News Article: Subban's next contract

[vfactor]

A lot of over reaction - not sure if anyone listened to McGuire today but he was in favor of the benching. He also said that the Habs should show PK video of Bourque, Nedermeyer abd Leetch to teach Subban composure.

PK's on ice talent is undeniable but he still is not a complete player. The ceiling is not just a flashy offense first, awesome skate and skill player, but a true team leader who is reliable in all game situations.

If you don't see the flaws in PK's game you are not paying attention - and this does not mean he's not the best we have.

And the same can be said about MT coaching. MT should be the first 'leader' in this group and act as it. I see more flaws in MT than in Subban

One of the thing I notice a lot lately is when Subban is in the O zone, he has a chance to make a play but will simply dump the puck and put wheels to go back right away. The safe play is probably the one the coach loves the most but in my mind, Subban strength is actually the ability to make those offensive zone plays.

I always prefer to exploit strenght then covering weakness. But that's my opinion. How Subban will progress under another coach is something we'll never know but benching him because he made a mistake, constantly on his back, take off his natural instinct and force him into a theoretically a better 'well rounded' player is the way it should be ?

I guess we'll have to wait and see. I do think that MT did some good to Subban as a player but a lot of times, he strikes me frankly as someone who just needs to remind his authority.

 

[Kriss E]

A lot of over reaction - not sure if anyone listened to McGuire today but he was in favor of the benching. He also said that the Habs should show PK video of Bourque, Nedermeyer abd Leetch to teach Subban composure.

PK's on ice talent is undeniable but he still is not a complete player. The ceiling is not just a flashy offense first, awesome skate and skill player, but a true team leader who is reliable in all game situations.

If you don't see the flaws in PK's game you are not paying attention - and this does not mean he's not the best we have.

Nobody is denying flaws. The guy is 24.

Bourque, Nieds and Leetch all had their share of flaws at 24 too. Nothing wrong with showing PK tapes of all the greats. Not sure what this has anything to do with losing his cool after a scrum. This happens to veterans and even the greatest leaders.
Players gets frustrated, they take dumb penalties. No need to bench anybody for that. It happened to Bourque, Nieds and Leetch, even later in their careers.
Shall we show him some tapes of what many consider to be the best overall Dman in the NHL in Chara???..


FYI, Bourque and Nieds didn't win a Norris by the time they were 24. Maybe it's time people talk of PK as a special player too, not a rookie with this false belief that he has some type of attitude issue.

Ya people overreact to the benching. It was useless. The comments though were pretty ridiculous.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

A lot of over reaction - not sure if anyone listened to McGuire today but he was in favor of the benching. He also said that the Habs should show PK video of Bourque, Nedermeyer abd Leetch to teach Subban composure.

PK's on ice talent is undeniable but he still is not a complete player. The ceiling is not just a flashy offense first, awesome skate and skill player, but a true team leader who is reliable in all game situations.

If you don't see the flaws in PK's game you are not paying attention - and this does not mean he's not the best we have.

PK is not improving. At least not as much as he could be and he is not because our coach sucks balls in areas where he could help PK (technically).

 

[PsychoticHab]

And the same can be said about MT coaching. MT should be the first 'leader' in this group and act as it. I see more flaws in MT than in Subban

One of the thing I notice a lot lately is when Subban is in the O zone, he has a chance to make a play but will simply dump the puck and put wheels to go back right away. The safe play is probably the one the coach loves the most but in my mind, Subban strength is actually the ability to make those offensive zone plays.

I always prefer to exploit strenght then covering weakness. But that's my opinion. How Subban will progress under another coach is something we'll never know but benching him because he made a mistake, constantly on his back, take off his natural instinct and force him into a theoretically a better 'well rounded' player is the way it should be ?

I guess we'll have to wait and see. I do think that MT did some good to Subban as a player but a lot of times, he strikes me frankly as someone who just needs to remind his authority.

Well, I don't think anyone is arguing that. (Not that I've seen at least)

Nobody is denying flaws. The guy is 24.

Bourque, Nieds and Leetch all had their share of flaws at 24 too. Nothing wrong with showing PK tapes of all the greats. Not sure what this has anything to do with losing his cool after a scrum. This happens to veterans and even the greatest leaders.
Players gets frustrated, they take dumb penalties. No need to bench anybody for that. It happened to Bourque, Nieds and Leetch, even later in their careers.
Shall we show him some tapes of what many consider to be the best overall Dman in the NHL in Chara???..


FYI, Bourque and Nieds didn't win a Norris by the time they were 24. Maybe it's time people talk of PK as a special player too, not a rookie with this false belief that he has some type of attitude issue.

Ya people overreact to the benching. It was useless. The comments though were pretty ridiculous.

What about if we add Nicklas Lidstrom to the list of greats Subban could learn from? (The guy who kept Chara from winning as many Norris' as he could have in his prime) I would never expect Subban to match Lidstrom in terms of composure and discipline but if there's one thing he could still learn from Lidstrom it would be that.

 

[Andrei79]

He's wildly inconsistent during a game. He can look like the worst player on the ice in the first, and the best player in the league in the third. I would be frustrated too at him as a coach, since he's more motivated and skilled than anyone else on D in the league. That doesn't mean Therrien's act isn't getting old. You have to adapt at some point, PK's not a player you give no room to either.

 

[Habsterix*]

I could comment on the color of Gorges' nose, but I won't...

Look, Habs management will make some bad moves from time to time, there's no problem in talking about it. Reading your posts, it's like Bergevin is the Lord himself and can do no wrong. It gets old quickly...

It's a few former players who say that the benching is appreciated by others in the dressing room because no one is bigger than the team. You're proving the point that Subban can do no bad. That's wearing rose glasses.

 

[Brainiac]

It's a few former players who say that the benching is appreciated by others in the dressing room because no one is bigger than the team. You're proving the point that Subban can do no bad. That's wearing rose glasses.

I don't see where I wrote that? I even wrote, in a previous post, that the penalty was indeed extremely stupid.

Stop putting words into my mouth, it's not helping when trying to have a constructive discussion.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

What about if we add Nicklas Lidstrom to the list of greats Subban could learn from? (The guy who kept Chara from winning as many Norris' as he could have in his prime) I would never expect Subban to match Lidstrom in terms of composure and discipline but if there's one thing he could still learn from Lidstrom it would be that.

It's not all bad though... I don't want Subban to try to be Lidstrom anymore than I'd have wanted Chelios to try to be Coffey or Richard to be Beliveau.

PK plays with an edge. For the most part it works for him as he draws more penalties than he takes. He plays with passion and the bigger the game the better he plays. Yes, he's cocky. So was Patrick Roy and to a lesser extent Chris Chelios. Some guys thrive on this and you've got to take the good with the bad. Mario Tremblay believed that Roy's ego had to be cut down to size and came in to "tame" him... we all know how that worked out. Not suggesting that this is what will happen with PK here, just saying that not all players should be handled the same.

This does not excuse the bad penalty (and it was bad) but I don't think that we bench him here. I think we need to do a better job handling this. Like another poster wrote above, pull him aside and tell him: "You put us behind the 8 ball with that stupid penalty, go fix it" and then send him out.

Benching him in that kind of game just doesn't serve any purpose and doesn't do anything to help the team. I get the mentality that MT is saying nobody is bigger than the team - fair enough. But different individuals learn in different ways. And this whole idea that PK needing fixing (which we heard from MT before he'd even coached a game with PK) was probably misplaced to begin with.

The comments we read from MB and MT - basically insinuating that they deserved the credit for Subban being on Team Canada - were brutal. Don't know if those comments had to do with them not wanting to have too big a head after making Canada or if it was to make a point during contract negotiations or what... but those comments were dumb.

What is clear though is that this guy is cocky and we consider this a sin. Maybe we should just let him play cocky. Some guys (Roy) play better that way. Doesn't mean you can't pull them aside when they make a mistake or that we let him do whatever the hell he wants but not all players should be coached the same way.

 

[Kriss E]

What about if we add Nicklas Lidstrom to the list of greats Subban could learn from? (The guy who kept Chara from winning as many Norris' as he could have in his prime) I would never expect Subban to match Lidstrom in terms of composure and discipline but if there's one thing he could still learn from Lidstrom it would be that.

But who cares about Lidstrom? Is PK Lidstrom? Does he play the same game??
PK is PK. He isn't Bourque, or Leetch, or Lidstrom, or Chara.
Let him play his game. You got to live with the bad because he's going to bring a lot more good than it. You can still help him and try to improve his game, but you don't need to bench him after a bad penalty. I mean really..He's a freaking Norris winner, I can't stress this enough.
And after you bench him? You put him back?? Wow. Great freaking strategy. I'm sure he learned a whole lot there.

 

[Kriss E]

It's a few former players who say that the benching is appreciated by others in the dressing room because no one is bigger than the team. You're proving the point that Subban can do no bad. That's wearing rose glasses.

Dandenault said as a player he can agree with making him miss one shift, but after that, he's looking at the score board, the time keeps winding down, they're down 2, they need to score so he would want him back on the ice.
Because after all, winning is what it's all about in the end right??
And not pulling the goalie was just bad, but even worse was his reasoning.

 

[Habsterix*]

But who cares about Lidstrom? Is PK Lidstrom? Does he play the same game??
PK is PK. He isn't Bourque, or Leetch, or Lidstrom, or Chara.
Let him play his game. You got to live with the bad because he's going to bring a lot more good than it. You can still help him and try to improve his game, but you don't need to bench him after a bad penalty. I mean really..He's a freaking Norris winner, I can't stress this enough.
And after you bench him? You put him back?? Wow. Great freaking strategy. I'm sure he learned a whole lot there.

"At the end of the day he has to make decisions that are in the best interest of the team," Subban said. "We're running a team here. It's not P.K.'s team. It's not Carey Price's team. It's the Montreal Canadiens and everybody has to fall under the same rules, so that's what it is."

 

[Andy]

Therrien was almost universally panned for what he did to Subban. Ferraro, Nilan, Flynn were all on TSN 690 heavily critiquing Therrien, saying that it's the type of decision that gets coaches in trouble in the long term. PJ stock lost a fuse on AC, and Damphousse and Carbonneau quietly agreed with PJ. Now Dandenault commented on it as well.

Almost all media pundits, not former players or coaches, were baffled by the decision as well. The only people supportive are the usual suspects on this forum who defend any decision Bergevin and Therrien do.

It was such a ridiculous decision, anyone who supports it is a massive massive homer.

 

[MTL-rules]

But who cares about Lidstrom? Is PK Lidstrom? Does he play the same game??
PK is PK. He isn't Bourque, or Leetch, or Lidstrom, or Chara.
Let him play his game. You got to live with the bad because he's going to bring a lot more good than it. You can still help him and try to improve his game, but you don't need to bench him after a bad penalty. I mean really..He's a freaking Norris winner, I can't stress this enough.
And after you bench him? You put him back?? Wow. Great freaking strategy. I'm sure he learned a whole lot there.

So because he won this award he's sure to be great all his career and we can't try to improve his weaknesses ?

Does Jonathan Cheechoo rings any bell to you, the guy won the Rocket trophy and scored 56 goals... where is he now ? Nothing prevents Subban from being a fluke... he still has a lot to learn.

 

[jeangauthier]

You don`t bench your star in a winnable situation...........poor coaching decision.......

 

[overlords]

Therrien was almost universally panned for what he did to Subban. Ferraro, Nilan, Flynn were all on TSN 690 heavily critiquing Therrien, saying that it's the type of decision that gets coaches in trouble in the long term. PJ stock lost a fuse on AC, and Damphousse and Carbonneau quietly agreed with PJ. Now Dandenault commented on it as well.

Almost all media pundits, not former players or coaches, were baffled by the decision as well. The only people supportive are the usual suspects on this forum who defend any decision Bergevin and Therrien do.

It was such a ridiculous decision, anyone who supports it is a massive massive homer.

Really? Even PJ? Man I gotta see that.

 

[DAChampion]

So because he won this award he's sure to be great all his career and we can't try to improve his weaknesses ?

Does Jonathan Cheechoo rings any bell to you, the guy won the Rocket trophy and scored 56 goals... where is he now ? Nothing prevents Subban from being a fluke... he still has a lot to learn.

Are you comparing PK Subban to Jonathan Cheechoo?

 

[MonkeyBusiness]

Really? Even PJ? Man I gotta see that.

Yup even P.j couldn't get over the benching, it really was a dumb decision.

 

[Andy]

Really? Even PJ? Man I gotta see that.

PJ lost his mind on Antichambre. Thought the decision was absurd especially when they are players who are more deserving of benching. He said you bench players who are lazy and not willing to give an effort, you don't bench players that show passion and a will to win, even if they sometimes make stupid decisions because of said passion. He said all great players make mistakes every game and that as a coach you live with them because their good always always outweighs the bad mistakes. A guy like PK needs to play, he's your best player, the only game changer in terms of score and mood, you don't bench him in a winnable game. Two goals isn't insurmountable. Then he said it showed PK wasn't there because in the entire time he was benched, the Canadiens had 1 shot on goal, which was more of a dump in for a line change.

Chris Nilan called it the kind of the decision that hurt coaches in the long-term. Normand Flynn said that he lost a coaching job earlier in his career for the same thing and said he learned that your star players are your star players, they are the guys you win with and because they have exceptional talents they are given exceptions other players don't. He said it's one thing if it is an isolated incident, but Therrien continues to single out PK all the time. Flynn said the last time MT stopped is when reporters brought PK's ice time up early decemeber, after which MT changed his tune. Now he appears to be back at it.

Carbonneau said it's something you see happen in junior and expects different in the nhl. PK is not a rookie.

 

[Stjonnypopo]

He's wildly inconsistent during a game. He can look like the worst player on the ice in the first, and the best player in the league in the third. I would be frustrated too at him as a coach, since he's more motivated and skilled than anyone else on D in the league. That doesn't mean Therrien's act isn't getting old. You have to adapt at some point, PK's not a player you give no room to either.

I agree that his performance can vary a lot during a game, but he's never the worst player on the ice. Because of his speed and his ability to play the body he'll never be the worst guy on the ice, but he can make some bad mistakes. Fortunately he works his ass off and usually makes up for his mistakes during the games.

 

[Stjonnypopo]

So because he won this award he's sure to be great all his career and we can't try to improve his weaknesses ?

Does Jonathan Cheechoo rings any bell to you, the guy won the Rocket trophy and scored 56 goals... where is he now ? Nothing prevents Subban from being a fluke... he still has a lot to learn.

Cheechoo had Thornton. Subban was mostly due to himself and Markov, and our system. I think it's always possible that he regresses, but he'll never be a bad player. If we signed him to a contract worth 5 million (which I know is impossible) he will always earn at least that much, even if he goes through a big cold streak. The problem with paying him 9M is that that's what he's worth in his prime at the top of his game, and when he's off his game he'll be a couple million overpaid.

 

[macavoy]

I don't really like Therrien but I'd probably classify myself as a Therrien defender because too many people bash him for the tiniest thing but that was a bad play by Therrien. At some point, you have to realize as a coach that PK is a no longer a young kid who needs to be disciplined. The fact he is almost 25 and turning in his second season as a Norris nominee, you have to realize that he is a franchise player and you need to focus now on developing his leadership skills and getting him to take ownership of this team.

If it's true that MB was looking to trade Gionta, you have to realize that this team's future rests on PK, Price, Patches and Galchenyuk. They need to be realizing that PK has captain material written all over him and they need to help him hone those skills.

 

[Andy]

Subban came into the season like 7 games late last year without training camp and came out flying at the top of his game. It had nothing to do with Therrien and everything to do with natural progression. He was a star waiting to happen, all it needed was time. Anyone who refuses to admit this is lying to themselves.

Just go back and watch his performance in 09-10 against Crosby, stepping into the league at playoff time! PK carried Markov's load for two years after at such a young age. He was fantastic and many many many posters here saw and claimed that he would be a star in no time. There were posts, prior to the start of last season, suggesting that he could be a Norris winner in the near future, and low and behold, he won it last year.

Everyone saw PKs talent, everyone knew it would continue to improve, there was no reason to not expect it. Anyone who saw PK play in the juniors, Ahl and then the nhl knew that improvement was just part of PKs character. Every year he got better by leaps and bounds and there was no reason to expect a halt. Therrien taking credit for what was already going to happen is ****ing ridiculous.

Lucky PK has always had a diplomatic character, always, and doesn't come out and call out his coach. Instead he shuts up and takes it like a man in public, like he did with Martin and Cunneyworth...it didn't change under Therrien.

MT has developed Subban as much as he developed Crosby and as much as Denis Savard developed Patrick Kane and Jonathan Toews.

 

[Habsterix*]

Subban came into the season like 7 games late last year without training camp and came out flying at the top of his game. It had nothing to do with Therrien and everything to do with natural progression. He was a star waiting to happen, all it needed was time. Anyone who refuses to admit this is lying to themselves.

Just go back and watch his performance in 09-10 against Crosby, stepping into the league at playoff time! PK carried Markov's load for two years after at such a young age. He was fantastic and many many many posters here saw and claimed that he would be a star in no time. There were posts, prior to the start of last season, suggesting that he could be a Norris winner in the near future, and low and behold, he won it last year.

Everyone saw PKs talent, everyone knew it would continue to improve, there was no reason to not expect it. Anyone who saw PK play in the juniors, Ahl and then the nhl knew that improvement was just part of PKs character. Every year he got better by leaps and bounds and there was no reason to expect a halt. Therrien taking credit for what was already going to happen is ****ing ridiculous.

Lucky PK has always had a diplomatic character, always, and doesn't come out and call out his coach. Instead he shuts up and takes it like a man in public, like he did with Martin and Cunneyworth...it didn't change under Therrien.

MT has developed Subban as much as he developed Crosby and as much as Denis Savard developed Patrick Kane and Jonathan Toews.

If you can't see the difference in Subban's play since Therrien took over this team, there is nothing to debate with you. When he was first hired, Therrien described Subban as a thoroughbred needing to be guided and to even suggest that he played no role in his development is simply playing ostrich, putting your head in the sand ignoring the reality. In no way does that take anything away from Subban's character, talent or dedication to improving his game, far from there as to his credit, he obviously did apply what he was asked to do.

I was listening to Rodger Brulotte last night and he brought up a very good point about Therrien's comments about how Subban wouldn't have made Team Canada had he kept playing like he was in October... At the end of Therrien's statement, he said "Trust me on that". Brulotte thinks (and it makes sense) that Therrien knows more than people lead to beleive. He thinks that it was reported to Therrien that Subban had to improve on some aspects of his game, and that he and Subban knew about it and were working together on improving those points. The fact that he was selected could very well be, in part at least, due to the fact that Therrien knew about things to work on and that's what guided his comment about their work with him and would also explain why Subban is so humble in his comments: he knows too.

So while I'm not in the game of taking credit away from Subban, I'm also not ignorant enough to think that Subban got where he is in spite of the coach, far from there.

 

[Account Terminated]

As much as I hated the Subban benching, Gorges brought something to light that got me thinking.

Markov was benched last year, during a game against Toronto, after taking a stupid penalty. No revolt there, no media frenzy asking players why it happened, no radio talk shows blasting the coaching staff. On top of that, it seems like the players understand that if PK got benched, Therrien isn't afraid to bench anyone.

On the subject of the benching itself; it was the wrong move. The team showed absolutely no energy or structure. Nobody, save for three people; Subban, Gallagher, Prust. At the time, Subban was frustrated and threw a punch at Couturier (who, by the way, looked at the ref like a prissy little baby). Was it a bad move? Of course it was. Stupid penalty? You betcha. But Subban demonstrated emotion and showed his energy through a punch that said, "You know what? **** you, I'm pissed and you're ugly." I would have benched Subban if this was a 3-3 hockey game. Down two goals? I'd pat him on the back and tell him that this was the type of energy we needed.

For this argument; I see both sides of the coin. Stupid to bench your best player but maybe this was the right wake-up call the team needed.

 

[Habsawce]

I hope PK's new contract comes with a NTC (No Therrien Clause)