Starting A Franchise: Matthews+Marner VS McDavid

Who Would You Rather Start a Franchise With?


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Soliloquy of a Dogge

I love you, Boots
Aug 8, 2012
40,873
5,512
San Diego, CA
This quite possibly couldn't be more wrong.
Objectively speaking, a superstar American player that appeals to even 10% of the population in the US is more marketable than the same player appealing to 100% of Canadians.

Hockey is an afterthought here in the States. It is behind Dog Conformation, Bowling and Poker. I doubt an American born superstar would change that considering the league's inability to grow the game or market its athletes.

Nothing but peanuts left when it comes to endorsements after the NBA/NFL/MLB/MLS, tennis and golf are through... so no, I don't really agree with that assessment considering they'd be marketing to a very tiny and limited demographic.
 

pcruz

Registered User
Mar 7, 2013
6,076
4,051
Vaughan
Just the opposite in fact. P/60, pace hypotheticals and arbitrary sample sizes are the only ways in which things can be convoluted enough to put Matthews in the same paragraph as McDavid.

You may call it arbitrary sample size, I call it one player's entire career and the corresponding number of seasons from the other.
Maybe if one player had played more than 2 seasons and the other played more than 3, we'd have larger sample size.
Otherwise, that's not points/60 minutes and projections.
That's just straight up total goals, points and total ice time.
There cannot be projection when you have the entire sample size.
 

GodEmperor

Registered User
Oct 12, 2017
2,919
3,168
Hope the lopsided result has helped you.
Why don't you go ahead and start a Matthews plus prime Gretzky versus McDavid poll. Then you can finally have the result Leafs fans seem to desperately need.

Thanks dude, it definitely has.

I'm just glad you guys got the superior guy, so much winning is sure to follow. ENJOY HIM!
 

Peggy

Registered User
Aug 6, 2016
5,274
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[mod]

There is nobody saying that Matthews is better than McDavid, but anyone stating that the gap between them is huge is just plain wrong.

Over their first 2 seasons, one could look at stats like this to compare them:

GPGAPtsToI/GameMinutes PlayedPPGPPPtPP ToI/GamePP ToI
1274610214820:2043:02:206413:016:22:15
144745813217:5142:50:2413342:195:34:32
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

But he's right you know?
 
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pcruz

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Mar 7, 2013
6,076
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Vaughan
I see a guy who played 17 less games and had 16 more points, pretty big gap.

Yes, played 17 less games and somehow still ended up with 12 more minutes played?
Played 17 less games and somehow still ended up with 48 more minutes played on the power play?

Possible that usage and total time played matters just as much as number of games played?
 

Tobias Kahun

Registered User
Oct 3, 2017
41,649
50,493
Yes, played 17 less games and somehow still ended up with 12 more minutes played?
Played 17 less games and somehow still ended up with 48 more minutes played on the power play?

Possible that usage and total time played matters just as much as number of games played?
Possible that Matthews p/60 goes down with more time played? If we're playing a whole bunch of what ifs
 
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McVespa99

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May 13, 2007
5,929
2,696
Thanks dude, it definitely has.

I'm just glad you guys got the superior guy, so much winning is sure to follow. ENJOY HIM!

We are not talkng about better teams here. TO has the better team IMO. But in this poll and every other poll that has McD and Matthews the answer is McD. Give up the foolishness already.
 

Fourier

Registered User
Dec 29, 2006
25,439
19,572
Waterloo Ontario
There is almost zero chance that this scenario would go 31-0 for McDavid, there are 3 that I can think of off the top of my head that would likely instantly take Matthews and Marner.

Beyond that, we have good data for how far an individual generational player can get you and the truth is without a proper team, definitely not winning the cup. Crosby and Malkin struggled together for nearly a decade to win more than one and we see the depths to which Edmonton can sink despite having McDavid and an alright core.

I'm not saying McDavid is a super wrong choice or anything like that, however Matthews' goal scoring, pts/60 and defensive play keep him close enough that getting a potential superstar winger who is nearly top 15 at age 20 would more than make it close.

You realise that McDavid and the Oilers version of Patrick Maroon had one less goal and had 7 more points combined than Matthews and Marner did last year. Even if you prorate players to 82 games the combination of McDavid and Nugent- Hopkins would have 72g 99a 171 pts vs Matthews and Marner at 67g 85 a 152 pts. And that is with Nuge playing the significant majority of the year with line mates who could not score.

If you take out pp numbers it would be McDavid/Nuge 63g 77a 140pts vs Marner/Matthews 52g 56a 108 pts.
 

Thenameless

Registered User
Apr 29, 2014
3,854
1,788
Having Connor McDavid on my team would make me very, very happy.

Marner is not nearly enough.
 

Oilslick941611

slapshot into the empty net...utterly irrelevant
Jul 4, 2006
13,715
12,523
Ottawa
I'll take two scheifele's just because contracts
But these are two top draft picks so I'm sure they'll end up costing more than McDavid
well, you can't really take 2 of 1 players. so that just cements taking 1 mcdavid.
 

BeastoftheEast85

Registered User
Dec 31, 2010
2,761
433
New Jersey
McDavid. He is just head and shoulders above these guys. Would be like asking if you would take Crosby or Bobby Ryan and Toews/Backstrom a decade ago.
 

Snippit

Registered User
Dec 5, 2012
16,584
9,910
Matthews and Marner.

Future top 3 center + future top 10 winger is pretty hard to pass up for me.
 

lawrence

Registered User
May 19, 2012
15,883
6,620
Much more common for a Matthews/ Marner level player to come a long then lets say a Connor McDavid type of player. anyone who disagrees needs to get their shit together. I will take the Mcdavid player, ank a year or 2, and land myself the Marner / Matthews caliber players. done and done.
 

WetcoastOrca

Registered User
Jun 3, 2011
38,142
21,936
Vancouver, BC
Marner is almost definitely going to be a top 10 winger in 2-3 years.
Nope. Possibly but not ‘almost definitely’.
He has hit 69 points. Let’s not get carried away.
There’s also no guarantee that Matthews is a top three center. McDavid, Crosby, Malkin and a whole slew of others will be in the running. Including players yet to be drafted.
On the other hand McDavid is and will continue to be the best player in the NHL for years. You take that player every single time.
 

Snippit

Registered User
Dec 5, 2012
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I’m more skeptical of calling Matthews a future top 3 center. The competition for that is much tougher.

It's definitely not set in stone...but he'll be top 5 at the least.

I don't think Matthews is all that close to McDavid...but finding Marner-level talent is difficult in this league, and I think that makes up the difference.
 

Sojourn

Registered User
Nov 1, 2006
50,523
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It's definitely not set in stone...but he'll be top 5 at the least.

I don't think Matthews is all that close to McDavid...but finding Marner-level talent is difficult in this league, and I think that makes up the difference.

That’s fair.
 

Peggy

Registered User
Aug 6, 2016
5,274
1,307
well, you can't really take 2 of 1 players. so that just cements taking 1 mcdavid.
But that isn't what you originally said
And it isn't what I'm saying
If there is another play of equal skill as scheifele who costs the same
I'd rather take the 2 based off value

However marner and Matthews shouls.end up costing more

That last comment doesn't help your argument when I'm agreeing with you
 

Snippit

Registered User
Dec 5, 2012
16,584
9,910
Nope. Possibly but not ‘almost definitely’.
He has hit 69 points. Let’s not get carried away.
There’s also no guarantee that Matthews is a top three center. McDavid, Crosby, Malkin and a whole slew of others will be in the running. Including players yet to be drafted.
On the other hand McDavid is and will continue to be the best player in the NHL for years. You take that player every single time.

I can see that. But I am just personally pretty high on Marner and his skill set.
 

Varan

Registered User
Nov 27, 2016
6,467
4,771
Toronto, Ontario
Exactly.

The notion that there isn't a massive gap is the stuff of delusion. No matter how many P/60 and "pace" arguments are thrown out, that gap isn't getting any narrower. The assumption that McDavid is finished improving is an ignorant one too.
can you explain the point of those arguments? I've never understood how P/60 can actually help make someone's case when ice time is highly variable
 
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