News Article: Subban's next contract

[Habsterix*]

It's not the MB & MT cannot do any wrong, many of the non haters have admitted and are aware of their mistakes.

It more the haters that cannot give any credit to the MT or MB no matter what they do.

Bingo, you nailed it right on the head.

 

[vfactor]

This is like the Price scenario all over. The haters hate with such anger and blinders.

It's not the MB & MT cannot do any wrong, many of the non haters have admitted and are aware of their mistakes.

It more the haters that cannot give any credit to the MT or MB no matter what they do.

Alright. Let's settle this. We talk about Subban case only

MB: the bridge contract. This is debatable whether it's good or not for the team financially (depends on the next Subban contract). I am not against it, I don't think it was necessary but it was not terrible neither. It has 2 side effects.

1-Subban feels lowballed. It can be also interpreted as 'we are not so quite sure about your value, prove it'. MB is the first GM who did it to his franchise player. We will never know what he feels really but he took it as a professional and we know the rest. Doughty didn't give in his case, if my memory serves correctly, does it make Doughty a bad boy ? One thing for sure, even if the rule is respected. Subban gave Habs almost 2 full season well under his worth. There's also a real possibility of distrust relationship. Remember, MB didn't give anything (almost), it was really take it or leave it. So this contract will have no discount and Subban agent probably will maximize it to get back the 'lost' in previous contract. To think that Subban and mostly his agent won't take ALL they can get is illogic. Negotiations will probably be difficult and again may result in colder relationship. To think that it's no problem, it's strictly business is also very naive, in my opinion, those guys have huge ego. That's why they reach the tops in theirs professions. Is it necessary all this ? Why other organization seem to sign theirs stars players quite smoothly with, lot of time, hometown discount ?

The fact that the contract is not signed and MB made this declaration is not a sign of great process but then it's not necessary bad neither.

And we have another distraction within 2 years. Subban does not need another potential 'controversy'

2-Pumped Subban feels he needs to prove his worth and played to a Norris winner. This is a correlation that can never be proven. How could you prove this ? If this is a winning strategy, all GMs will apply it to make winners in every position. Kadri has a bridge contract and cannot replicate his last year. There's so many things going into a season and it's a team sport so individual stats are not 100% under player control. I would say A LOT less actually. Do you think Kadri puts less effort ? Was he not pumped ? Or simply because he overachieved last year in a shortened season ? In his case the GM may be correct in doubting his worth ? So the bridge contract serves better as a challenge or a validation ? I would say it is a lot more reliable as a validation. Because you want to avoid exception then create exception (as in challenge case).

If you still think that the bridge contract serves well as a challenge to Subban then don't sign him to a big contract because if you think this guy needs a goal to play at this level then he will regress to bananas level once the fat contract is signed. Human nature, no ?

Is this player has past or presence symptoms of needing motivation to get to the next level ?

MT. Remember MT declaration 'makes Subban a better person'.

This has nothing to do with hockey and this is utter bs. Someone refers that to your son, how do you feel ? Not an insult ? Makes something out of nothing ? This is the case of a coach who hasn't known the player personally yet then already has a pretty bad perception on him. Maybe he hears things or saw things but, at least, knows the player first before saying this stuffs.

I will give credit to MT here on the team records. I believe his coaching will bring in more wins but also hinder players development if it makes sense because it will discourage players 'creativities' or 'emotional plays' in the sense that he will go 'public' to teach the player a lesson. Galchenyuk, Subban come as high profile players who got quite a few public 'punishment'. Does it work ? I don't know. Maybe, maybe not, it it does why it still happens ? Is it because players are stubborn and don't listen to coach or in the high speed action, they simply committed a mistake like thousands of them before and after during a season in the league ?

Again this is highly debatable MT coaching style in correlation to Subban as a Norris winner and Team Canada selection. How do you prove that ? Some will say Subban is now a more well rounded D, some will say that he lost his offensive flair. Will he be better or worse with another coach ? How many players in this league are the results of 'coaching' instead of hard work and talent ?

I think most can agree that Subban has already shown before the new regime his ability to motivate himself and gets to the next level. Look, he's a second rounder with a lot of 'experts' questions on his defensive game. A few years later he wins the Norris in a position where it usually takes more time to mature.

Subban will improve with or without MT is a given to me. MT certainly corrected a few of his lacunes but any other coach would have done the same. It's not like Subban was so flawed that MT was the one who brought him back to the right path.

By this logic, Subban probably won't win Norris this year. Is it MT fault ? Of course not, so why he wins it, it's on the coach ?

Now, MT coaching style is a great 'strategy' ? Did he improve since his first time in Mtl or Pitts ? I see maybe less incidental declarations but looks the same. I raised a question previously in this thread. Do you believe MT in the NHL right now if it's not for Habs special requirement. We will never know but he wasn't even close to get a job before this one (if memory is correct). I won't say it means that he's horrendous but it certainly a sign of pretty ordinary reviews in GMs eyes.

This is not hard facts proofs but at least I can point out the reasons why I think MT and MB are full of themselves when demand recognition to Subban success.

One last thing. Usually, as professional, you don't take recognition yourself. Your good work will be judged accordingly by whoever in charge or with knowledges. Why the hell you need to publicly remind it ? Is it because you are afraid that others can't see it ? It's possible that they can't see it because it's not really there.

For Christ sake, Subban last year and this year, in the player age bracket should be those years when players learned the most.

MB and MT believe they made Subban the player he is. Subban politely answered he doesn't need anyone else to motivate him but thank them for improving the team. Who strike you as cocky and not team player here ?

Now to anyone who still goes with short declaration without any arguments whatsoever to point out my flawed logic and to present theirs and maybe credits will be given. What are MB and MT so important roles in Subban development as a player?

 

[Kriss E]

This is like the Price scenario all over. The haters hate with such anger and blinders.

It's not the MB & MT cannot do any wrong, many of the non haters have admitted and are aware of their mistakes.

It more the haters that cannot give any credit to the MT or MB no matter what they do.

The reality is somewhere in the middle -MB is a rookie GM with a plan that has been approved by management and he is following a tee. He has made mistakes but all GM's make mistakes (What you can't do is McDonough type mistakes) but they are all secondary type deals. But he;s setting a standard of accountability that was so lacking in the organization.

MT is still MT, a scorpion waiting to sting, but he seems to have a system and when executed, it works. He knows he doesn't have the horses to open it up, playing this way is the only chance they have of making the playoffs (and his regular season record proves it) yet according to the haters, he's the worst coach in the NHL and only is there because he's French and a buddy of MB. To think this means you have no idea of the professionalism of the NHL.

Price scenario?? What? Price was brought in and given the top spot, he was protected and never once criticised by management. He had a battle with Halak. I have no clue what you are talking about.

I haven't heard you mention any wrong doing with regards to PK. Even with this management flat out taking the credit for a player's performance. I have never heard any management do this before.

MT a Scorpion? What in god's name are you talking about? We were not playing this way at all last year, so what's the difference? Ryder? We have the same players.

By the way, arguing management has done mistakes and are doing some wrong doesn't make you a hater.

 

[Habnot]

Alright. Let's settle this. We talk about Subban case only

MB: the bridge contract. This is debatable whether it's good or not for the team financially (depends on the next Subban contract). I am not against it, I don't think it was necessary but it was not terrible neither. It has 2 side effects.

1-Subban feels lowballed. It can be also interpreted as 'we are not so quite sure about your value, prove it'. MB is the first GM who did it to his franchise player. We will never know what he feels really but he took it as a professional and we know the rest. Doughty didn't give in his case, if my memory serves correctly, does it make Doughty a bad boy ? One thing for sure, even if the rule is respected. Subban gave Habs almost 2 full season well under his worth. There's also a real possibility of distrust relationship. Remember, MB didn't give anything (almost), it was really take it or leave it. So this contract will have no discount and Subban agent probably will maximize it to get back the 'lost' in previous contract. To think that Subban and mostly his agent won't take ALL they can get is illogic. Negotiations will probably be difficult and again may result in colder relationship. To think that it's no problem, it's strictly business is also very naive, in my opinion, those guys have huge ego. That's why they reach the tops in theirs professions. Is it necessary all this ? Why other organization seem to sign theirs stars players quite smoothly with, lot of time, hometown discount ?

Two things wrong here...1 - pure speculation on what Subban feels. 2-Not the first GM to do it - BTW you can easily argue that Price is just as important if not more than Subban and he got a bridge contract and re-signed after.

The fact that the contract is not signed and MB made this declaration is not a sign of great process but then it's not necessary bad neither.

And we have another distraction within 2 years. Subban does not need another potential 'controversy'

Again speculation, useless conjecture before the contractual situation is resolved.

2-Pumped Subban feels he needs to prove his worth and played to a Norris winner. This is a correlation that can never be proven. How could you prove this ? If this is a winning strategy, all GMs will apply it to make winners in every position. Kadri has a bridge contract and cannot replicate his last year. There's so many things going into a season and it's a team sport so individual stats are not 100% under player control. I would say A LOT less actually. Do you think Kadri puts less effort ? Was he not pumped ? Or simply because he overachieved last year in a shortened season ? In his case the GM may be correct in doubting his worth ? So the bridge contract serves better as a challenge or a validation ? I would say it is a lot more reliable as a validation. Because you want to avoid exception then create exception (as in challenge case).

I think if you review the young players that have signed long term deal coming out of ELC's, you get a mixed bag of results. Every situation might be different, there are no rights or wrong - only results. Subban has flourished in the last two years and his contractual situation is irrelevant. It is only relevant to those who have an ax to grind with MB. We have speculated ad nauseum on how this could become advantageous to the Habs but until the contract is signed it's meaningless.

If you still think that the bridge contract serves well as a challenge to Subban then don't sign him to a big contract because if you think this guy needs a goal to play at this level then he will regress to bananas level once the fat contract is signed. Human nature, no ?

Is this player has past or presence symptoms of needing motivation to get to the next level ?

MT. Remember MT declaration 'makes Subban a better person'.

This has nothing to do with hockey and this is utter bs. Someone refers that to your son, how do you feel ? Not an insult ? Makes something out of nothing ? This is the case of a coach who hasn't known the player personally yet then already has a pretty bad perception on him. Maybe he hears things or saw things but, at least, knows the player first before saying this stuffs.

This is just poor reasoning skills or shows you don't have a clear understanding of contract management in the NHL. The bridge allows the Habs to get 2 years more info and then try to sign him to a 7 or 8 year deal - best case scenario. If it works it's a home run. If the strategy fails then there will be valid concerns but that would not have been eliviated by signing him to a 5 year contract two years ago.The deal would of expired just as PK got to UFA status and the naysayers would of questioned that strategy.

I will give credit to MT here on the team records. I believe his coaching will bring in more wins but also hinder players development if it makes sense because it will discourage players 'creativities' or 'emotional plays' in the sense that he will go 'public' to teach the player a lesson. Galchenyuk, Subban come as high profile players who got quite a few public 'punishment'. Does it work ? I don't know. Maybe, maybe not, it it does why it still happens ? Is it because players are stubborn and don't listen to coach or in the high speed action, they simply committed a mistake like thousands of them before and after during a season in the league ?

Again this is highly debatable MT coaching style in correlation to Subban as a Norris winner and Team Canada selection. How do you prove that ? Some will say Subban is now a more well rounded D, some will say that he lost his offensive flair. Will he be better or worse with another coach ? How many players in this league are the results of 'coaching' instead of hard work and talent ?

I think most can agree that Subban has already shown before the new regime his ability to motivate himself and gets to the next level. Look, he's a second rounder with a lot of 'experts' questions on his defensive game. A few years later he wins the Norris in a position where it usually takes more time to mature.

Subban will improve with or without MT is a given to me. MT certainly corrected a few of his lacunes but any other coach would have done the same. It's not like Subban was so flawed that MT was the one who brought him back to the right path.

By this logic, Subban probably won't win Norris this year. Is it MT fault ? Of course not, so why he wins it, it's on the coach ?

Now, MT coaching style is a great 'strategy' ? Did he improve since his first time in Mtl or Pitts ? I see maybe less incidental declarations but looks the same. I raised a question previously in this thread. Do you believe MT in the NHL right now if it's not for Habs special requirement. We will never know but he wasn't even close to get a job before this one (if memory is correct). I won't say it means that he's horrendous but it certainly a sign of pretty ordinary reviews in GMs eyes.

This is not hard facts proofs but at least I can point out the reasons why I think MT and MB are full of themselves when demand recognition to Subban success.

One last thing. Usually, as professional, you don't take recognition yourself. Your good work will be judged accordingly by whoever in charge or with knowledges. Why the hell you need to publicly remind it ? Is it because you are afraid that others can't see it ? It's possible that they can't see it because it's not really there.

For Christ sake, Subban last year and this year, in the player age bracket should be those years when players learned the most.

MB and MT believe they made Subban the player he is. Subban politely answered he doesn't need anyone else to motivate him but thank them for improving the team. Who strike you as cocky and not team player here ?

Now to anyone who still goes with short declaration without any arguments whatsoever to point out my flawed logic and to present theirs and maybe credits will be given. What are MB and MT so important roles in Subban development as a player?

Honestly - keep your posts shorter of you want people to respond - I lost patience trying to respond to your flow of consciousness. In a nutshell, it's a bit of both.

People only seem to rate Subban on his technical skills - which are off the chart. I constantly see flaws in his game, whether it's forcing a pass or taking useless risks, or game management....learning when to do less for the good of the team.

I think MT and MB want PK to mature, not as a hockey player, but as an elite superstar.

 

[CaptainBenn]

Wasnt he "close to sign a deal" a few weeks ago according to some "insiders" ?

 

[Kriss E]

Two things wrong here...1 - pure speculation on what Subban feels. 2-Not the first GM to do it - BTW you can easily argue that Price is just as important if not more than Subban and he got a bridge contract and re-signed after.

He's listing the type of directions the effect of the previous negotiations could be, so it's normal that it's speculative.
And no, nobody has signed PK to a bridge deal. The fact Giroux (or whoever else) got one in Chicago is completely irrelevant as he is not PK.
Price came out of his ELC at the end of the season where he lost his starting job to Halak, he won a whopping 13 games that year. He had never started in 50 games yet. It made no sense to lock him up to a long term contract. That's why there never was a debate on it, and it certainly not due to a lack of Price fan boys.

I think if you review the young players that have signed long term deal coming out of ELC's, you get a mixed bag of results. Every situation might be different, there are no rights or wrong - only results. Subban has flourished in the last two years and his contractual situation is irrelevant. It is only relevant to those who have an ax to grind with MB. We have speculated ad nauseum on how this could become advantageous to the Habs but until the contract is signed it's meaningless.

And yet you brought up Price.

Subban has been flourishing since his rookie year. The progress he's had since juniors year after year has been incredible. It's as if he improves 2 years in one. It's been like that for a while now. So either he's had some serious luck by having the best coaches to ever lived one after the other that took him to new levels every year, or maybe, just maybe, the kid is just seriously awesome.
PK was amazing as a rookie here, I don't recall anybody pumping Martin's tires.
I have never heard fans try to credit a coach so much for the development of a player that was already very solid before the hiring of said coach.

Nobody has an ax to grind with MB. He's made mistakes, there's nothing wrong with saying that.

This is just poor reasoning skills or shows you don't have a clear understanding of contract management in the NHL. The bridge allows the Habs to get 2 years more info and then try to sign him to a 7 or 8 year deal - best case scenario. If it works it's a home run. If the strategy fails then there will be valid concerns but that would not have been eliviated by signing him to a 5 year contract two years ago.The deal would of expired just as PK got to UFA status and the naysayers would of questioned that strategy.

It's time to throw this idea out of the park. Bergevin himself said he wanted to see more things from PK when he was hired. If that wasn't enough of a clue, a couple of days ago, he says ''when I got here, PK was a healthy scratch. Now he has a Norris and Team Canada''. So it's pretty clear that he just wasn't sold on PK. That, and that alone, is the reason for why PK got a low bridge deal.

And ya, it was rumored PK wanted a 5 year deal around 5M. What if, as a GM, you negotiated down to 4 years?? Wouldn't that have worked?? You got your best young player signed for 4years at a relative cheap deal, and you don't have to worry about UFA status.

Stop clinging onto this idea that Bergevin did this in order to get PK here for longer. It's such a ridiculous idea. He signed him to this contract because he wasn't sold on him. That's it.

Honestly - keep your posts shorter of you want people to respond - I lost patience trying to respond to your flow of consciousness. In a nutshell, it's a bit of both.

People only seem to rate Subban on his technical skills - which are off the chart. I constantly see flaws in his game, whether it's forcing a pass or taking useless risks, or game management....learning when to do less for the good of the team.

I think MT and MB want PK to mature, not as a hockey player, but as an elite superstar.

I think MT and MB are trying a little too hard. They did not turn PK from a healthy scratch struggling player to a Norris winner in 40ish games, which is pretty much what Bergevin said. PK was already a great player, and he would have won the Norris with Martin still here, or with any other coach.
This year, because of the way he was being used by his coach, people were actually saying that the Norris winner could very well not make team Canada. You realize this?
Norris winner=No team Canada? How unbelievable is that??

PK is young, and will always take risks. I don't want him to change his game, it's what makes him so good. More often than not, these risks end up paying, but you're likely to busy focusing on his mistakes to notice it.
You can't coach someone to have better timing. This is something you develop with time through experience. But from the attitude Bergevin and Therrien have shown these past couple of days, they will likely take the credit for it.

 

[vfactor]

Two things wrong here...1 - pure speculation on what Subban feels. 2-Not the first GM to do it - BTW you can easily argue that Price is just as important if not more than Subban and he got a bridge contract and re-signed after.

It's exactly what I said, we will never know but as possible consequences. Argument for the sake of we will never know then we don't have an argument. I was debating on MB role on Subban development. The bridge contract seems to be used as an argument. I was pointing out that it has either no effect or at worse very bad taste. Subban was not happy but he took it. It's ok. All those events may not harm his development at all but where you can see it helps ? The sad thing is after he did what he had to do (not talk), MB came back and basically said: well he was nothing before we came here, we made him what he is. You seriously think this is correct ? You seriously think that's the way a leader should lead ?

Again speculation, useless conjecture before the contractual situation is resolved.

I have no doubt he will resign too. The point was, I repeat, MB, until this point did nothing we can identify as positif to Subban development the last 2 years. And once more, his declaration are way off base during this contract negotiation. Subban should not be in 'controversy' headlines. What MB did to me is a public negotiation tactic which will 'prepare' the average fans when Subban demand became public. People will remember that Subban had 1,5 good season because of management and now thought too much of himself, an 'out of touch' athlete. Talk to average fan, you will be surprise on how they are purely media extension with no analytic sense whatsoever. Again, this is my opinion as you will say it's speculation but then I see it as it so my interpretation is MB (leader of Habs management) does not negotiate with his player on a fair and honest base.

I think if you review the young players that have signed long term deal coming out of ELC's, you get a mixed bag of results. Every situation might be different, there are no rights or wrong - only results. Subban has flourished in the last two years and his contractual situation is irrelevant. It is only relevant to those who have an ax to grind with MB. We have speculated ad nauseum on how this could become advantageous to the Habs but until the contract is signed it's meaningless.

Bravo, you just said it yourself. I have no axe with the last 2 years contract as I said it. I have problem when management continually shot down Subban on public place even though the guy absolutely did everything as a professional. I have problem when management think too much of themselves. I have problem when leaders don't act as leaders. First to take credit and first to point fingers. Subban was right or not demanding something more than the bridge deal last year is up to you. I think he was within reasonable right. It didn't go his way and he accepted it.

So to recapitulate so we have the same argument. Nobody can say for sure MB did something 'bad' to Subban development the last 2 years. It does not have any positive I can identify off. It could (speculation) have some negative within reasonable doubts but we can't know until it happens (if it happens).

You can say that MB did was something he did for the scenario you list below for the Habs. But it doesn't favor Subban as the player at the moment of the signature. Players always prefer security. He will make lot of money now but what happens if he had a career threatening injury ? So at the signature, MB DIDN'T DO **** for Subban. Right or Wrong ?

So what great 'management' MB did to make Subban as Subban today ? He seems to take credit and you and some think he deserves it. Tell me where it is ?

Ok so he did it for the club. Until the contract is signed, you can't tell if the bridge contract worked out AS EXPECTED. Even then, it helps Habs, not Subban. Remember we talk about MB takes credit for Subban the Norris winner and TC selection.

This is just poor reasoning skills or shows you don't have a clear understanding of contract management in the NHL. The bridge allows the Habs to get 2 years more info and then try to sign him to a 7 or 8 year deal - best case scenario. If it works it's a home run. If the strategy fails then there will be valid concerns but that would not have been eliviated by signing him to a 5 year contract two years ago.The deal would of expired just as PK got to UFA status and the naysayers would of questioned that strategy.

Again, read my post again, the bridge contract may have it merit but it DOES NOT help Subban the player. He didn't have a choice to accept it. He was not happy. But he is certainly mature enough to deal with it with great attitude.

What reasoning skill you talk about here ? I don't attack the bridge contract as it. I pointed out that CAN NOT be used as a plus from the 'management' to Subban the player. At best, it does nothing, at worse it leaves a bad taste in Subban mouth. Of course, he WILL NEVER say it. If it was easy to accept, he would not have missed first few games.

Even your argument on 'best case scenario' has flaws since right now speculation is that Subban side wants shorter to have another Jackpot down the road. And with how the negotiation went last time, can we agree that Subban side will use every leverage if they could to obtain what's best for them ? You will probably say that'll be the case anyways since it's business but we don't know, plenty of cases around the league where players gave some back to the club because they think they are well treated. So can we 'speculate' within reasonable doubt that this contract has potentially more 'trouble' ?

Honestly - keep your posts shorter of you want people to respond - I lost patience trying to respond to your flow of consciousness. In a nutshell, it's a bit of both.

People only seem to rate Subban on his technical skills - which are off the chart. I constantly see flaws in his game, whether it's forcing a pass or taking useless risks, or game management....learning when to do less for the good of the team.

I think MT and MB want PK to mature, not as a hockey player, but as an elite superstar.

I try, I really try but I still have to present my thoughts with enough coherent. You don't seem to present any thoughts from your own except that 'only speculation' on top of everything. Of course it's speculation, this is a forum and you and me are average Joe who has access to very limited information. We choose how to interpret it and have some stuffs to support it.

The only argument you present with triumphant attitude has nothing to do with the facts I presented in what you consider poor reasoning skill. If you could only stick to the subject on what MB took credit for and present an opinion even if it's based on interpretation or speculation.

MT was fired from Pitts because, base on speculation, he 'coached' with that same tactic or attitude. The player mostly talked was Fleury. Crosby, Malkin or to some degree, Letang certainly are MT products ? It's funny because Fleury is probably the player with the less 'star' status in that group. He's having a good season but is not 'elite' since...ever. Was there any remotely proof that MT knows how to coach superstar players to 'elite' stars ?

It's very easy when you are in position to criticize others. MT has matured as a coach? Did he simply improve ? Now what he showed to convince me that he knows how to handle this ? Fleury ? Or Crosby or Malkin ?

And by the way, what's the elite superstar maturity ? Give me an example. Chara ? He's superstar, long enough in this league to be mature I guess. Well did you see him lose his mind and took idiot penalties when playing the Habs ? Crosby ? Too exceptionnal. Malkin ? isn't he a very dirty player ? didn't change. Is he elite superstar? How about Ovi with his half rink play ? It's so great to throw out cliche. Maturity, elite, team player... Now try to point out where Subban seriously lack vs other 'elite' in this league ? Subban is as close as possible to elite from a D standpoint.

Look, Subban is a great player, we made him. If he was bad is simply because he's not as good as thought, that's why we gave a bridge deal. In any case, we're great. Not bad eh as plan eh ?

In this whole story, there's one side with lot of talks and credit taking and making the other side look bad. I let you guess which one. One hint, Subban didn't say ****.

 

[Habnot]

PK is young, and will always take risks. I don't want him to change his game, it's what makes him so good. More often than not, these risks end up paying, but you're likely to busy focusing on his mistakes to notice it.
You can't coach someone to have better timing. This is something you develop with time through experience. But from the attitude Bergevin and Therrien have shown these past couple of days, they will likely take the credit for it.

That's were we differ, I want PK to improve his game. I'm a big Subban fan but not myopic enough not to see the areas where his game needs improving. He's been in the league for 4 years, it's time for his game to mature to the next level. BTW - that's not me that says it, but mostly be those that make a living in the NHL. Of course there's a big conspiracy against all that's PK - he doesn't deserve any of it.

And please this is the quote from Bergevin

Price et son coéquipier P.K. Subban ont tous deux été sélectionnés mardi au sein d’Équipe Canada en vue des Jeux de Sotchi, s’ajoutant à la liste de six autres membres du Canadien qui représenteront leur pays en Russie. Bien qu’il se soit abstenu de commenter le statut des négociations contractuelles avec son jeune défenseur, Bergevin ne s’est pas gêné pour encenser le pilier de sa défensive.

« Il y a deux ans, il lui arrivait d’être envoyé sur la passerelle. Sa progression a été immense, et ce n’est pas terminé. »

He's not taking credit - just stated that his game has progressed. "Encenser" means to flatter - he's giving credit to PK for progressing. Sorry but that's a big fail.

 

[habsfanatics*]

It's exactly what I said, we will never know but as possible consequences. Argument for the sake of we will never know then we don't have an argument. I was debating on MB role on Subban development. The bridge contract seems to be used as an argument. I was pointing out that it has either no effect or at worse very bad taste. Subban was not happy but he took it. It's ok. All those events may not harm his development at all but where you can see it helps ? The sad thing is after he did what he had to do (not talk), MB came back and basically said: well he was nothing before we came here, we made him what he is. You seriously think this is correct ? You seriously think that's the way a leader should lead ?



I have no doubt he will resign too. The point was, I repeat, MB, until this point did nothing we can identify as positif to Subban development the last 2 years. And once more, his declaration are way off base during this contract negotiation. Subban should not be in 'controversy' headlines. What MB did to me is a public negotiation tactic which will 'prepare' the average fans when Subban demand became public. People will remember that Subban had 1,5 good season because of management and now thought too much of himself, an 'out of touch' athlete. Talk to average fan, you will be surprise on how they are purely media extension with no analytic sense whatsoever. Again, this is my opinion as you will say it's speculation but then I see it as it so my interpretation is MB (leader of Habs management) does not negotiate with his player on a fair and honest base.



Bravo, you just said it yourself. I have no axe with the last 2 years contract as I said it. I have problem when management continually shot down Subban on public place even though the guy absolutely did everything as a professional. I have problem when management think too much of themselves. I have problem when leaders don't act as leaders. First to take credit and first to point fingers. Subban was right or not demanding something more than the bridge deal last year is up to you. I think he was within reasonable right. It didn't go his way and he accepted it.

So to recapitulate so we have the same argument. Nobody can say for sure MB did something 'bad' to Subban development the last 2 years. It does not have any positive I can identify off. It could (speculation) have some negative within reasonable doubts but we can't know until it happens (if it happens).

You can say that MB did was something he did for the scenario you list below for the Habs. But it doesn't favor Subban as the player at the moment of the signature. Players always prefer security. He will make lot of money now but what happens if he had a career threatening injury ? So at the signature, MB DIDN'T DO **** for Subban. Right or Wrong ?

So what great 'management' MB did to make Subban as Subban today ? He seems to take credit and you and some think he deserves it. Tell me where it is ?

Ok so he did it for the club. Until the contract is signed, you can't tell if the bridge contract worked out AS EXPECTED. Even then, it helps Habs, not Subban. Remember we talk about MB takes credit for Subban the Norris winner and TC selection.



Again, read my post again, the bridge contract may have it merit but it DOES NOT help Subban the player. He didn't have a choice to accept it. He was not happy. But he is certainly mature enough to deal with it with great attitude.

What reasoning skill you talk about here ? I don't attack the bridge contract as it. I pointed out that CAN NOT be used as a plus from the 'management' to Subban the player. At best, it does nothing, at worse it leaves a bad taste in Subban mouth. Of course, he WILL NEVER say it. If it was easy to accept, he would not have missed first few games.

Even your argument on 'best case scenario' has flaws since right now speculation is that Subban side wants shorter to have another Jackpot down the road. And with how the negotiation went last time, can we agree that Subban side will use every leverage if they could to obtain what's best for them ? You will probably say that'll be the case anyways since it's business but we don't know, plenty of cases around the league where players gave some back to the club because they think they are well treated. So can we 'speculate' within reasonable doubt that this contract has potentially more 'trouble' ?



I try, I really try but I still have to present my thoughts with enough coherent. You don't seem to present any thoughts from your own except that 'only speculation' on top of everything. Of course it's speculation, this is a forum and you and me are average Joe who has access to very limited information. We choose how to interpret it and have some stuffs to support it.

The only argument you present with triumphant attitude has nothing to do with the facts I presented in what you consider poor reasoning skill. If you could only stick to the subject on what MB took credit for and present an opinion even if it's based on interpretation or speculation.

MT was fired from Pitts because, base on speculation, he 'coached' with that same tactic or attitude. The player mostly talked was Fleury. Crosby, Malkin or to some degree, Letang certainly are MT products ? It's funny because Fleury is probably the player with the less 'star' status in that group. He's having a good season but is not 'elite' since...ever. Was there any remotely proof that MT knows how to coach superstar players to 'elite' stars ?

It's very easy when you are in position to criticize others. MT has matured as a coach? Did he simply improve ? Now what he showed to convince me that he knows how to handle this ? Fleury ? Or Crosby or Malkin ?

And by the way, what's the elite superstar maturity ? Give me an example. Chara ? He's superstar, long enough in this league to be mature I guess. Well did you see him lose his mind and took idiot penalties when playing the Habs ? Crosby ? Too exceptionnal. Malkin ? isn't he a very dirty player ? didn't change. Is he elite superstar? How about Ovi with his half rink play ? It's so great to throw out cliche. Maturity, elite, team player... Now try to point out where Subban seriously lack vs other 'elite' in this league ? Subban is as close as possible to elite from a D standpoint.

Look, Subban is a great player, we made him. If he was bad is simply because he's not as good as thought, that's why we gave a bridge deal. In any case, we're great. Not bad eh as plan eh ?

In this whole story, there's one side with lot of talks and credit taking and making the other side look bad. I let you guess which one. One hint, Subban didn't say ****.

I don't really know you, but keep on posting the way you are posting. You are quickly becoming one of my favorites to read. Nothing over the top and a well- thought out post, each and every time.

Your posts remind me a lot of whitesnake. Another favorite of mine. Don't change a thing.

 

[Habsawce]

Someone needs to photoshop Subban onto the cover of that movie "Blank Check" from the late 90's and send it to the Habs twitter to help with negotiations.

 

[Brainiac]

Someone needs to photoshop Subban onto the cover of that movie "Blank Check" from the late 90's and send it to the Habs twitter to help with negotiations.

And change 'Home Alone' with 'Bridge Deal'?

But, yeah, those of you with a twitter, just flood Molson with Subban related stuff.

 

[DAChampion]

vfactor,

please keep up the excellent posts !!

 

[Habsawce]

And change 'Home Alone' with 'Bridge Deal'?

But, yeah, those of you with a twitter, just flood Molson with Subban related stuff.

That's actually a brilliant idea. With the deal with it glasses on this kid and everything. Could be a golden photoshop.

Blouw, MiG ... anyone?!

 

[Kriss E]

That's were we differ, I want PK to improve his game. I'm a big Subban fan but not myopic enough not to see the areas where his game needs improving. He's been in the league for 4 years, it's time for his game to mature to the next level. BTW - that's not me that says it, but mostly be those that make a living in the NHL. Of course there's a big conspiracy against all that's PK - he doesn't deserve any of it.

And please this is the quote from Bergevin

Price et son coéquipier P.K. Subban ont tous deux été sélectionnés mardi au sein d’Équipe Canada en vue des Jeux de Sotchi, s’ajoutant à la liste de six autres membres du Canadien qui représenteront leur pays en Russie. Bien qu’il se soit abstenu de commenter le statut des négociations contractuelles avec son jeune défenseur, Bergevin ne s’est pas gêné pour encenser le pilier de sa défensive.

« Il y a deux ans, il lui arrivait d’être envoyé sur la passerelle. Sa progression a été immense, et ce n’est pas terminé. »

He's not taking credit - just stated that his game has progressed. "Encenser" means to flatter - he's giving credit to PK for progressing. Sorry but that's a big fail.

Nobody has ever said PK is perfect and has nothing to improve on. But flaws are not fixed over night. It's time for him to mature to the next level? He earned a Norris in his 3rd year buddy. He will keep improving as he gets older and earns more experience.

 

[vfactor]

I don't really know you, but keep on posting the way you are posting. You are quickly becoming one of my favorites to read. Nothing over the top and a well- thought out post, each and every time.

Your posts remind me a lot of whitesnake. Another favorite of mine. Don't change a thing.

vfactor,

please keep up the excellent posts !!

Thank you thank you for the Oscar nominee No kidding aside, I read this board religiously and enjoy quality posts. This is like my window to 'external world' from my daily job. I am a fan and enjoy fan base discussion. Most of the time, I refrain from posting because the subjects are already discussed in different parts of the thread and usually the 'two' sides will not concede their POVs. It's perfectly legal even though I know 'my side' is right

There's a reason why Subban case got me involved lot more. First, I am Subban because he is the Habs player who brought me the most entertainment value in this rather boring hockey team. He strikes me as a real deal, the player you will proudly talk about as a Habs fan around the league, the one who will give you countless memories of his goals, drive, flashes on the ice, the total package of talent, drive and character . He also, until now, shows me a lot of maturity and class as a person, employee, player with much respect to his organization. The sweater incident on the floor was something he surely regretted and learned from, I bet. As a fan, I want Subban to thrive and be happy in a #76 Habs Jersey for the rest of his career. I have high hope in him for years to come. He's the first 'special' player I witness from the draft from this team on my time as 'serious' fan. Probably a generational player within this club. Carey Price and Galchenyuk are probably other reasonable candidates but don't have higher ceiling than Subban.

Subban did come into the league with a lot of enthusiasm and energy which were in some cases not 'used' properly or sometimes not 'conformed' to this rather weird 'old school' mentality. He certainly made mistakes and was raw. However, he showed how much he cared and became instantly one of the most important player in this club. He also took a lot of criticism which are, most of the time, from my point of view, way exaggerated simply because he's not 'old school'.

He was certainly a 'special' case to his coach but again, he was never the 'head case' or selfish player he seems to be labeled with. Unfortunately, he doesn't seem to have that 'love' from his teammates neither. I can't tell the reason, I am not in the locker room but I feels it has to to with the fact that he draw too much attention to him whether it's his fault or not. Also, he probably irritates the 'old school' players with his style not because it's something bad, it's simply the case of that 'different' kid in a rather 'uniform' world. I am not talking about racism here, more from a personality stand. However Subban doesn't hold that grudge. I will present a case which truly made me raise my level of respect to this special player.

Remember when he entered the league ? Markov was hurt and there was debate on Subban taking the #1 role. There were, in my observation at that time, certain form of dislike from Markov toward Subban. I remember that TV report with Subban answering question in locker room. Markov entered and in front of TV reminds Subban of 'his space'. It was a rather 'big brother' gesture from Markov (who I love as a player) and I am sure Subban knew it was 100% intentional. Fast forward, the first goal from Subban with Markov presence on ice, I remembered the 'general' reaction was pretty 'meh'. I won't say it's anything related to 'jealousy' or 'hate', it's more in a form of a player who's not best friend to the other. Fast forward to the day Subban dropped the glove to defend Markov also the 'huge excitation' on Markov face and reaction whenever Subban scores now. Subban has won the 'general' appreciation over. All this are my timeline memories. It may be correct or pure illusion. What happens behind the scene is something we'll never know but in my interpretation, Subban is someone you will truly appreciate if given a chance. Subban is undisputed #1 now, but he did not overthrow Markov by anything than his pure hard work with much respect to the previous leader. Subban certainly had quarrels with Plekanec and...maybe Georges but well, when you have personality and you stand by it, some will like you, some won't. Does it make one right, others wrong? Certainly not, personality is keyword here and God knows we need it in this politically correct world. To be honest, Georges irritates the hell out of me but I convinced myself that it's my bias because I am a Subban supporter.

Subban progress as a player was something wonderful to witness. He's our Crosby in term of sure thing each season. He's one of a few with always higher ceiling than previously thought. Then come our new management which I thought is a fresh air to this country club. I was hoping it's the new 'wave' of management which will bring something new, innovate to the 'management' side of thing. We are in 2013 and as much as I like to repeat this, I hate the 'old school' label because it is abused in this world to the point of whoever 'projects' or 'embraces' it gives me chill of expected incompetence. Since the first day, Subban case was on display and I will say that cumulate events do not reassure me that this management is particularly good at handling the situation. It's constantly on the headlines for unnecessary reasons. We are in Montreal, of course, but I certainly feel that Habs brass created a versus relationship instead of the with relationship in a team concept as they preach. I will go as far as saying Habs management use the media to their advantages. I told myself that Subban is not perfect and I may be blinded by my support for him but I haven't found anything to support the opposite side. It's disturbing that his Norris win and Olympic selection are mostly talked about in 'controversial' stories rather than an inspirational story for this organization who had the last real icon in Patrick Roy. Crazy enough, Roy himself just 'came' home recently. Well in that centennial ceremony briefly.

When Cantin, a Quebecois journalist, wrote an article questioning Michel Therrien, it's alarming because it became way too obvious over time. Yes journalists look for sensationalism but you will hardly find a criticism that 'hard' from a Quebecois to another Quebecois especially the latter is having 'success' on paper. Look at Desharnais case, how he is 'supported' from french medias. Michel Therrien is on an even an easier level of God raise status. This is not a franco, anglo thing. It's an indication that things are not 'nothing' as we want to believe.

Finally, the management vs Subban is something I see daily in my field of work. I am a software developer consultant and over the years I worked for different teams in different environments and organizations. Great managers are hard, very hard to come by. Leaders are so rare, you see most of the time 'old school' managers who will got to that level not because of their leadership or technical competence but rather by circumstances, politic, know who, power hungry or simply money (salary). They are typically 'best friends' in sunny days and 'superiors' in rainy days. When things go right, it's 'team work' provided by great management. When there's a problem, they will find out a scapegoat and point finger. Those are the worsts to deal with, they won't provide you support but rather suck the hell out of your time and energy to do theirs on behalf of the team of course and if you dare to question their 'authority' or 'decision making' (they encourage you to do so) you will eventually be theirs problems. Even on the frank eyes to eyes debates, they will lose to you because they have nothing to support theirs lies, arguments or perception, they will win because of their position of force. They want respect but they usually don't want to work for it. They want you to give it to them willingly because of their position.

Of course, Subban is an exceptional 'worker' and he has way more leverage than a normal team member. I just see a so much similarities in this particular case. In our society, we are taught to behave and respect orders, hierarchy, organisation without a lot of questioning. It's a necessary base for a functional system. However, this notion is abused, used and forced by a lot of folks to simply control the mass and achieve theirs goals. I am sure you can see it in everyday, in any domain if you open your eyes a little.

I am not condemning MB or MT. It's way too overblown otherwise. My point is that, MB and MT will not gain any respect from a fan like me simply because they represent 'management' or 'authority'. They will have to show competence, class and leadership to this organisation on the same level if not more than the players. At the end of the day, they are supposed to be on the same team.

God, way too long. Sorry for my Subban case in depth explanation. Thank you for reading if you made this far.

Have a great week !

 

[Habsterix*]

What I'm reading here is that on the one side, you have the emotional fans who think that PK is or should be pissed off at the organization, the coach or whoever, who feel like he was low balled. They are considered, in the four types of personalities, as the Driver/Emotional.

And on the other side, you have those who base their opinion on a business-like approach, supported by quotes from the parties involved, trying not to read too much on the emotional aspect of the negotiations. They are also Drivers, but add the Analytical.

There is no way those two sides will ever meet in the middle for the simple reason that they share the Driver personality type and none wants to be proven wrong, or at least admit it.

Learn more about personality types...

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

So uh... is this guy signed yet or what?

 

[Smokey Thompson]

So uh... is this guy signed yet or what?

Pietrangelo wasn't signed until the end of summer. It'll be a long process.

 

[DAChampion]

So uh... is this guy signed yet or what?

We might have a lot to discuss this summer. On the one hand many will argue that Subban should be locked up long term. On the other, certain posters will be praising Bergevin for hatdballing Subban.

 

[WhiskeySeven*]

Pietrangelo wasn't signed until the end of summer. It'll be a long process.

It would be a lot ****ing shorter if he got his 25m/5yr contract like he wanted.

 

[JayKing]

It would be a lot ****ing shorter if he got his 25m/5yr contract like he wanted.

Didn't he want 6+ years?

 

[WhiskeySeven*]

Didn't he want 6+ years?

By all accounts, Bobby Mac and all, he was looking for a fair "2nd contract" which was around 5m and around 5years. But Bergevin shoved a bridge deal down his throat and instead of holding out the season (like he ought to have, truth be told) he swallowed his pride and signed it.

Now it's his turn to make bank and they haven't signed him yet but almost every other legitimate organization extends their players July 2nd. Not us. Not this gong show.

 

[DAChampion]

Whiskey,

Bergevin knows that Subban only won the Norris and made the olympics because of Therrien. Given that coaches don't last forever, it would be too risky for the team to commit to Subban, we don't know if he is actually a good player or just benefiting from Therrien's coaching, he might really be a Del Zotto type player.

4 years, 14 million should be fair. Same situation as Desharnais, same salary. We need to set an organizational standard.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Whiskey,

Bergevin knows that Subban only won the Norris and made the olympics because of Therrien. Given that coaches don't last forever, it would be too risky for the team to commit to Subban, we don't know if he is actually a good player or just benefiting from Therrien's coaching, he might really be a Del Zotto type player.

4 years, 14 million should be fair. Same situation as Desharnais, same salary. We need to set an organizational standard.

Still can't believe that Therrien isn't on the Team Canada coaching roster. He's the only reason that guys like Crosby and Subban are on that roster at all.