Movies: Star Wars VIII The Last Jedi, for those who have seen it! (SPOILERS)

[Mr Fahrenheit]

Luke contemplating killing Ben was so awful, does anyone think Yoda would of done that?

 

[MadDevil]

Luke contemplating killing Ben was so awful, does anyone think Yoda would of done that?

No, Yoda would just run away and hide on a swamp planet.

 

[Player big P]

Coming off TFA, it was like that famous "collaborative story" writing exercise, where two people try to write a story but neither of them has any interest in telling the story the other one started, so they just throw it all out with little passing references to how "Now that that's done..."

 

[Tonneau]

Luke contemplating killing Ben was so awful, does anyone think Yoda would of done that?

No. Yoda would ignore the problem until it grew out of control and the entire galaxy fell under tyrannical rule.

 

[Drytoast]

The Last Jedi is reactionary corporate trash that's filled with studio mandated check list items.

It's not highbrow, intellectual or artistic. It's not deep or thoughtful. It's not "indie". Perceptions of it aren't going to improve over time. The movie just sucks.

toss identity politics in there and you have a perfect post.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Luke contemplating killing Ben was so awful, does anyone think Yoda would of done that?

forget that Luke has been shown to be susceptible to the dark side? He has always been shown as a conflicted Jedi, he has Vader's blood in him.

he also has always been shown as an emotional, rash and reactive. He's never been shown as the picture of patience like Yoda has.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

You're equating raging at someone who taunted him in the middle of a duel to murdering a defenseless boy in his sleep after contemplating his course of action. Those are wildly different circumstances. One does not mean that the other is also in character.

I'm not saying they are the exact same, I am saying that Luke isn't above abandoning a pacifist approach depending on the circumstances.

Whether it makes sense or has been done in other franchises is beside the point. What matters is what Luke, a noble Jedi, would do. George Lucas based the Jedi on the samurai, not just in their swordplay, but in their code of conduct. Like samurai, Jedi don't kill defenseless or unsuspecting people because it's not honorable. After he chops off Vader's lightsaber-holding hand in RotJ, Luke doesn't finish him off. He switches off his lightsaber and turns his back to him.

You are making a lot of assumptions about what you think Luke is and always will be regardless of the circumstances.

Yes, Luke stopped before delivering the killing blow. But Luke also stopped himself before killing Ben in his sleep. But the initial weakness had already influenced actions and by then it was too late. Vader was wounded and extremely fatigued possibly contributing to his death from Palpatine's lighting attack, and Ben saw betrayal which led to a massacre and him turning to the dark side immediately.

For 40 years, Luke was the quintessential Jedi. Even if every other Jedi fell to the dark side or broke the Jedi code, Luke could be expected to stick to the Jedi principles and always do the right thing. While he does ultimately do the right thing in TLJ and doesn't kill Kylo in his sleep, it's out of character for him to even consider it, especially since he's the protector of the ancient Jedi texts that presumably contain that rule and all others that he lives by.

Where are you getting all this from? Certainly not the movies.

I think that what would've been more in character would've been for Luke to confront Kylo and kill him in a duel, if necessary, or, an even more noble of a solution: pursue and defeat Snoke, the source of the corruption. Murdering him in his sleep wasn't the only solution to the problem, and a true Jedi would've tried all others first.

For starters, your idea is incredibly lame. Secondly, you actually believe that Luke contemplating murdering Ben was his FIRST attempt at a solution?

That was to be my next point. Even if she had flown the Falcon on occasion, it would've been just moving it around out in the open, not dogfighting and flying fast in very tight spaces. She wouldn't have had any idea how hard it could bank/climb/dive, yet she never catastrophically misjudged any of those variables even once. It's like how driving a Formula 1 to the grocery store a few times doesn't prepare you for how it handles at top speed and with tight turns.

The force allowed her to do these things, as she cannot believe that she was able to pull off the maneuvers she did and comments about it. This is a major nitpick.

To answer your question, I don't think that it matters whether you think that the Falcon is exceptional (as Han does) or a hunk of junk (as the rest of the galaxy does). What matters is that, through four films, it's been proven to be a very capable and nimble ship.

Capable when you can get it running. It has proven over the films to be unreliable at times and as a ship that is likely not even being produced any more (it's what, 50+ years old) it makes perfect sense for Rey to initially choose a newer more reliable ship and call it out as garbage.

 

[MadDevil]

Wasn't the point of Luke almost killing Ben that even the legendary Jedi Master Luke Skywalker can screw up? Is Luke supposed to be a pure and perfect human being?

 

[Bjorn Le]

Wasn't the point of Luke almost killing Ben that even the legendary Jedi Master Luke Skywalker can screw up? Is Luke supposed to be a pure and perfect human being?

No, but he's not supposed to try to murder his teenage nephew because he has some dark side in him, just as Luke and Kylo's grandfather did too. It was an absolutely contrived plot point. Rian must have thought necessary to explain why Luke is hidden away and why Kylo is a sympathetic character, even though you could simply explain it away by Luke failing to keep Kylo from the dark side, not to mention the fact that Kylo was plenty sympathetic to begin with.

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

forget that Luke has been shown to be susceptible to the dark side? He has always been shown as a conflicted Jedi, he has Vader's blood in him.

he also has always been shown as an emotional, rash and reactive. He's never been shown as the picture of patience like Yoda has.

That doesnt sound like Luke at all, except when Vader taunts him about Leia

 

[Osprey]

I'm not saying they are the exact same, I am saying that Luke isn't above abandoning a pacifist approach depending on the circumstances.

The circumstances are so wildly different that you can't say that behavior in one is consistent with behavior in the other. One is in the middle of a duel, and, even then, with adrenaline and anger coursing through him, it doesn't appear to even cross Luke's mind to kill a defenseless Vader, and the other is in the middle of a boy's sleep, when Luke is relatively calm and has had plenty of time to contemplate his choice, and yet still decides on the least Jedi-like course of action.

For starters, your idea is incredibly lame. Secondly, you actually believe that Luke contemplating murdering Ben was his FIRST attempt at a solution?

My idea is so "incredibly lame" that it's basically what Obi-Wan did with Anakin: confront him and duel with him. Meanwhile, you're defending murdering an opponent, a boy, no less, in his sleep, which no Jedi has ever done or even considered an option.

The force allowed her to do these things, as she cannot believe that she was able to pull off the maneuvers she did and comments about it. This is a major nitpick.

You're assuming that the Force allowed her to fly like that, but that was well before we and she knew that she had any connection to the Force, so she just came off as an ace pilot.

Regardless of whether it was the Force or not, this is why she's called a Mary Sue, because things like that come so easily for her. Luke had had a bit of training and 3 years of practice in the Force and he still crash landed twice in The Empire Strikes Back. The Force sure didn't do him any good both of those times. Rey doesn't even have any idea that she's Force sensitive, much less had any training or practice, and she's able to do incredible things in a ship the first time that she tries them. The explanation that she used the Force doesn't make her not a Mary Sue. It just gives her an excuse for being one.

Capable when you can get it running. It has proven over the films to be unreliable at times and as a ship that is likely not even being produced any more (it's what, 50+ years old) it makes perfect sense for Rey to initially choose a newer more reliable ship and call it out as garbage.

I agree that that makes perfect sense... until you start arguing that she might've flown the Falcon around several times before and become familiar with it. If she had done that, she would know that it's in working, flyable condition. I don't see how it can be had both ways. Either she was familiar with it, which is why she was able to fly it, or she was unfamiliar with it and its capabilities, which is why she dismissed it and called it garbage.

 

[Tonneau]

Regardless of whether it was the Force or not, this is why she's called a Mary Sue, because things like that come so easily for her.

In the first movie, Luke, who had never flown a fighter before, managed to blow up the Death Star by pulling off a shot that pilots with many years of experience and using their advanced targeting systems couldn't come close to pulling off successfully. The shot was considered to be nearly impossible. At the time, Luke wasn't using the targeting system and R2-D2 was disabled.

As a child, Anakin, who had never flown a fighter, accidentally joined a space battle and destroyed the enemy's battle station single handedly.

Rey, who may or may not have every flown the ship (she clearly already knew it), pulls off a couple of impressive moves AND OMFG MARY SUE!!1!1!!!1 #feminismiscancer

The force had already been shown to be capable of guiding people in such a way as to allow them to do things that are impossible or nearly impossible for others to accomplish. There are issues with the new movies (including with Rey), but Rey being able to pilot the Falcon and doing some cool maneuvers isn't among them.

By the way, Anakin was able to do podracing, which is impossible for normal humans because it's too fast, without knowing about the Force. You don't need training for the force to guide you.

 

[Osprey]

In the first movie, Luke, who had never flown a fighter before, managed to blow up the Death Star by pulling off a shot that pilots with many years of experience and using their advanced targeting systems couldn't come close to pulling off successfully. The shot was considered to be nearly impossible. At the time, Luke wasn't using the targeting system and R2-D2 was disabled.

Luke owned and had extensive experience flying a T-16 on Tatooine. You can argue that it's not a fighter, but it had a large cannon much like those on an X-Wing. He used it to "bulls-eye womp rats," suggesting that he got really good at aiming... perhaps even without relying on advanced targeting systems, since the T-16, a beginner's craft, might not have had them.

Clearly, he also used the Force to fire on the Death Star, but he had extensive flying and aiming experience beforehand and he used the Force only to know when to simply pull a trigger. I really don't see that as comparable to having little experience and using the Force to continuously pull off stunt flying while under duress and Earth-like gravity in a ship that she might not have ever flown before.

 

[NyQuil]

Clearly, he also used the Force to fire on the Death Star, but he had extensive flying and aiming experience beforehand and he used the Force only to know when to simply pull a trigger. I really don't see that as comparable to having little experience and using the Force to continuously pull off stunt flying while under duress and Earth-like gravity in a ship that she might not have ever flown before.

Let's use the actual script as the source here, shall we?

1. Finn: We need a pilot!
Rey: We've got one!

-She's confident enough at this point to fly something. That implies some form of experience I would think.

-In fact, it's pretty similar to what Luke says to Han.

2. Finn: You ever fly this thing?
Rey: No! This ship hasn't flown in years.

-Again, not saying that she's never flown, just not the Falcon.

3. When Finn and Rey are talking at the same time:

Rey: I've flown some ships. but never left the planet.

-She has experience flying in gravity, she just doesn't have experience flying outside of a gravity well.

-And it's not as if she's perfect right away (for you Mary Sue fans), the ship lurches around and she collides with the ground numerous times until she gets used to it and under duress the Force guides her instincts.

-Meanwhile, Anakin flies through a pitched space battle and manages to take out the lead battlestation despite not actually leaving the ground for longer than a few seconds at any point in his history as a toddler. She's a pretty poor Mary Sue when compared to Anakin's Gary Stu-ness.

 

[NyQuil]

Either she was familiar with it, which is why she was able to fly it, or she was unfamiliar with it and its capabilities, which is why she dismissed it and called it garbage.

What's funny is your assumption that the original ship they were running towards wasn't superior to the Falcon in virtually every way at that point in time - at least in a comparative sense which is how it was portrayed.

Given how much time has gone by since the Falcon was built, there are pretty good odds that it's a better ship, or at least, better maintained and ready to fly.

After all, she says "it hasn't flown in years".

She knows better than anyone given how much time she has spent at the spaceport.

 

[Andy]

It was a little long, but I really liked it. Not sure what all the fuss is about.

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

The force can guide your instincts all it wants but it doesnt teach you what controls do what on a ship you have never been in.

In contrast Anakin has no idea what to do in the Naboo Starfighter and just starts pressing buttons, btw his ship was on auto pilot which is how he took off and joined the fight. It wasnt until they were in the air he had R2 take it off. After that it was just using simple stick control

 

[Hivemind]

I can't believe people are getting worked up about what type of controls were in the cockpit of various ships. If that's the type of stuff that is making or breaking a space fantasy movie for you, you need to seriously re-evaluate how you watch movies.

 

[Osprey]

-She's confident enough at this point to fly something. That implies some form of experience I would think.

-In fact, it's pretty similar to what Luke says to Han.

I said that she has little experience flying, not none at all. She's a 19-year-old girl who is poor and, essentially, a slave. Luke, on the other hand, is in his mid-20s, a free person with plenty of free time (because he lives with his aunt and uncle and doesn't need to spend all day scavenging to get by) and owns a flying craft. His experience piloting can be expected to be significantly greater than Rey's.

2. Finn: You ever fly this thing?
Rey: No! This ship hasn't flown in years.

Thanks for finding that. That answers the question of whether she'd ever flown the Falcon.

-She has experience flying in gravity, she just doesn't have experience flying outside of a gravity well.

Again, I didn't suggest that she didn't have experience flying in gravity. I mentioned gravity because it makes it harder to stunt fly, especially in an unfamiliar ship, and is not very comparable to Luke being able to fly an X-Wing for the first time in the open vacuum of space.

 

[ThePhoenixx]

People shouldn't get "pissed" about not liking a movie.

Now you are telling people how they should feel? Wow.

 

[MadDevil]

I can't believe people are getting worked up about what type of controls were in the cockpit of various ships. If that's the type of stuff that is making or breaking a space fantasy movie for you, you need to seriously re-evaluate how you watch movies.

I need to know whether or not Rey went to flight school dammit!

 

[RandV]

What's funny is your assumption that the original ship they were running towards wasn't superior to the Falcon in virtually every way at that point in time - at least in a comparative sense which is how it was portrayed.

Given how much time has gone by since the Falcon was built, there are pretty good odds that it's a better ship, or at least, better maintained and ready to fly.

After all, she says "it hasn't flown in years".

She knows better than anyone given how much time she has spent at the spaceport.

For this one I file it more under the lighter general Star Wars flaws rather than the 'new trilogy sucks!!!' type, but honestly at that point the "piece of junk" moniker on the Falcon is really overdone. That was Luke's first impression from an exterior view, but obviously what we saw through the OT suggests that while it was clunky on the outside under the hood it's a souped up smugglers ship with it's own bit of famous history - the Kessel run. Considering the Falcon took a lead role in ending the Empire that should take increase it's fame exponentially.

So considering that once Rey get's it going it's still the same old Falcon, there should have been two things that happened before it ends up in a derelict junk yard:

1. Someone goes "holy shit this is the Millennium Falcon!" and takes it away.
2. It doesn't get recognized but someone looks inside and says "damn this ship is decked out!" and takes it away.

So apart from ham-fisting in continuity to the OT there's no way the Falcon should just be left sitting in some junk yard without an owner.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

All I see is people saying "this doesn't make sense" or "this should happen instead"

Like I said. For some reason the suspension of disbelief doesn't work the same way for Rey that it did for Luke.

I say this as someome who somewhat believed in the Mary Sue narrative until I re-watched ANH and ESB and realized it was complete bullcrap.

 

[XX]

Like I said. For some reason the suspension of disbelief doesn't work the same way for Rey that it did for Luke.

I say this as someome who somewhat believed in the Mary Sue narrative until I re-watched ANH and ESB and realized it was complete bullcrap.

Luke actually sucks in ANH and nearly dies a half dozen times. He's the least competent between himself, Han, Ben, and Leia. Rey, at this point, absolutely is a mary sue. There's no justification for what she can do other than "she just can." It's incredibly boring. You don't need to suspend your belief for Luke - he's a dumbass farm hand that has no idea what life is like outside of his little bubble. Rey doesn't work because she's not a well realized character, the same as Finn. The TLJ was supposed to address all of this but only made it worse.

So apart from ham-fisting in continuity to the OT there's no way the Falcon should just be left sitting in some junk yard without an owner.

They missed an opportunity to show her working on the Falcon and generally learning to love it and its secrets. Literally a 30 second scene where she asks to work on it or offers to work on it for free instead of for rations. The stupid as shit "the garbage will do" head fake only works once. Weaving the Falcon into Rey's story would have made her taking over command of it with Chewy way more poignant.

 

[Rick Middleton]

Can we not just agree that TLJ was a steaming pile of dung and move on? Arguably the worst of all SW movies, including the horrible, horrible prequels. After a solid TFW and, arguably, the best SW movie in Rogue One, this was ... putrid.