Movies: Star Wars VIII The Last Jedi, for those who have seen it! (SPOILERS)

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Finlandia WOAT

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Meh, most of that is explainable by her career as a scavenger on Jakku.

.

Not really...

She's a loner, but can get people to trust her. She speaks Wookie (?). She picks up lightsaber combat instantly despite preferring a staff. She can fly at a high level despite expressing doubt that she can and even including moments of incompetence in flying the Falcon.

This is all indicative of a director who doesn't care about consistency, just that the present works for his needs (which is a consistent problem with Abrams). The only reason she speaks Wookie is to get a "I know you're talking about me" gag out of it and to avoid having a translator for Chewie, for example. "Mary Sue" is a less helpful way to understand the problem (it also ignores problems with Rey's character, which, even in the TLJ, is still muddled and unclear).

She actually does as much for the Resistance as Luke did for the Rebels.

Absolutely not. Luke literally saves their leader from space jail. Rey does nothing of the sort.
 

NyQuil

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Absolutely not. Luke literally saves their leader from space jail. Rey does nothing of the sort.

She gets the Death Star plans equivalent (Luke Skywalker map).

She defeats the First Order leader.

She helps a defector escape which in turn works to engineer the disruption of the energy shield on Star Killer base.

Yeah, very much of the sort.

If Luke had beaten Darth Vader down before leaving the Death Star he'd be in her class maybe.
 

Finlandia WOAT

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She gets the Death Star plans equivalent (Luke Skywalker map).

She defeats the First Order leader.

She helps a defector escape which in turn works to engineer the disruption of the energy shield on Star Killer base.

We're talking about Rey getting to go on the mission to destroy Starkiller Base (since that matches Luke going on the Death Star mission).

So the 2nd is out (she doesn't beat him so much as escape his mind rape).

Luke does the first, and actually does so in an effort to knowingly help the Rebels, while Rey merely refuses to aid the Empire while insisting she just wants to return to Jakku.

3rd is also just as incidental.

That's the problem I'm talking about here. Luke wants to help the Rebels. Rey is the opposite: she doesn't really want to help them, and is somewhat dragged into it. It's the reversal of Luke, but it doesn't have an actual narrative impact on the story- so the Rebels are just as accepting of Rey as they are of Luke in spite of Rey and Luke being reversals of one another.

But none of what you listed compares to literally busting their dear leader out of space jail. That's not the same as saying there's no reason for Rey to be there (which I acceded), merely that Luke and Rey's situations aren't comparable in this regard.
 

NyQuil

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We're talking about Rey getting to go on the mission to destroy Starkiller Base (since that matches Luke going on the Death Star mission).

What are you talking about?

She's not on the mission to go to destroy Starkiller Base. She's already there as Kylo's captive.

The mission she is given by the Resistance is to find Luke, after she's defeated Kylo Ren.

Why are you making up a hypothetical mission?

And Luke never went to the Death Star to free Princess Leia. That was also incidental.

I'll admit that Rey's entry into the Resistance is more along the lines of Han Solo's in that circumstances bring her into it, as opposed to Luke being actively interested in joining at the beginning of his story arc.

Regardless of Han Solo's monetary concerns or Rey's interest in her family, neither prevent them from performing heroic acts, being recognized by the Rebellion/Resistance and given important roles in the times to follow.

My point is both Luke and Rey made pretty epic contributions to the effort.
 
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irunthepeg

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The biggest thing for me after re-watching TFA is there's no hints that Poe is this hot shot that needs to be brought down a peg. He never messes things up in such a severe way or has any problems with the hierarchy. IMO, they should have dropped hints at it in TFA if they wanted that to be such a part of his arc in TLJ.

Super-Leia also still blows ass as does the comedic timing in this one.
 

Pilky01

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The biggest thing for me after re-watching TFA is there's no hints that Poe is this hot shot that needs to be brought down a peg. He never messes things up in such a severe way or has any problems with the hierarchy. IMO, they should have dropped hints at it in TFA if they wanted that to be such a part of his arc in TLJ.

Super-Leia also still blows ass as does the comedic timing in this one.

Yeah there is so much else wrong with the movie it really does annoy me when people focus on nonsense like "Rey is OP". And in retrospect I maybe should have just walked out when Poe was doing the prank call thing.

Also, if were mentioning inconsistencies between movies....apparently Resistance ace fighter pilot Poe Dameron has never seen so much as a picture of Admiral Holdo despite hearing the tales of her accomplishments, but inside of 48 hours cargo grunts like Rose know exactly who Finn is. :dunno:

Mainly I think Rian Johnson is just a weird guy who doesn't have a very good sense for mainstream appeal. I am absolutely certain he put that ridiculous Luke Skywalker shoulder brush thing in the movie because he thought it would become a popular gif or meme....but it just looks sad and embarrassing.

landscape-1516636474-luke-skywalker-shoulder-brush-star-wars-last-jedi.gif
 
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ArGarBarGar

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The biggest thing for me after re-watching TFA is there's no hints that Poe is this hot shot that needs to be brought down a peg. He never messes things up in such a severe way or has any problems with the hierarchy. IMO, they should have dropped hints at it in TFA if they wanted that to be such a part of his arc in TLJ.

Super-Leia also still blows ass as does the comedic timing in this one.
Poe is established as a hot shot in TFA and it is expanded on in TLJ to where maybe that type of attitude isn't always good. It was done perfectly well.
 

Osprey

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TLJ is crammed and while the bloat is fairly minimal it feels a bit scatterbrain. The Canto Blight section is pretty weak (but it's very short), Leia flying in space was straight up laughable, the space chase concept is rather silly (yeah WWII homage and a cool one but it doesn't work as well in space even if I loved the tension it created) and so on and so forth.

The movie is far from perfect but I will be honest, whenever someone brings up the Mary Sue stuff I lose interest in the critique. It is so minor and yes, I do think it's a double standard because Luke is just as Mary Sue as Rey was in my mind. There is no need to retread why Rey is more of a Mary Sue than Luke, I don't buy it.

Every criticism of the film could be dismissed as "minor" if singled out, including the three that you listed (Canto Bight, Leia space flying and the space chase). Is a side character space flying for 10 seconds in one scene really less minor of a criticism than one about the character development of the primary protagonist over two whole films? I don't buy that. I don't want to defend Leia space flying, since that was an utterly stupid 10 seconds, but it was over and done with relatively quickly and, thus, is a relatively minor thing compared to Rey's frequent use of her abilities. You may disagree with the Mary Sue complaint, which is fine, but it shouldn't be dismissed as a minor criticism, especially not compared to the criticisms that you just supported.

I've noticed quite a few times where someone who disagrees with the Mary Sue complaint seems to make the argument that "there's so much else to criticize in the film," as though that's any argument against it. It's not. It's a worthless argument, first of all, because that can be used against any complaint. If you can't criticize one of the many things wrong with the film because "there's so much else to criticize," then you can't criticize anything. Secondly, it gives the illusion that the other party is complaining about nothing else, which isn't true, because pretty much everyone who has the Mary Sue complaint also criticizes many other things in the film. It's one thing to disagree with it, but to dismiss it by portraying it as some people's main reason for disliking the film isn't fair or accurate.

BTW, you may not want to retread the Mary Sue debate, but you are the one who brought it up out of nowhere.
 
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Do Make Say Think

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Every criticism of the film could be dismissed as "minor" if singled out, including the three that you listed (Canto Bight, Leia space flying and the space chase). Is a side character space flying for 10 seconds in one scene really less minor of a criticism than one about the character development of the primary protagonist over two whole films? I don't buy that. I don't want to defend Leia space flying, since that was an utterly stupid 10 seconds, but it was over and done with relatively quickly and, thus, is a relatively minor thing compared to Rey's frequent use of her abilities. You may disagree with the Mary Sue complaint, which is fine, but it shouldn't be dismissed as a minor criticism, especially not compared to the criticisms that you just supported.

I've noticed quite a few times where someone who disagrees with the Mary Sue complaint seems to make the argument that "there's so much else to criticize in the film," as though that's any argument against it. It's not. It's a worthless argument, first of all, because that can be used against any complaint. If you can't criticize one of the many things wrong with the film because "there's so much else to criticize," then you can't criticize anything. Secondly, it gives the illusion that the other party is complaining about nothing else, which isn't true, because pretty much everyone who has the Mary Sue complaint also criticizes many other things in the film. It's one thing to disagree with it, but to dismiss it by portraying it as some people's main reason for disliking the film isn't fair or accurate.

BTW, you may not want to retread the Mary Sue debate, but you are the one who brought it up out of nowhere.

Not all criticism is equal. I tried offering examples of actual issues with the movie. The degree to which these issues will hamper someone's enjoyment of the movie will vary from person to person but stuff like Canto Blight and making the bulk of the movie be about a chase in space (that doesn't work in terms of physics in order to make it an homage to WWII films since Johnson felt the OT did the same) are integral parts of the movie.

Rey is not a problematic character in this movie at all. In fact, looking back, she does very little in this movie outside of fighting Snoke's retinue and lifting the rocks at the end of the movie. She's even less of a Mary Sue than she was in VII and yet the narrative is alive and strong.
 

johnjm22

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Rey is not a problematic character in this movie at all. In fact, looking back, she does very little in this movie outside of fighting Snoke's retinue and lifting the rocks at the end of the movie. She's even less of a Mary Sue than she was in VII and yet the narrative is alive and strong.
Agree with the embolden. That's part of the problem with the film.
 

Do Make Say Think

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Agree with the embolden. That's part of the problem with the film.

I hated how focused on the Jedi the PT was.

I like seeing more of the universe which is why I sort of respected the decision to go with Canto Blight and show the rich "everyman" of the universe. The problem is the two sequences really deflate all the tension the space chase builds.
 

irunthepeg

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Yeah there is so much else wrong with the movie it really does annoy me when people focus on nonsense like "Rey is OP". And in retrospect I maybe should have just walked out when Poe was doing the prank call thing.

Also, if were mentioning inconsistencies between movies....apparently Resistance ace fighter pilot Poe Dameron has never seen so much as a picture of Admiral Holdo despite hearing the tales of her accomplishments, but inside of 48 hours cargo grunts like Rose know exactly who Finn is. :dunno:

Mainly I think Rian Johnson is just a weird guy who doesn't have a very good sense for mainstream appeal. I am absolutely certain he put that ridiculous Luke Skywalker shoulder brush thing in the movie because he thought it would become a popular gif or meme....but it just looks sad and embarrassing.

landscape-1516636474-luke-skywalker-shoulder-brush-star-wars-last-jedi.gif

The Poe prank call was exactly the first time I audibly said "what the f***?" and it took me right out of things.
 
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johnjm22

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I hated how focused on the Jedi the PT was.

I like seeing more of the universe which is why I sort of respected the decision to go with Canto Blight and show the rich "everyman" of the universe. The problem is the two sequences really deflate all the tension the space chase builds.
I thought TLJ was over bloated with too many characters it didn't know what to do with. When you have so many it's hard to give any one them the focus they deserve. I didn't feel like Rey had enough of an arc.

People complain about Rey being too good in TFA, but the script allows Daisy Ridley's charisma to shine. I didn't feel any of that charisma in TLJ.

The movie would have made more sense had she joined up with Kylo when given the chance.
 

Do Make Say Think

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I thought TLJ was over bloated with too many characters it didn't know what to do with. When you have so many it's hard to give any one them the focus they deserve. I didn't feel like Rey had enough of an arc.

People complain about Rey being too good in TFA, but the script allows Daisy Ridley's charisma to shine. I didn't feel any of that charisma in TLJ.

The movie would have made more sense had she joined up with Kylo when given the chance.

Her teaming up with Kylo would be very cool but that would be a problematic way to end the second movie of a trilogy on I'd say.

I liked that she was convinced she could save him and failed to do so all while dealing with Luke and her own insecurity about her lineage.

Her going from "I want to kill you" to "I want to save you" was a bit too abrupt for my liking, it is a consequence of having the space chase be the main event driving most of the movie (everything has to happen in a few hours).

Also @Finlandia WOAT, you do a poor devil's advocate ;)
 

Shockmaster

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I didn't really like the "woe is me" version of Luke from the film. After redeeming Anakin in Return of the Jedi, I just don't buy that he would quit and run away from everything after losing his nephew to the dark side.
 

Osprey

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I didn't really like the "woe is me" version of Luke from the film. After redeeming Anakin in Return of the Jedi, I just don't buy that he would quit and run away from everything after losing his nephew to the dark side.

That's a good point. If there's anyone who understands that there can still be redemption for those who turn to the dark side, it's Luke, who was the only person to witness his father turning against the Emperor. If Darth Vader could turn, he's not likely going to give up on conflicted teenager who might just be going through a phase.
 
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RandV

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Not really...

She's a loner, but can get people to trust her. She speaks Wookie (?). She picks up lightsaber combat instantly despite preferring a staff. She can fly at a high level despite expressing doubt that she can and even including moments of incompetence in flying the Falcon.

I'm not really getting into the argument on one side or the other, but as for her 'flying skills despite being an orphan in a desert' the official explanation which was elaborated on in the books is that she spent a lot of time in her burnt out AT-AT home on imperial flight simulators. Not sure what a flight simulator would be doing in an AT-AT, but considering her job is scavenging from a crashed imperial star destroyer it's not really a stretch that she would have something like that.
 

Osprey

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I'm not really getting into the argument on one side or the other, but as for her 'flying skills despite being an orphan in a desert' the official explanation which was elaborated on in the books is that she spent a lot of time in her burnt out AT-AT home on imperial flight simulators. Not sure what a flight simulator would be doing in an AT-AT, but considering her job is scavenging from a crashed imperial star destroyer it's not really a stretch that she would have something like that.

The official explanation for her flying skills is that, in her spare time, her hobby is being a gamer gurl? That has to be one of the dumber explanations that I've heard. How did she power a flight simulator in the desert when she had barely enough credits to buy and cook her food and went to bed when it got dark presumably because she couldn't afford to keep lights on? How did becoming familiar with flying TIE fighters prepare her for piloting an oddly shaped and lopsided Millennium Falcon in close quarters? This seems to be one of those cases where the explanation is no better than having no explanation.
 

ArGarBarGar

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That's a good point. If there's anyone who understands that there can still be redemption for those who turn to the dark side, it's Luke, who was only person there when his father turned against the Emperor. If Darth Vader could turn, he's not likely going to give up on conflicted teenager who might just be going through a phase.
True. That's why in a rage he viciously attacked Vader and chopped his hand off, possibly contributing to his ultimate death.

And I find it weird to consider it a "phase" when it isn't just him feeling the dark side but Snoke actively corrupting his mind. And at the end all Luke did was light his lightsaber and feel immediately ashamed of himself for letting it get this far.

As far as Rey being a good pilot: she works in a junkyard and has so all her life. She was obviously familiar with the Falcon and what was done to make adjustments to it. It shouldn't be a stretch to consider that she also was tasked to move it on occasion, or she simply learned watching others do it and the force took care of the rest.
 

Newsworthy

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Why are you ruining it for me and the many others who have yet to watch this disaster of a movie?
Or at least that's what I'm reading.
Or it really isn't that bad.
Why?
AND can Disney recover?
Or did they with Solo?
 

Osprey

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True. That's why in a rage he viciously attacked Vader and chopped his hand off, possibly contributing to his ultimate death.

That might be a good point if he viciously attacked Vader after Vader saved his life. How does something that he did before the act of redemption suggest that he didn't learn from it?

And I find it weird to consider it a "phase" when it isn't just him feeling the dark side but Snoke actively corrupting his mind.

Snoke was likely able to corrupt his mind because he was in a phase in which he was young, rebellious and conflicted. Even if you don't agree, Snoke actively corrupting him implies that it wasn't entirely Kylo's fault and gives more hope that the damage could be undone.

As far as Rey being a good pilot: she works in a junkyard and has so all her life. She was obviously familiar with the Falcon and what was done to make adjustments to it. It shouldn't be a stretch to consider that she also was tasked to move it on occasion, or she simply learned watching others do it and the force took care of the rest.

She also dismissed the Falcon as "garbage" when Finn first pointed it out. I doubt that she would've done that if she had flown it and known how capable it still was.
 
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ArGarBarGar

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That might be a good point if he viciously attacked Vader after Vader saved his life. How does something that he did before learning that redemption is possible suggest that he didn't learn it?
He did that AFTER he believed Vader could be redeemed. And the point is that even despite believing in the good of those who have done evil things he can still be swayed away from that based on outside factors. Luke snaps when Vader taunts him with Leia and he contemplates murdering a boy because of his raw power and his belief that the corruption is too far gone.

Snoke was likely able to corrupt his mind because he was in a phase in which he was young, immature and conflicted. Even if you don't want to agree with that, Snoke corrupting him implies that it wasn't entirely Kylo's fault, which is the point that I was trying to make.
I wasn't arguing it was his fault. But regardless of whose fault it is if you feel a young boy will become something that will cause immeasurable pain and suffering you would not even consider putting a stop to it? That is a trope that has been used a few times in recent memory, namely Looper and Deadpool 2.

She also dismissed the Falcon as "garbage" when Finn first pointed it out. I doubt that she would've done that if she had flown it and known how capable it still was.
I dont really believe she would have done much flying other than moving it around or seeing her guardian mess around with it, so she would have no idea exactly what it can do. And the ship she originally focused on was most likely more reliable to use to get off the planet. Not to mention throughout the Star Wars movies the Falcon has explicitly been shown to, in fact, be a piece of junk (shown during ESB when Han can barely get the ship off Hoth and needs its hyperdrive repaired because it is so broken). Do you believe the ship itself is exceptional or just a well known hunk of junk that we like because it was flown by one of the series most beloved characters?
 

RandV

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The official explanation for her flying skills is that, in her spare time, her hobby is being a gamer gurl? That has to be one of the dumber explanations that I've heard. How did she power a flight simulator in the desert when she had barely enough credits to buy and cook her food and went to bed when it got dark presumably because she couldn't afford to keep lights on? How did becoming familiar with flying TIE fighters prepare her for piloting an oddly shaped and lopsided Millennium Falcon in close quarters? This seems to be one of those cases where the explanation is no better than having no explanation.

To be fair it's not like Star Wars has ever set a high bar for having great flying skills, Tie fighter pilots seem fly about as well as Stormtroopers shoot.
 

Osprey

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He did that AFTER he believed Vader could be redeemed. And the point is that even despite believing in the good of those who have done evil things he can still be swayed away from that based on outside factors. Luke snaps when Vader taunts him with Leia and he contemplates murdering a boy because of his raw power and his belief that the corruption is too far gone.

You're equating raging at someone who taunted him in the middle of a duel to deciding (presumably after thinking about it for quite a while) to murder a defenseless boy in his sleep. Those are wildly different circumstances. One does not mean that the other is also in character.

I wasn't arguing it was his fault. But regardless of whose fault it is if you feel a young boy will become something that will cause immeasurable pain and suffering you would not even consider putting a stop to it? That is a trope that has been used a few times in recent memory, namely Looper and Deadpool 2.

Whether it makes sense or has been done in other franchises is beside the point. What matters is what Luke, a noble Jedi, would do. George Lucas based the Jedi on the samurai, not just in their swordplay, but in their code of conduct. Like samurai, Jedi don't kill defenseless or unsuspecting people because it's not honorable. After he chops off Vader's lightsaber-holding hand in RotJ, Luke doesn't finish him off. He switches off his lightsaber and turns his back to him.

For 40 years, Luke was the quintessential Jedi. Even if every other Jedi fell to the dark side or broke the Jedi code, Luke could be expected to stick to the Jedi principles and always do the right thing. While he does ultimately do the right thing in TLJ and doesn't kill Kylo in his sleep, it's out of character for him to even consider it, especially since he's the protector of the ancient Jedi texts that presumably contain that rule and all others that he lives by.

I think that what would've been more in character would've been for Luke to confront Kylo and kill him in a duel, if absolutely necessary, or, an even more noble of a solution: pursue and defeat Snoke, the source of the corruption. Murdering Kylo in his sleep wasn't the only solution to the problem, and a true Jedi would've tried all others first.

I dont really believe she would have done much flying other than moving it around or seeing her guardian mess around with it, so she would have no idea exactly what it can do. And the ship she originally focused on was most likely more reliable to use to get off the planet. Not to mention throughout the Star Wars movies the Falcon has explicitly been shown to, in fact, be a piece of junk (shown during ESB when Han can barely get the ship off Hoth and needs its hyperdrive repaired because it is so broken). Do you believe the ship itself is exceptional or just a well known hunk of junk that we like because it was flown by one of the series most beloved characters?

That was to be my next point. Even if she had flown the Falcon on occasion, it would've been just moving it around out in the open, not dogfighting and flying fast in very tight spaces. She wouldn't have had any idea how hard it could bank/climb/dive, yet she never catastrophically misjudged any of those variables even once during her escape. It's like how driving a Formula 1 race car to the grocery store a few times wouldn't prepare you for how it handles at top speed and with tight turns.

To answer your question, I don't think that it matters whether any of us think that the Falcon is exceptional (as Han does) or a hunk of junk (as the rest of the galaxy does). What matters is that, through four films, it's been proven to be a very capable and nimble ship.
 
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