News Article: Subban's next contract

[Frozenice]

I'm sorry, but I don't see any risk here. Would you sign him for four? Five?

At some point he's going to be a UFA. You can't try to force your players to play on your terms all the time, certainly not with a talent like Subban.

Let me throw you out another scenario... Meehan comes to you and says: "Look, PK wants to stay but we don't know where the cap's going to be in 2017 and we don't want to leave money on the table. So we'll sign 3 x 8.5 now and re-up with you then, or you can give us 8 x 11 to mitigate the risk."

Because there is a financial risk for Subban to re-up now at 8x8. I hope he does it and it's over with but if he were to say 8x3 then I don't see how anyone could blame him. The Habs might be forced to decide between 3 x 8.5 or something vs. 8 x something a lot higher. Meehan's not stupid, he knows that cap is going up, is PK going to want to be playing for 8 mil a year in 5 years when the best blueliners are making 10 or 11? That's got to be bouncing around in his mind right now.

You seem to think that he's going to sign for three and then bolt. I don't see that happening and even if it were the case his trade value is still going to be high if we did it in the final year.

Think about what you're suggesting here for a second. You would want to trade arguably the best blueliner in the game because he only wants to sign with you for three seasons? What will you get in return? We saw this movie with Chris Chelios, do we want that situation again? Because this time there's no Patrick Roy and a strong team to win us a cup. Losing Subban would set us back years. And we do this all over the paranoia that he might leave after the contract. I don't follow your logic here.

Now you're speculating about some deal between Meehan and MB. Sure, maybe, but that is a lot further out there then I ever went.

Six years would be the shortest length I'd be willing to go, especially if MB is planning to be a contending team in two or three years. At least then we should have a couple of chances to make a Cup run. Losing him at 30 won't hurt nearly as much as losing him at 26 or 27.

 

[PsychoticHab]

The period ended and we were playing like crap. Spare me that killed momentum excuse.
The period ended, and we killed the penalty right? Why didn't that generate some momentum?? After all, we were carrying in some right?? But no, now we have to point to Subban for killing our momentum making it seem as if he prevented us from making a comeback..

Dude, seriously, it was useless. There was 18min left to get something going. Nothing happened. So ya, penalty was dumb. We benched our best player for it, that was also dumb. Did it change anything to the way we played? Nope. We looked like crap all game, it continued in the 3rd with PK on the bench, and it continued with him on it too. It literally changed absolutely nothing to the game.

If it "Changed Absolutely Nothing" one way or the other, then why try and make a giant deal out of Subban being treated like his teammates? (Many have been benched for dumb mistakes and Subban has much more leeway in that category for all he brings)

MT does so many things wrong with this team,most of which is unanimous among the fans, why concentrate on such a small event that was not necessarily mishandled?

 

[Kriss E]

If it "Changed Absolutely Nothing" one way or the other, then why try and make a giant deal out of Subban being treated like his teammates? (Many have been benched for dumb mistakes and Subban has much more leeway in that category for all he brings)

MT does so many things wrong with this team,most of which is unanimous among the fans, why concentrate on such a small event that was not necessarily mishandled?

It was pointless. I'm not trying to make a big deal out of it, but when someone says he agrees with the benching, then I'm gonna ask why and then argue about it.
If you think it's pointless, why scratch him in the first place?
It's not going to change anything. PK will keep being the target of players, he will keep getting into scrums, and he will get caught retaliating because some players got under his skin. It's going to happen again.

With all that being said, there's one thing you ALWAYS have to keep in mind. We are better with PK than without. That's a cold hard fact.

 

[Habsterix*]

You want some kool-aid with your kool-aid??

You should offer it to Gorges, as those were HIS quotes.

 

[PsychoticHab]

It was pointless. I'm not trying to make a big deal out of it, but when someone says he agrees with the benching, then I'm gonna ask why and then argue about it.
If you think it's pointless, why scratch him in the first place?
It's not going to change anything. PK will keep being the target of players, he will keep getting into scrums, and he will get caught retaliating because some players got under his skin. It's going to happen again.

With all that being said, there's one thing you ALWAYS have to keep in mind. We are better with PK than without. That's a cold hard fact.

Over his time in the NHL, Subban has matured and become much less susceptible to retaliating to provocation. In this case Subban made a mistake and was then served a reminder of what will not be tolerated from anyone on the team.

Will he ever do it again? Probably eventually but the point is to make sure that a stray mistake does not become a force of habit.

As for making a big deal out of it, I wasn't targeting you (sorry if it looked that way) but I was more referring to the massive group that tried to make this as the biggest point of last game and MT's coaching career when this shouldn't even be the biggest story talked about from that game.

 

[Kriss E]

Over his time in the NHL, Subban has matured and become much less susceptible to retaliating to provocation. In this case Subban made a mistake and was then served a reminder of what will not be tolerated from anyone on the team.

Will he ever do it again? Probably eventually but the point is to make sure that a stray mistake does not become a force of habit.

As for making a big deal out of it, I wasn't targeting you (sorry if it looked that way) but I was more referring to the massive group that tried to make this as the biggest point of last game and MT's coaching career when this shouldn't even be the biggest story talked about from that game.

Fair enough, although retaliatory penalties have happened all year and many of our players have gotten cut for it. I don't recall any of them being benched for it though.

 

[PsychoticHab]

Four shots in the final period... I'd say it made us worse.

We had 5 shots in the 3rd and had 6 shots in the 2nd. (P.K. played the whole 2nd period)

Not having P.K. on the ice makes us worse on paper but let's face fact, against Philadelphia (for that game) our team played just as bad whether Subban was out there or not.

 

[Kriss E]

We had 5 shots in the 3rd and had 6 shots in the 2nd. (P.K. played the whole 2nd period)

Not having P.K. on the ice makes us worse on paper but let's face fact, against Philadelphia (for that game) our team played just as bad whether Subban was out there or not.

Irrelevant though. If you want to score a goal, who do you put on the ice??
Therrien knows this too, that's why PK was back on the ice. If we were winning this game, PK wouldn't have played in the 3rd.

 

[PsychoticHab]

Fair enough, although retaliatory penalties have happened all year and many of our players have gotten cut for it. I don't recall any of them being benched for it though.

This year I can't remember many, if any, benchings for retaliations but I don't remember any cases as obvious as Subban's. The most obvious case I can remember for this type of situation was White last year but he was rightfully benched for something close to a month as his infractions were much more egregious and he did not (and still doesn't) have the status of P.K. Subban. (Rightfully so)

In the case of benchings, Chucky has taken a few for lack of backchecking and not following the gameplan of dump and chase where he tried to carry the puck into the zone himself. (I don't agree with MT's gameplan but as long as he's here it's his way or the highway)

Briere has had a few benchings for dumb turnovers and careless play with the puck. Emelin recently has suffered for weak play in his zone. As Gorges pointed out, even Markov suffered a benching last year too for careless play against the Leafs. Prust and Moen have at times missed a shift for weak play early in the year although now seem to be the players that get moved up when someone else is benched. Even Murray and Bouillon were skipped a couple times this season in their limited play. (Just wish MT would stop using Bouillon on the PP)

Finally, to start last year, Eller was benched to send the message that he had to buy into the team's gameplan. (Regardless of how much us fans don't like it)

 

[overlords]

How in the world is pissing off your star player a long term gain?

Builds CHaracter

 

[Kriss E]

This year I can't remember many, if any, benchings for retaliations but I don't remember any cases as obvious as Subban's. The most obvious case I can remember for this type of situation was White last year but he was rightfully benched for something close to a month as his infractions were much more egregious and he did not (and still doesn't) have the status of P.K. Subban. (Rightfully so)

In the case of benchings, Chucky has taken a few for lack of backchecking and not following the gameplan of dump and chase where he tried to carry the puck into the zone himself. (I don't agree with MT's gameplan but as long as he's here it's his way or the highway)

Briere has had a few benchings for dumb turnovers and careless play with the puck. Emelin recently has suffered for weak play in his zone. As Gorges pointed out, even Markov suffered a benching last year too for careless play against the Leafs. Prust and Moen have at times missed a shift for weak play early in the year although now seem to be the players that get moved up when someone else is benched. Even Murray and Bouillon were skipped a couple times this season in their limited play. (Just wish MT would stop using Bouillon on the PP)

Finally, to start last year, Eller was benched to send the message that he had to buy into the team's gameplan. (Regardless of how much us fans don't like it)

None of the guys you mentioned are the leading scorers of our team, nor have they won the Norris. An honor not even 30 people in History have received.

 

[Brainiac]

You should offer it to Gorges, as those were HIS quotes.

I could comment on the color of Gorges' nose, but I won't...

Look, Habs management will make some bad moves from time to time, there's no problem in talking about it. Reading your posts, it's like Bergevin is the Lord himself and can do no wrong. It gets old quickly...

 

[PsychoticHab]

Irrelevant though. If you want to score a goal, who do you put on the ice??
Therrien knows this too, that's why PK was back on the ice. If we were winning this game, PK wouldn't have played in the 3rd.

It helps to have P.K. out there, no doubt, but within the spectrum of that particular game, Subban didn't show anything that he was willing or able to take over the game even for just one shift.

Sadly, even Bouillon made better use of his PP time than Subban did during the first 2 periods as he was the only D-Man to be able to maintain the puck in the zone. In Subban's defense though, Markov constantly giving the puck back to the Flyers played a bigger part in the failure than Subban's play did but regardless no one showed any ability to take over.

Like I mentioned earlier, Gionta, Plekanec, Briere, Murray, and Bouillon had been at the heart of our last 2 goal comeback in the 3rd period. As a team effort though on Wednesday, there was very little there to believe Subban or any other individual player, could have made a difference without a complete team effort which we lacked outside of the first 2 minutes of the game. (Still no reason for MT not pulling the goalie though and giving up in the game)

As for that last statement, you are probably right, Subban most likely would not have seen the ice in the 3rd had we been winning. However, had we been winning, would he have let Couturier get under his skin like that? Maybe/Maybe not

 

[PsychoticHab]

None of the guys you mentioned are the leading scorers of our team, nor have they won the Norris. An honor not even 30 people in History have received.

You are right and if Subban makes a turnover like Briere or has a bad shift like Chucky, or any of the offenses I mentioned were committed by his teammates I would not expect him to be outright bench for most of, if not all of a period. He's earned the status that, unless it is a repeated mistake, he shouldn't be benched for attempting to create offense in a risk/reward scenario.

The mistake Subban committed however was not an "In Play" infraction and he let his emotions get the best of him. I would expect anyone that commits one of these that isn't Subban to miss at least one period if not more. We've had roughing minors this year but they almost always include an offsetting minor for the other guy. As much as I wouldn't like Subban sitting on the penalty bench, had he taken Couturier with him it would be a completely different story.

 

[Kriss E]

It helps to have P.K. out there, no doubt, but within the spectrum of that particular game, Subban didn't show anything that he was willing or able to take over the game even for just one shift.

Sadly, even Bouillon made better use of his PP time than Subban did during the first 2 periods as he was the only D-Man to be able to maintain the puck in the zone. In Subban's defense though, Markov constantly giving the puck back to the Flyers played a bigger part in the failure than Subban's play did but regardless no one showed any ability to take over.

Like I mentioned earlier, Gionta, Plekanec, Briere, Murray, and Bouillon had been at the heart of our last 2 goal comeback in the 3rd period. As a team effort though on Wednesday, there was very little there to believe Subban or any other individual player, could have made a difference without a complete team effort which we lacked outside of the first 2 minutes of the game. (Still no reason for MT not pulling the goalie though and giving up in the game)

As for that last statement, you are probably right, Subban most likely would not have seen the ice in the 3rd had we been winning. However, had we been winning, would he have let Couturier get under his skin like that? Maybe/Maybe not

Dude, it's all irrelevant. That was my point (that you acknowledged no less) about PK being the type of player being able to change the outcome of a game within a shift.

So it doesn't matter how crappy he was before. He can go out and create something all by himself. That's all that matters.

 

[Aceekay]

How do you know he was truly pissed off? I'll grant that he was likely frustrated (although I'm guessing he knew it was coming) but saying that he reached the level of "pissed off" seems extreme without proof.

He says all the right things to be a "team player" but at times does not necessarily put in the actions to put the team ahead of himself.

So if he was pissed off, are you saying Subban is willing to "talk the talk" about being a team player but is not willing to "walk the walk"?

Subban had every reason to be pissed after getting benched. His team was losing, he's our best player everyone knows it, why is he on the bench at this crucial point?

I don't believe for one second he realized he was getting benched for that penalty, only an incompetent coach would do that.

So now players aren't allowed to be upset at the coach because of the 'team' concept. Ironic because Therrien's actions cost this team more than subban's, tell me again who's the one who doesn't understand how to be a team player, Subban or Therrien?

 

[PsychoticHab]

Dude, it's all irrelevant. That was my point (that you acknowledged no less) about PK being the type of player being able to change the outcome of a game within a shift.

So it doesn't matter how crappy he was before. He can go out and create something all by himself. That's all that matters.

How many times does any star take over a game in one shift after having been invisible by their standards or just generally bad (along with their teammates) during that game?

I understand your point but what I'm trying to say is that a player that takes over like that (seemingly over a single shift) tends to show signs of breaking out (a good pass, a good deke, well timed shot, good hit or whatever) at least one or more shift before they actually do. On the surface they look bad but build their own momentum slowly. I'm not sure any player, Crosby included, could completely turn it on or off in the span of one shift unless the other team makes a massive mistake.

Subban had showed none of these signs however and the Flyers' prevent defense pretty much eliminated a big mistake. We needed to grind our way back in the game and for that it takes a full team effort. Would Subban have helped in that? Maybe but we had 6 other D-Men and some were having at least as good of a game as Subban had been.

Subban ended the game with the 3rd most ice time despite the benching and did not take advantage of it regardless. (Just behind Markov and Plekanec)

 

[overlords]

How many times does any star take over a game in one shift after having been invisible by their standards or just generally bad (along with their teammates) during that game?

I understand your point but what I'm trying to say is that a player that takes over like that (seemingly over a single shift) tends to show signs of breaking out (a good pass, a good deke, well timed shot, good hit or whatever) at least one or more shift before they actually do. On the surface they look bad but build their own momentum slowly. I'm not sure any player, Crosby included, could completely turn it on or off in the span of one shift unless the other team makes a massive mistake.

Subban had showed none of these signs however and the Flyers' prevent defense pretty much eliminated a big mistake. We needed to grind our way back in the game and for that it takes a full team effort. Would Subban have helped in that? Maybe but we had 6 other D-Men and some were having at least as good of a game as Subban had been.

Subban ended the game with the 3rd most ice time despite the benching and did not take advantage of it regardless. (Just behind Markov and Plekanec)

Nobody was having 'at least as good a game as subban'. That's absolutely ****ing ridiculous. On Subban's worst nights, he's still clearly the best D on the team.

Why did we need to 'grind' our way back in? You sound like you just regurgitate every dinosaur hockey platitude out there.

 

[PsychoticHab]

Subban had every reason to be pissed after getting benched. His team was losing, he's our best player everyone knows it, why is he on the bench at this crucial point?

I don't believe for one second he realized he was getting benched for that penalty, only an incompetent coach would do that.

So now players aren't allowed to be upset at the coach because of the 'team' concept. Ironic because Therrien's actions cost this team more than subban's, tell me again who's the one who doesn't understand how to be a team player, Subban or Therrien?

I'm not defending Therrien, I'd like to see him being showed the door for his poor game management of tactics and forcing his team into a style they just don't match. MT just is not right for this team and there are many reasons he should be fired. My only point is that his handling of the younger players is one of the rare things he's been decent at.

In the end, within that particular game, I don't think Subban really cost us the game as I doubt even if he hadn't been benched it would have made a difference on the ice. MT sent a message instead that no player is above the team. The entire team failed to show up and if Budaj hadn't showed up in the second and third we wouldn't even have had a chance to be close. On the other hand, not pulling the goalie shows a problem in MT being our coach not because we would have won otherwise (unlikely) but it shows an attitude of surrendering a game. (Did MT ever make a statement as to his reasoning? I'd be interested to hear it)

This isn't the first time Subban loses a shift or two this year so let's not pretend this benching blindsided him.

 

[PsychoticHab]

Nobody was having 'at least as good a game as subban'. That's absolutely ****ing ridiculous. On Subban's worst nights, he's still clearly the best D on the team.

Why did we need to 'grind' our way back in? You sound like you just regurgitate every dinosaur hockey platitude out there.

My "grinding" comment is because that's the only style MT will allow the Habs to play. (Not exactly complicated) Do I think it should be our style? No, but that's the only style our players are allowed to practice. A prevent defense is not exactly the time to try and get fancy without practice either with exception for the aspect of carrying the puck across the blue line. (Even if I think we'd be more suited for that style eventually when MT is gone)

As for the other part, on his worse nights Subban may be our best offensive defenseman (especially with the recent play of Markov) but on a bad night defensively Gorges at least tends to be equally reliable in his zone. (Obviously he's not a complete D-Man like Subban) As for that game, hell the Diaz/Bouillon pairing on the PP looked better than the Subban/Markov pairing did in their time. (Could have been on Markov and definitely partially on MT) Does that mean the minutes should be inversed? Of course not, but my point is regardless of who was out there Wednesday was not our night. (Only the Markov/Emelin seemed to be lost out there while the rest were all average at best including Subban)

Anyway, the entire point of all my posts is that this team will be fine and that the fans need to relax. (This board needs to stop pushing the panic button after every loss) MT needs to go but can we at least keep our priorities straight as the reason why he should be fired and that is that he is an awful tactician and a poor motivator outside of the first few times he uses his speeches.

 

[calder candidate]

PK will get a 8 year contrat... the only question is how will it be structure will he get a AAV of 6.5M$ like Pietrangelo and Karlson are getting or is he going to cash in on the cap going up.

FYI MT as bench other player... We just don't notice since their invisible anyway...

 

[Aceekay]

PK will get a 8 year contrat... the only question is how will it be structure will he get a AAV of 6.5M$ like Pietrangelo and Karlson are getting or is he going to cash in on the cap going up.

FYI MT as bench other player... We just don't notice since their invisible anyway...

you're in for a big surprise if you think 6.5 is close to what he will be getting.

 

[PsychoticHab]

PK will get a 8 year contrat... the only question is how will it be structure will he get a AAV of 6.5M$ like Pietrangelo and Karlson are getting or is he going to cash in on the cap going up.

FYI MT as bench other player... We just don't notice since their invisible anyway...

I have to imagine he'll get a blank cheque and any amount he thinks of will be considered. I would be shocked if it is for less that $8M and wouldn't be surprised if $9M is the result.

Whatever the number ends up being (let's say less that $10M just to set some standard) Subban deserves it with his talent and the results he produces on most nights. He is our best player, only rivaled by Price, and deserves to be paid as such.

I think the bigger question will be the years of the contract and that will be if he wants a 2nd big contract on his prime and therefore a slightly shorter contract this year to have a second chance to renegotiate 5 or so years in the future for even more money with the salary cap exploding. Whatever Subban wants here, I think MTL has to give it to him anyway.

 

[vfactor]

I think we tend to forget one thing: the most important thing to MT is winning games and not player development. That may be second, but a distant second to winning games. His career, his resume depend on it more than the future of the players and quite frankly Habs organization. This is not a default per se. Probably any coach in the NHL has the same mindset.

In my opinion, this is where the problem lies. MT knows one way of coaching and his style of coaching demand absolute control on his players. His game plan demands his player to 'sacrifice' everything for the team, team first, winning is everything. Winning is very important to MT. He will constantly remind his players who's the boss because that's the cornerstone of his success. Mt will never change or adapt to his player, he's the boss with absolute authority. His coaching style suits best junior hockey.

It sounds good but in reality, it won't work for long. Players are individual with goals and desire, especially in 2013. Hockey is still a very traditional sport where players still respect authority a lot. But it doesn't mean that they are sheeps. MT will always have success at first because players will give him a chance but for how long ?

Respect is not something you can simply impose. MT, as a coach, makes mistakes or doubtful decisions every game but he will point out every single error his player made. Imagine you work for a boss who will call you out on your mistake even though he is far from perfect. He still wants you to follow him, work hard, fight for him because he's the boss. I don't think it works in 2013. Hockey is an error game, you try not to make mistakes but if you play to not making any mistake, you won't win neither. Players probably want to have some fun while playing too. It doesn't look like they have too much fun right now.

MT may think himself as an 'old school' but 'old school' does not mean good. It's really a cliche we hear a lot in any domain and it bugs the hell of me. If 'old school' is the way to go, the world will still live in 1900's.

M. Cantin de La Presse is right, Therrien is back to the old Therrien. His record right now gives him and some fans the false illusion of his success as a coach but any impartial fan can tell that the team is very good right now. We're still a team who relies absolutely on Carey Price to win games and has no ability whatsoever to adapt to the game when things don't go our way.

What scares me is that MB seems to have the same mindset. Maybe it's just an appearance for public consumption but they project the image of Bosses who demand respect and recognition but act with arrogance.

Yes, Habs are 3 pts away from Atlantic top but when hardcore fan has problem watching the entire 60 minutes game, even when the game is tie, there's a problem.

As a fan, I am disappointed so far this season. It's almost like waiting for a miracle to see this team has some life back to it.

 

[Habnot]

A lot of over reaction - not sure if anyone listened to McGuire today but he was in favor of the benching. He also said that the Habs should show PK video of Bourque, Nedermeyer abd Leetch to teach Subban composure.

PK's on ice talent is undeniable but he still is not a complete player. The ceiling is not just a flashy offense first, awesome skate and skill player, but a true team leader who is reliable in all game situations.

If you don't see the flaws in PK's game you are not paying attention - and this does not mean he's not the best we have.