Starting A Franchise: Matthews+Marner VS McDavid

[Nick Hansen]

If Matthews was in Arizona nobody would give a shit.

 

[Sojourn]

McDavid is definitely better than Matthews and Marner, but the difference isn't big enough for me to take him over both of them. Depth is what (usually) wins championships. McDavid would have to be scoring at least 130 points every year for me to take him over two guys who will likely be consistent 90-100 point players.

How many consistent 90-100 point players can you name in the last decade?

Maybe take a look at that list before you label Marner and Matthews as likely 90-100 point players.
Possible, yes. Likely, no. It’s an important distinction here.

 

[Peggy]

There is not a situation in which I don’t want McDavid over anyone in the league up front.

I'll take two scheifele's just because contracts
But these are two top draft picks so I'm sure they'll end up costing more than McDavid

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Perhaps not as far off as some people make it out to be, but the gap is certainly bigger than some Toronto fans are suggesting.

That middle ground? Still has McDavid winning the poll. Neither Matthews or Marner has done enough to justify them over McDavid. Not when you factor in salaries, future opportunity to add talent, and so on. It isn’t just McDavid vs. Matthews and Marner. That’s just where you’re starting, and we’ve seen what a team like Pittsburgh can do building around the best player in the world. You don’t just stop building.

but I think as Edmonton is showing, it is possible to have the best player in the world (on his ELC no less), and still fail to build a competitive team around him. Building around two high end building blocks isn't foolproof either, but it does get easier. McDavid isn't the slam dunk centerpiece he's made out to be, and that's not a slight against him. he's as good as advertised. it's just not the nature of the sport that you can build around one player like that without fail

 

[Sojourn]

but I think as Edmonton is showing, it is possible to have the best player in the world (on his ELC no less), and still fail to build a competitive team around him. Building around two high end building blocks isn't foolproof either, but it does get easier

Building around one or two assets is never going to be a sure thing immediately. This is a long-term question. Toronto is the better team right now, but it certainly isn’t because they have Matthews and Marner instead of McDavid.

You could have either option, and still fail to be competitive over a ten year span. That would be more a statement about management than these individual players themselves. To me the question is: Which do you think increases your odds to be successful?

I think that’s McDavid. It remains to be seen what Edmonton can do about it. I think Toronto has done a pretty good job, but again, that’s not strictly because they have Marner and Matthews over McDavid. There are a lot of considerations there. This is just asking the question about one of those.

 

[Varan]

McDavid. Always take the generational talent

 

[Cleatus]

How many consistent 90-100 point players can you name in the last decade?

Maybe take a look at that list before you label Marner and Matthews as likely 90-100 point players.
Possible, yes. Likely, no. It’s an important distinction here.

Okay fine, both have already peaked and will only be 70-80 point players for their careers.

I still take two of those over a single 100-110 point guy.

 

[Sojourn]

Okay fine, both have already peaked and will only be 70-80 point players for their careers.

I still take two of those over a single 100-110 point guy.

Neither one of them are 80-point players right now, so how is that peaking?

Furthermore, I want to emphasize a word you said here: consistent.

I say again, look at the list of consistent 90-100 point players in the last decade. Then tell me how likely it is that they accomplish that. You aren’t saying that they could hit those numbers. You’re saying that they will hit those numbers regularly. That’s two very different things. So, go make that list. Then ask yourself if it’s really likely that both of them accomplish that feat. One is doubtful. Two is... well, there is no nice way to put it. Even if scoring stays up the odds are incredibly slim, to the point where saying it’s likely is just blatant homerism.

 

[GodEmperor]

Unless you are proposing that McDavid is going to always play shorthanded your point is almost meaningless. You are talking about starting a franchise here which means you will be building around these players. Every GM in the League would choose McDavid in that scenario.

There is almost zero chance that this scenario would go 31-0 for McDavid, there are 3 that I can think of off the top of my head that would likely instantly take Matthews and Marner.

Beyond that, we have good data for how far an individual generational player can get you and the truth is without a proper team, definitely not winning the cup. Crosby and Malkin struggled together for nearly a decade to win more than one and we see the depths to which Edmonton can sink despite having McDavid and an alright core.

I'm not saying McDavid is a super wrong choice or anything like that, however Matthews' goal scoring, pts/60 and defensive play keep him close enough that getting a potential superstar winger who is nearly top 15 at age 20 would more than make it close.

 

[Cleatus]

Neither one of them are 80-point players right now, so how is that peaking?

Furthermore, I want to emphasize a word you said here: consistent.

I say again, look at the list of consistent 90-100 point players in the last decade. Then tell me how likely it is that they accomplish that. You aren’t saying that they could hit those numbers. You’re saying that they will hit those numbers regularly. That’s two very different things. So, go make that list. Then ask yourself if it’s really likely that both of them accomplish that feat. One is doubtful. Two is... well, there is no nice way to put it. Even if scoring stays up the odds are incredibly slim, to the point where saying it’s likely is just blatant homerism.

Sorry for defying your king, I just feel that Matthews and Marner are going to progress significantly in the next couple of years, and with how stacked the Leafs are at forward, it's not hard to see these two near the top of the league scoring leaders for years to come (if both remain healthy, knock on wood).

 

[Sojourn]

Sorry for defying your king, I just feel that Matthews and Marner are going to progress significantly in the next couple of years, and with how stacked the Leafs are at forward, it's not hard to see these two near the top of the league scoring leaders for years to come (if both remain healthy, knock on wood).

I’m not associated with any of these players.

I’d take McDavid because he’s that much better, to me. He’s a player you dream about building your team around. The same way Pittsburgh was out of their mind with excitement when they took Crosby.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

You get a chance to get a guy who may end up as a generational player then you take it.
Two Art Rosses at McDavids age puts him in very elite company.
A great player in Matthews and a good one in Marner don’t come close to McDavid.

 

[Neutral Hockey Fan]

It has been suggested on this board to do an “entire oilers organization including players, coaches, management, GM, scouts, ect” vs an “entire leafs organization including players, coaches, management, GM, scouts, ect” poll.

I wonder what the results of such a poll would be?

 

[ScaredStreit]

The difference is not that significant, no matter how many times that notion is repeated.

McDavid, Matthews and Eichel are closer than most believe, and are far and away better than anyone in and around their age group.
It's true that McDavid is the obviously better player, but we're talking Crosby-Malkin instead of Crosby-Stamkos in terms of difference.

McDavid scores more assists than Matthews does points. That is a significant difference.

 

[McVespa99]

What an excellent argument for McDavid, so McDavid is better than Matthews, therefore McDavid>>>>>>Matthews+anyone. I guess McDavid>>>>>>Matthews and Crosby too right?

Besides, if this is so clear, just let the poll run it's course.

Or, if you don't like polls about McDavid, DON'T ENTER THEM.

I hope this has helped.

Hope the lopsided result has helped you.
Why don't you go ahead and start a Matthews plus prime Gretzky versus McDavid poll. Then you can finally have the result Leafs fans seem to desperately need.

 

[Soliloquy of a Dogge]

Wouldn't trade McDavid for Matthews and Marner. The gap in talent is too vast.

Easy answer to this one. Don't even have to think about it.

 

[McYoungGuns]

What really confuses me is this:

McDavid is the indisputed best player in the league.
Draisaitl is supposedly a top notch #1 centre that is either employed alongside McDavid or as their 2nd line centre, thus making the team more balanced and harder to match up against.
RNH was drafted #1 overall and is a damn good #2 centre who is usually put in the #3 hole. This also adds to balance and makes it harder to match up against.
The defense is miles better than Toronto's. That's not debatable as Nurse, Klefbom and Larsson are better than Rielly, Gardiner and whatever it was that played in Zaitzev's body suit last year.
Talbot was supposedly a Vezina caliber goalie.

The Leafs ended the season with 105 points while the Oilers ended up with 78 points.

Marner, the player who is laughed at here in this poll led the Leafs in scoring. They didn't have another magical unicorn of a player who scored 100+ and drove this team to 105 points.
In fact, Marner and Matthews had to share in a role on the team. They were definitely it's main engines, but they were not given the offensive freedom and opportunity to maximize their potential last season or the one beforehand.

We've seen that before in teams coached by Babcock. Where superstars had their roles limited in favor of team accomplishments. Does that mean that they're lesser players than the ones who led those tournaments in scoring? No. When given the same offensive roles and freedoms, they're equal if not superior.

my friend ... the oilers have won a series ... Leafs haven't won a single series since the cap was introduced.... seriously I wouldn't talk till your superstar team has at least one series win.........

 

[Soliloquy of a Dogge]

No they aren't

One of them has scored at least100 points twice with 2 art ross trophies and has gone at least ppg in all seasons played
The others haven't even scored 70 points
Your math is off by a lot

Exactly.

The notion that there isn't a massive gap is the stuff of delusion. No matter how many P/60 and "pace" arguments are thrown out, that gap isn't getting any narrower. The assumption that McDavid is finished improving is an ignorant one too.

 

[pcruz]

McDavid scores more assists than Matthews does points. That is a significant difference.

[mod]

There is nobody saying that Matthews is better than McDavid, but anyone stating that the gap between them is huge is just plain wrong.

Over their first 2 seasons, one could look at stats like this to compare them:

GP	G	A	Pts	ToI/Game	Minutes Played	PPG	PPPt	PP ToI/Game	PP ToI
127	46	102	148	20:20	43:02:20	6	41	3:01	6:22:15
144	74	58	132	17:51	42:50:24	13	34	2:19	5:34:32

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Tom Brady]

Add Nylander too and it still wouldn't be close. McDavid is so much more valuable on and off the ice from a business perspective.

 

[McYoungGuns]

You get a chance to get a guy who may end up as a generational player then you take it.
Two Art Rosses at McDavids age puts him in very elite company.
A great player in Matthews and a good one in Marner don’t come close to McDavid.

not only elite company... there is only one other player to do it, Gretzky and then u hear these leaf fans saying that he's not that much better than Matthews god thats embarassing

 

[pcruz]

Add Nylander too and it still wouldn't be close. McDavid is so much more valuable on and off the ice from a business perspective.

This quite possibly couldn't be more wrong.
Objectively speaking, a superstar American player that appeals to even 10% of the population in the US is more marketable than the same player appealing to 100% of Canadians.

 

[Soliloquy of a Dogge]

[mod]

There is nobody saying that Matthews is better than McDavid, but anyone stating that the gap between them is huge is just plain wrong.

Over their first 2 seasons, one could look at stats like this to compare them:

GP	G	A	Pts	ToI/Game	Minutes Played	PPG	PPPt	PP ToI/Game	PP ToI
127	46	102	148	20:20	43:02:20	6	41	3:01	6:22:15
144	74	58	132	17:51	42:50:24	13	34	2:19	5:34:32

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Just the opposite in fact.

P/60, pace hypotheticals and arbitrary sample sizes are the only ways in which things can be convoluted enough to put Matthews in the same paragraph as McDavid.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

[mod]

There is nobody saying that Matthews is better than McDavid, but anyone stating that the gap between them is huge is just plain wrong.

Over their first 2 seasons, one could look at stats like this to compare them:

GP	G	A	Pts	ToI/Game	Minutes Played	PPG	PPPt	PP ToI/Game	PP ToI
127	46	102	148	20:20	43:02:20	6	41	3:01	6:22:15
144	74	58	132	17:51	42:50:24	13	34	2:19	5:34:32

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

I see a guy who played 17 less games and had 16 more points, pretty big gap.

 

[DJJones]

As a Flames fan this kills me.

But, just stop it with the Matthews nonsense Leafs fans. It's getting embarassing.