collapse that many like to refer to was a game collapse and that happens to the best teams in the NHL. If you remember last year's playoffs, the Bruins had a 3-1 series lead and they almost "collapsed", sorry but last year can't really be considered a "collapse" because it was only 1 game actually only 10 minutes, this year and 2 years ago were collapses, no one can dispute that.

 

[Al14]

Sundin >>>>>> Kessel

AINEC!!!

 

[Al14]

Pretty ridiculous comparison in my opinion. Completely different players that have completely different personalities and effects on organizations. Kessel might outscore Sundin over his career, but I still wouldnt consider him to be nearly as good a player. Not even close.

 

[Bardown warrior]

there were only 2 collapses, this year's was by far the worst, 2 seasons ago the Leafs were in 2nd place in the East until mid Feb and then the 18 wheeler drove off the cliff, The 3rd collapse that many like to refer to was a game collapse and that happens to the best teams in the NHL. If you remember last year's playoffs, the Bruins had a 3-1 series lead and they almost "collapsed", sorry but last year can't really be considered a "collapse" because it was only 1 game actually only 10 minutes, this year and 2 years ago were collapses, no one can dispute that.

It made history. I remember a statistican came on the OTR show with Michael Landsberg and said the probability of the leafs winning the game while up 4-1 with 10 minutes left was 99.2%.

It was a collapse.

 

[ACC1224]

It made history. I remember a statistican came on the OTR show with Michael Landsberg and said the probability of the leafs winning the game while up 4-1 with 10 minutes left was 99.2%.

It was a collapse.

That doesn't sound made up at all.

 

[Mess]

Some fans see only goals and assists when comparing players

Phil Kessel ...... 364 games .. 156 goals 177 assists 333 points (5 seasons) = .4285 GPG & .915 PPG
verses
Mats Sundin .....981 games .. 420 goals 567 assists 987 points (13 seasons) = .4281 GPG & 1.01 PPG

So Sundin wins statistically & wins in every other important category as well like size, strength, leadership, defensive ability, puck possession, physicality, face-offs, Corsi etc etc.

Kessel however wins in a foot race.

Conclusion: Kessel is faster, but Sundin wins in everything else.

 

[Warden of the North]

Sundin. Not close.

 

[LeafsMonster]

Just reading this title made me miss sundin so much more than I already do

Sundin is better in almost all categories, and I still love kessel and think he is a great and important part of the team.
But you can't replace Mats Sundin in my heart. No one can.

 

[Tak7]

Ask me again after Kessel has played 900 games.

Right now though? Sundin 100%

 

[ACC1224]

Some fans see only goals and assists when comparing players

Phil Kessel ...... 364 games .. 156 goals 177 assists 333 points (5 seasons) = .4285 GPG & .915 PPG
verses
Mats Sundin .....981 games .. 420 goals 567 assists 987 points (13 seasons) = .4281 GPG & 1.01 PPG

So Sundin wins statistically & wins in every other important category as well like size, strength, leadership, defensive ability, puck possession, physicality, face-offs, Corsi etc etc.

Kessel however wins in a foot race.

Conclusion: Kessel is faster, but Sundin wins in everything else.

Who are the "some fans"?
Yet to see one post claiming Kessel is better.

 

[ACC1224]

Biggest problem with the Sundin led Leafs is he didn't have a Kessel to play with.
The opposite seems to be true for Kessel.

 

[cyris]

Some fans see only goals and assists when comparing players

Phil Kessel ...... 364 games .. 156 goals 177 assists 333 points (5 seasons) = .4285 GPG & .915 PPG
verses
Mats Sundin .....981 games .. 420 goals 567 assists 987 points (13 seasons) = .4281 GPG & 1.01 PPG

So Sundin wins statistically & wins in every other important category as well like size, strength, leadership, defensive ability, puck possession, physicality, face-offs, Corsi etc etc.

Kessel however wins in a foot race.

Conclusion: Kessel is faster, but Sundin wins in everything else.

That doesn't factor the era in which each guy played. Sundin may have a better ppg but Kessel already has more top 10 finishes in league scoring.
Kessel also gets a ton of flack for the teams lack of sucess but at around the same age in the mid 90's the leafs also were a bottom feeder team.

Sundin was a better around player but kessel has been to at least this point in his career been the better offensive player when com paired to his peers.

 

[-DeMo-]

I wonder what Sundin would have been like if he played in the Non-clutch and grab era. Right now for the "most part", grabbing, holding and interference is call so players do it less.

I am sure Sundin (and a lot of other players) would have had even greater success if they played in their prime today.

Anyways two different kinds of players two different positions. Not fair to compare.

BTW.. Sundin FTW.

he did play 3 full season's after the year lockout which the clutch and grab era was over and he put up ppg numbers in all 3 season's.

 

[Raging Bull]

Biggest problem with the Sundin led Leafs is he didn't have a Kessel to play with.
The opposite seems to be true for Kessel.

Amen. Outside of an Alex Mogilny on the back nine of his career.

 

[TheProspector]

Not that close for me right now. Sundin was a better player. At this point Sundin is more like Kopitar vs Kessel and I highly doubt anyone takes Kessel in that comparison

Sundin > Kopitar.

Kopitar > Kessel is really debatable.

 

[Sonofamitch]

Sundin over kessel every day of the week and twice on Thursdays, sundin was amazing on Thursdays.

 

[Leafidelity]

Another similarity between them will end up being that they were not properly appreciated by this fan base until they were gone.

Toronto is a toxic place to play. I wonder how many Avalanche fans recently looked down at Duchene because he wasn't Joe Sakic.

The worst part is that the toxicity starts with our older fans. Lieweke taking down the old photos was more symbolic than anything. It was a gesture to the older fans to let go of the past and embrace a new group - to live in the now. Unfortunately the symbolism was lost, and our new players still suffer comparisons to nothing but the highlights of the past 50+ years.

The Muskoka 5 was purged in an attempt to remove an outdated mindset of players. It's just too bad there is no real way to purge the outdated mindset of some fans.

 

[Mess]

The biggest difference is that Sundin didn't need better teammates to make himself and the team better as that is what he did himself by carrying it on his shoulders.

With Kessel the opposite is true because its believed Leafs needs better teammates to make him and the team better as the bottom 10 overall finishes will attest to.

Sundin was seldom a negative +/- player during his 13 seasons while Kessel has never been a positive +/- player. Sundin was on the ice for more goals for than against helping his team win, while Kessel is on the ice for more goals against then for which results in the team losing.

With Sundin as a PPG the Leafs were predominately a playoff team yearly. While the Leafs struggle to get out of the bottom 10 overall while Kessel puts up similar PPG numbers annually.

Kessel's best 2 statistical season 2011-12 (37 goals 82 points) and 2013-14 (37 goals 80 points) resulted in the Leafs two biggest epic collapses finishing 5th and 8th last overall. Sundin best 2 statistical seasons 1998-99 (31 goals 83 points) & 2001-02 (41 goals 80 points) resulted in Leafs losing in round 3 conference finals.

That makes Sundin a leader and Kessel a follower because as they go their teams go.

 

[hoglund]

It made history. I remember a statistican came on the OTR show with Michael Landsberg and said the probability of the leafs winning the game while up 4-1 with 10 minutes left was 99.2%.

It was a collapse.

It was NOT a collapse, it was 10 minutes of 1 game, THIS season was a collapse because it wasn't a small part of 1 game, it was 8 straight losses, that's a true collapse.

 

[JAMmer124]

Amen. Outside of an Alex Mogilny on the back nine of his career.

Pretty insane how an old and crippled Mogilny still managed to be as good as he was for us, disgustingly talrnted

 

[hullsy47]

Biggest problem with the Sundin led Leafs is he didn't have a Kessel to play with.
The opposite seems to be true for Kessel.

kessel is barely still here.....i mean rumors abound that phaneuf tried to get kessel to be more dedicated ,ill be upset if dion goes and kessel goes unscathed ,sundin was class ,kessel needs lessons in class ,maturity ,and accountability ..
shanny knows all

 

[ACC1224]

kessel is barely still here.....i mean rumors abound that phaneuf tried to get kessel to be more dedicated ,ill be upset if dion goes and kessel goes unscathed ,sundin was class ,kessel needs lessons in class ,maturity ,and accountability ..
shanny knows all

rumors abound

 

[cyris]

The biggest difference is that Sundin didn't need better teammates to make himself and the team better as that is what he did himself by carrying it on his shoulders.

With Kessel the opposite is true because its believed Leafs needs better teammates to make him and the team better as the bottom 10 overall finishes will attest to.

Sundin was seldom a negative +/- player during his 13 seasons while Kessel has never been a positive +/- player. Sundin was on the ice for more goals for than against helping his team win, while Kessel is on the ice for more goals against then for which results in the team losing.

With Sundin as a PPG the Leafs were predominately a playoff team yearly. While the Leafs struggle to get out of the bottom 10 overall while Kessel puts up similar PPG numbers annually.

Kessel's best 2 statistical season 2011-12 (37 goals 82 points) and 2013-14 (37 goals 80 points) resulted in the Leafs two biggest epic collapses finishing 5th and 8th last overall. Sundin best 2 statistical seasons 1998-99 (31 goals 83 points) & 2001-02 (41 goals 80 points) resulted in Leafs losing in round 3 conference finals.

That makes Sundin a leader and Kessel a follower because as they go their teams go.

Look at the teams they had around them for those seasons. Your trying to use he overall teams sucess to show matts was a better player. Those teams matts had sucess with were much better teams than the one kessel plays on now.
Yet when matts was around Phil's age the leafs team wasn't really any better.

Once again I think that matts was the better overall player but you are trying to use very selective stats to prove it.