Movies: Star Wars - Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker

[Blender]

I would also say the old Jedi order (at least the one in place at the time of the PT) isn't necessarily meant to be looked at as a good example of what to do considering their hubris and incompetence led to their greatest pupil jumping at the chance to betray them and help murder all of them.

I wish Lucas did a good job of actually demonstrating the pitfalls with the previous order as it seemed he intended to.

It's difficult to determine where sloppy writing ends and intentional character failures begin in those movies. Lucas didn't in any way have them all planned out, and they really winged it through those movies even worse than he did the OT, where there were a lot of other people with creative input.

 

[x Tame Impala]

Him shooting better than a computer has everything to do with the force guiding the way, nothing to do with his ability to shoot vermin back at home.

It's the same concept with Rey. She is able to do an insane flip because of force interjection, and she mentions she has flown before as a line to give justification for her being able to fly the Falcon at all.

Luke is told by a Jedi Master before he takes off that "The Force will be with you", later when he blows the Death Star up he's told to "use the force" in order to make that impossible shot. This is all after he spends the first 2/3rds of the movie with that Jedi Master, learning what the Force is and even given a little light saber training. He's finally told "The Force will be with you, always" which actually sets up the premise that the Force can be used for way more than Luke even imagined. It's character building AND it's world building.

Stop writing the script for this new trilogy. Rey is an orphan junker who just says she can fly. She then hops in a "pile of junk" that "hasn't flown in years", evades fighters, and pulls off the single greatest maneuver the Millenium Falcon has ever accomplished. She is, out of nowhere, an expert pilot on one of the greatest ships in the galaxy and when she's asked about how that's possible she says "I have no idea!".

Also is it insane to think that Rey may have learned about Jedi mind tricks from either learning about the rebellion and Luke Skywalker or through her and Kylo Ren sharing a mind (so to speak)? The whole "fanboy/girl learns that the legends are real and tries things out" thing seemed like a fundamental part of her character in TFA. I can't think of any Star Wars fan that wouldn't try every single trick in the book if they were told that Star Wars was real by someone from the stories.

You are reaching so far with this. Han tells Rey about Luke in TFA and when he mentions the Jedi she asserts "They were real?". Again, stop writing the script for the directors. She has no idea the Force is even a possibility when she's pulling off an impossible move in a ship she's never flown (or anyone else for that matter). She's only loosely heard about the Jedi and you think that justifies her having Jedi powers already and can perform Jedi mind tricks??? Something Luke, Obi Wan, and Qui Gon, couldn't even always do?

Just for arguments sake, i'll grant you that yes...Rey felt the Force and was able to do the coolest thing in the millenium falcon ever and was able to use Jedi mind tricks on a storm trooper without ever practicing and was able to fight and beat an injured Kylo (essentially trained Jedi and extremely powerful Force user) all because of the Force. Fine. But that just proves my point and the general criticism of Rey and this trilogy. None of this was written into the movies. None of it was ever told the audience in the actual movie. None of it was earned by the characters. Rey is simply just too perfect and too good at EVERYTHING to be a believable character that fans are invested in. She's not relate able because she's just thrust into all of these situations and excels at EVERYTHING.

For example, there's a scene in TLJ where she wants to turn Kylo to the light so her plan is to have Chewbaca fly her to the First Order and board a ship with Kylo Ren and Supreme freaking Leader Snoke on it. She tells Chewie to "wait here and I'll let you know when to pick me up". Even Rey knows that she cannot and will not fail at anything. She believes so much in herself that she'll put herself in a situation where she's right next to literally the two most dangerous individuals in the galaxy and she actually expects to come out ok.

All of these things are flat-out bad writing. JJ and especially RJ wanted their scenes before they wanted their story. There are too many things that are blatantly not explained, too many pieces not put in their place first so things actually makes sense, and the audience is just meant to gobble it up because it's Star Wars. And that's when the movies are actually working. That's not mentioning the mountain of plot holes and lazy conveniences that, while some of them are small, all add up to movies that are very, very flawed.

Rey is an extremely poorly written character and IMHO there's absolutely no defending it

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

It's not like she really struggled to learn the ways of the force or how to fight with a lightsaber either, she just sort of learned those skills right away as the plot demanded. The skills don't feel earned. Her character is pretty much a mix of Anakin from The Phantom Menace and Legolas from The Lord of the Rings. She isn't a perfect fit for the Mary Sue/Gary Stu trope, but she fits a lot of the criteria of it and it's a big sign of weak writing when this is your main character. It really seems like they put the cart before the horse with her character. They had a set of traits they wanted Rey to have, but instead of starting the character from a different point and developing her into that character, they just inserted the character with all of those traits into the very start of the movie.

I think they have missed out on a ton of potential with her character, because at her core she is a likeable character that you can sympathize with and want to follow on her journey. She really should have started from a different place, something like due to her abandonment issues she has latched onto an authority figure on Jakku who has her doing unscrupulous things to survive in the harsh environment. Stealing, cheating, etc. for some kind of gangster boss, but at her core she knows this is wrong but it's the only way she knows how to survive and it's how she fits in. Then she runs into BB8 and maybe Finn which gives her this opportunity to do something with her life for a better purpose than she has been living, but along the way because of adversity she struggles with overcoming her past and the way she used to do things because she survived so long doing things that way. The temptations from the dark side would be so much more appealing to her because she was already involved in a shady world, and it would make refusing those temptations so much more powerful in the same way Luke overcoming his anger and hatred in ROTJ is so powerful. By the time you get to some point in the third movie, you would have spent a lot of time developing this character into the strong, noble hero with a great skill set that you want, and the payoff would be so much stronger because you followed her journey and struggles to get there.

If they had given her some kind of sword instead of a staff also, it would easily forgive her later skill with a lightsaber, as while sword and lightsabers aren't directly the same, they involve similar mechanics that could be adapted with less training than otherwise required. The piloting and repair skills she instantly has are beyond belief, and could have been explored and explained if they had made any effort to do so. Her piloting skills are like Anakin's in TPM, they seem to come from nowhere. She even says as much in the movie. A scene of her actually repairing things would have went a long way to making that skill more plausible, even better if they had just shown her working on the Falcon early in the movie.

so...did...Luke

Luke went from whiny teenager to using the Force to make an impossible shot to blow up the Death Star in the matter of a couple days. In the 2nd movie he trains for a few weeks with an old Jedi master and is suddenly good enough to fight Vader


What grand Force thing has Rey done? If you look at it, she really hasn't done anything yet.

She wasnt the one that saved the day in either movie. It was Poe, Han and Finn in the 1st one, and Luke/Leia in the 2nd one.

She got a couple hits in on a crippled Kylo in a lightsaber fight. Complaints about that fight always leave out the fact that Kylo had just been shot in the gut with a bowcaster, and assume that Kylo himself has been fully trained.

They also ignore that she is shown to be very well trained in using a staff, a fighting skill that easily translates to a lightsaber.

Her accomplishments to date are flew the Falcon, got a couple hits in on Kylo, moved some rocks

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Stop writing the script for this new trilogy.

I'm not writing the script, I am making observations based on what I saw. You disagree. These comments are not necessary and don't benefit the discussion at all.

 

[x Tame Impala]

I'm not writing the script, I am making observations based on what I saw. You disagree. These comments are not necessary and don't benefit the discussion at all.

My post showed that's exactly what you're doing. You disagree, but my reasoning was laid out well enough

 

[ArGarBarGar]

My post showed that's exactly what you're doing. You disagree, but my reasoning was laid out well enough

I am not asserting she was actively using the force to make the Falcon flip. I am asserting her connection to the force allowed it to be done effectively, whether by her actively doing things with the Falcon to make it happen or the force interjecting. It isn't really a stretch to come up with that interpretation, especially when Rey can't even quantify how it happened herself.

She "tries out" force related things AFTER learning that "it's true, all of it." She is likely aware of the stories already (look at her former home and all the Rebellion stuff she has, and look how pleased she is just wearing a Rebel helmet and eating her dinner) and is certainly enamored in the stories. These are things you can easily interpret from what was laid out in the movies. The disagreement should largely stem in the interpretation of how the force can be implemented and if people need X amount of practice and training to do something regardless of mindset or connection with the force. What exactly is the "force canon", anyway? Especially considering none of the three trilogies have a set rule that all follow exactly.

 

[RobBrown4PM]

The clone wars series does a very good job at showing how Palpatine is able to manipulate the Jedi order.

 

[ThePhoenixx]

so...did...Luke

Luke went from whiny teenager to using the Force to make an impossible shot to blow up the Death Star in the matter of a couple days. In the 2nd movie he trains for a few weeks with an old Jedi master and is suddenly good enough to fight Vader


What grand Force thing has Rey done? If you look at it, she really hasn't done anything yet.

She wasnt the one that saved the day in either movie. It was Poe, Han and Finn in the 1st one, and Luke/Leia in the 2nd one.

She got a couple hits in on a crippled Kylo in a lightsaber fight. Complaints about that fight always leave out the fact that Kylo had just been shot in the gut with a bowcaster, and assume that Kylo himself has been fully trained.

They also ignore that she is shown to be very well trained in using a staff, a fighting skill that easily translates to a lightsaber.

Her accomplishments to date are flew the Falcon, got a couple hits in on Kylo, moved some rocks

Other than his 'force' shot in to the portal Luke really didn't accomplish anything in A New Hope.

He would have died in the desert if Obi-Wan hadn't saved him.
He would have died by the hands of the storm troopers if Obi-Wan had not saved him.
He would have died in the bar had Obi-Wan not saved him.
He would have died in Vaders' ship if Obi-Wan and his friends had not saved him.
All the pilots died so he could fly down the trench unmolested to shoot his missile.

He had bravado, but he was young and dumb.

Vader also kicked his butt in V. Luke was lucky to escape. Lost a hand on that one.

 

[x Tame Impala]

I am not asserting she was actively using the force to make the Falcon flip. I am asserting her connection to the force allowed it to be done effectively, whether by her actively doing things with the Falcon to make it happen or the force interjecting. It isn't really a stretch to come up with that interpretation, especially when Rey can't even quantify how it happened herself.

She "tries out" force related things AFTER learning that "it's true, all of it." She is likely aware of the stories already (look at her former home and all the Rebellion stuff she has, and look how pleased she is just wearing a Rebel helmet and eating her dinner) and is certainly enamored in the stories. These are things you can easily interpret from what was laid out in the movies. The disagreement should largely stem in the interpretation of how the force can be implemented and if people need X amount of practice and training to do something regardless of mindset or connection with the force. What exactly is the "force canon", anyway? Especially considering none of the three trilogies have a set rule that all follow exactly.

Do you agree that it's at the very least a legitimate criticism that there is a lot in these movies that's reliant on a high level of interpretation?

Some fans are ready, willing, and able, to fill in the blanks that JJ and RJ left in their respective movies. You seem to be one of them. That's fine. It has to be. There isn't an objective measure of film quality, but both of these movies haven't done enough in my eyes to make the characters and general plot believable or captivating.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Do you agree that it's at the very least a legitimate criticism that there is a lot in these movies that's reliant on a high level of interpretation?

I think a lot of media requires a lot of interpretation. I do not consider the fact things aren't directly laid out or obvious as a criticism of itself.

It's like criticizing Starship Troopers because a lot of people failed to notice the satire present in the film because it wasn't stated outright. That in itself isn't a criticism.

Some fans are ready, willing, and able, to fill in the blanks that JJ and RJ left in their respective movies. You seem to be one of them. That's fine. It has to be. There isn't an objective measure of film quality, but both of these movies haven't done enough in my eyes to make the characters and general plot believable or captivating.

As I have pointed out, these "blanks" are things that are framed and shown through the movie. Not everything has to be explicitly stated or exposited to be present.

 

[x Tame Impala]

@ArGarBarGar I fundamentally disagree. Guess we'll have to leave it at that.

This Star Wars franchise is so culturally interesting because people seem to either love it or hate it. They're so polarized that there seems to be relatively little common ground. It's like a "is the dress blue or is it white?" thing. People view these two movies in only one way and there's apparently no chance to see it the other way

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Critiques against Rey=Sexism

The fact that Rey doesn't get the benefit of the doubt (despite everything being explained very plainly) that most male characters get in movies hints at an underlying problem.

The movie addresses why Rey is amazing (there was an awakening and Snoke explaining what that means) but, for some reason, it isn't enough for a lot of people. Why is that?

No need to reply to this, my point has been made.

 

[Osprey]

It took me a while to see it but the lengths people go to to justify their reticence of having a strong woman in a lead role is pretty amazing.

I'd like to hear your explanation for why so many of those who have a problem with Rey adore the Ripley character in the Aliens franchise and have never had an iota of criticism for her.

The fact that Rey doesn't get the benefit of the doubt (despite everything being explained very plainly) that most male characters get in movies hints at an underlying problem.

The movie addresses why Rey is amazing (there was an awakening and Snoke explaining what that means) but, for some reason, it isn't enough for a lot of people. Why is that?

No need to reply to this, my point has been made.

The only point that you've made is that, when you don't understand something, you like to jump to conclusions that make others look bad (and yourself good at their expense). You don't give real people the benefit of the doubt, which makes it ironic that you're quick to chastise them for not giving a written, fictional character the same thing.

 

[Blender]

so...did...Luke

Luke went from whiny teenager to using the Force to make an impossible shot to blow up the Death Star in the matter of a couple days. In the 2nd movie he trains for a few weeks with an old Jedi master and is suddenly good enough to fight Vader


What grand Force thing has Rey done? If you look at it, she really hasn't done anything yet.

She wasnt the one that saved the day in either movie. It was Poe, Han and Finn in the 1st one, and Luke/Leia in the 2nd one.

She got a couple hits in on a crippled Kylo in a lightsaber fight. Complaints about that fight always leave out the fact that Kylo had just been shot in the gut with a bowcaster, and assume that Kylo himself has been fully trained.

They also ignore that she is shown to be very well trained in using a staff, a fighting skill that easily translates to a lightsaber.

Her accomplishments to date are flew the Falcon, got a couple hits in on Kylo, moved some rocks

You are just parroting the same strawman that was posted a page ago. I have never claimed that Luke Skylwaker is a perfectly written character, nor do I think that he is, especially in ANH. He is without a doubt a better written character than Rey, but that doesn't make him perfect and above criticism. It's not even difficult to find criticism about Luke's character from the OT. You aren't actually addressing the criticism of Rey with your argument here, you're just criticizing Luke.

Even if you demonstrate that Luke has just as many writing flaws as Rey and I or anyone else agreed with you, all you have demonstrated is that both Luke and Rey are equally flawed characters. Showing that Luke is also poorly written does absolutely nothing to prove that Rey is a well written character.

On a side note, no fighting with a staff would not easily translate to fighting with a lightsaber. They operate on completely different mechanics. This is why I said earlier in the thread had they just given her a sword (or even a wooden club that handled like a sword) this entire criticism goes away. Not that the way a lightsaber is used in any of these movies would be a very efficient way of using one, but that's a different topic.

You like a few others before you are also solely focusing on the skill criticisms instead of the much larger and more important criticisms of her lack of a character arc and development that I made. I don't even care about her magic abilities that much, it doesn't break the character, the lack of a proper arc does.

The fact that Rey doesn't get the benefit of the doubt (despite everything being explained very plainly) that most male characters get in movies hints at an underlying problem.

I mean, this just isn't even true and I've already named some examples in this very thread of poorly written male characters. Tons of examples exist, and if you want to have that conversation I'll be happy to. There are even some great examples in Star Wars we can discuss (I already mentioned Anakin in TPM). This is an Episode 9 discussion thread though, so I fail to see how discussing weaknesses in the writing of the main character is out of bounds. What you are doing here is the soft bigotry of low expectations. That because Rey is a female lead character, she is above criticism and requires you to white knight for her against anyone who dares put forward criticism. This is barely better than the people who just criticize the new movies because they have a female lead and diversity just because they have those things. There is definitely a good number of people like that around, but that doesn't mean all criticism fits into that category.

I like Rey's personality, I wanted her to be a well written character and still do. I want to enjoy Rey's character as much as I did Beatrix Kiddo, Ellen Ripley, Leia Organa (from the OT), Clarice Starling, Wonder Woman (although the movie wasn't good, her character was well done), Furiosa, Dolores Abernathy, Daenerys Targaryen (season 1 to the conquest of Meereen especially), etc. Not to even mention a long list of great female side characters that could be counted. Unfortunately Rey hasn't been a well written character like the names I listed and many more great examples. Disney and the writing team really dropped the ball on this one, and I'm not exactly surprised they did with how market tested and shallow the new movies have been.

 

[Osprey]

What grand Force thing has Rey done? If you look at it, she really hasn't done anything yet.

When we criticize how successful Rey is at everything that she tries, the usual explanation is that the Force enabled her to be successful at each of them. When we criticize how she's that proficient in the Force, the usual response involves downplaying her accomplishments and Force use. It might be different posters arguing each, but it makes it feel like arguing in a circle. Maybe those of you who play up her Force use to explain her accomplishments and those of you who downplay it should argue with each other for a change .

BTW, I think that those who see a double standard in Luke's Gary Sue-ness being tolerated and Rey's Mary Sue-ness being criticized, and, especially, jumping to the conclusion that that double standard points to sexism, are missing a key point. That point is that we simply have higher standards today. We expect characters to be written more believably than they were 35 years ago. We want them to have more flaws and to overcome them and other obstacles. It's not a gender thing. We expect male leads today to be written better than Luke was, as well. It could be argued that Anakin wasn't written much worse than Luke and that Christensen's acting wasn't much worse than Hamill's, but that the bar for both in the early 2000s was a lot higher than it was in the late 70s and early 80s. Similarly, Rey may not be so different than Luke, but we expect more than that today from characters (of each gender). Is it a double standard? In a way, it is, but it's one that all of us apply to all modern movies, since we judge them against modern standards.

 

[Blender]

When we criticize how successful Rey is at everything that she tries, the usual explanation is that the Force enabled her to be successful at each of them. When we criticize how she's that proficient in the Force, the usual response involves downplaying her accomplishments and Force use. It might be different posters arguing each, but it makes it feel like arguing in a circle. Maybe those of you who play up her Force use to explain her accomplishments and those of you who downplay it should argue with each other for a change .

BTW, I think that excusing Rey being a Mary Sue because Luke was a Gary Sue and jumping to the conclusion that the double standard is unfair or even sexist (which, to be clear, I haven't seen you do) misses the fact that we simply have higher standards nowadays. We expect characters to be written more believably than they were 35 years ago. We want them to have more flaws and to overcome them and other obstacles. It's not a gender thing. We expect male leads today to be written better than Luke was, as well. It could be argued that Anakin wasn't written much worse than Luke and that Christensen's acting wasn't much worse than Hamill's, but that the bar for both in the early 2000s was a lot higher than it was in the late 70s and early 80s. Similarly, Rey may not be so different than Luke, but we expect more than that today from characters (of each gender). Is it a double standard? In a way, it is, but it's one that all of us apply to all modern movies, since we judge them against modern standards.

I said this earlier in the thread, Rey isn't actually a Mary Sue, but she does hit most of the criteria for it. Skill wise Luke also probably fits the criteria, but his pretty strong character arc keeps him from being one. Anakin from TPM is 100% a Gary Sue, a child version of course, but he is one. His character in that movie is as bad as early TNG Wesley Crusher for being soulless and perfect. Anakin from AotC and RotS is definitely not one, but there are serious flaws with the dialogue and acting of that character, and his arc is sloppy in places.

 

[x Tame Impala]

I said this earlier in the thread, Rey isn't actually a Mary Sue

What makes you say she isn't? I've listened to a lot of critical analysis and have rewatched 8&9 enough times to where I firmly believe she is one through and through

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

It has been my observation that poorly written unjustified power fantasy characters tend to get more crap for being poorly written unjustified power fantasies if they are aimed at women and/or minorities. So it isn't the character itself, it's the target demo.

This is why Ripley from Aliens is fine while soap opera hunks (housewives) and Tim Allen in Last Man Standing (60+ who secretly remember fondly the good ole days) get crap.

This is why Twilight (virginal tween girls) and 50 Shades (who the eff is this aimed at, and what does this say about us/that demo???) are/were things best known for the odium they inspired, while Hunger Games and Harry Potter get a pass (although I, incredible bias alert, would argue Harry Potter is a well written series that knows how to build characters and tense situations and a good mystery, handle magic that doesn't reduce it to a plot device, and straddles the line between power fantasy and fallibility). The latter two are more general audience than the former.

I'm not a woman, but is there anything about Rey that is specifically aimed at women beyond that Rey is one?

Anyway....

I am not asserting she was actively using the force to make the Falcon flip. I am asserting her connection to the force allowed it to be done effectively

If we're comparing Luke from ANH here...

First, I think the problem isn't that she can fly, it's that she does stuff previously implied to be the stuff super elite awesome McAwesomesauce pilots do, while at the same time the scene is set up as if Rey isn't one of those and we should expect her to struggle. As I recall, the chase opens with a "put it in gear!" gag, and Rey expresses doubt in herself, even if it's doubt that she can fly that piece of junk.

Rather than working from that buildup, the scene does a 180 and has Rey be a really competent flyer. And then the film handwaves it away and never really mentions it again. I think the problem here, vis a vis Rey's overall character, is: Abrams wanted a character the opposite of Luke. Luke wants to leave his sh!t situation, Rey wants to stay. Luke is confident in his flying abilities, Rey isn't. But Abrams doesn't build a character that would naturally fit that, so it's all surface level stuff, which is why this is all so contentious.

But second, and more importantly: the Force in the tench run is a metaphor for Luke's belief in himself. The point it's making is, Luke just has to believe he is capable of greatness and he can succeed. "Let go. Trust your instincts" whispers encouraging father figure. Here, the Force is just a plot device that allows the directors to do something they want to do without working hard in the writers room to get it.

Going back to Harry Potter: it's why the Patronus kind of works despite being a highly advanced spell (we're told) only competent adult wizards can perform: Harry is 13 at the time and not that adept at wizardry. It's a metaphor for hope (which is why it's the spell the child soldiers are practicing when the psycho b***h busts their party) while the Dementors represent despair: the Dementors force Harry to remember that he is alone, in that no adult gives a crap if he lives or dies in the most intimate, familial sense. So the twist tells Harry there is an adult who cares about him (and also, he never has to go back to the orphanage or whatever): that feeling allows him to perform the spell and preserve the hope from the ultimate, all consuming despair.

(I say kinda 'cause then every adult character mentions it afterward as an excuse to praise him/tell him how good he is, which is annoying)

Trivia: Did you know? In Book 1, Hermione panics in the killer plant and it's Ron who calms her enough to set fire to the damn thing. She later solves the logic puzzle. A logic puzzle doesn't work on screen [in a kids film, at least], so it's Ron who panics while Hermione stays calm, with Ron later proving himself in chess. This dynamic switch remained in the films, which is why the characterization of film Ron and book Ron is the most different of any character [maybe Snape, who is portrayed as less of a butthole in the films].

 

[ArGarBarGar]

If we're comparing Luke from ANH here...

First, I think the problem isn't that she can fly, it's that she does stuff previously implied to be the stuff super elite awesome McAwesomesauce pilots do, while at the same time the scene is set up as if Rey isn't one of those and we should expect her to struggle. As I recall, the chase opens with a "put it in gear!" gag, and Rey expresses doubt in herself, even if it's doubt that she can fly that piece of junk.

Rather than working from that buildup, the scene does a 180 and has Rey be a really competent flyer. And then the film handwaves it away and never really mentions it again. I think the problem here, vis a vis Rey's overall character, is: Abrams wanted a character the opposite of Luke. Luke wants to leave his sh!t situation, Rey wants to stay. Luke is confident in his flying abilities, Rey isn't. But Abrams doesn't build a character that would naturally fit that, so it's all surface level stuff, which is why this is all so contentious.

Second, again as I recall, the on screen justification is one line in the middle of a tense chase scene, which is simultaneously a gag ("The piece of junk will do!") which is simultaneously a call-back to Luke's line in ANH/the fondness of the Millennium Falcon. It's a tonal mess, you're split between fear for the characters, amusement at the joke and nostalgia at the Falcon.

But third, most importantly: the Force in the tench run is a metaphor for Luke's belief in himself. The point it's making is, Luke just has to believe he is capable of greatness and he can succeed. "Let go. Trust your instincts" whispers encouraging father figure. Here, the Force is just a plot device that allows the directors to do something they want to do without working hard in the writers room to get it.

I wholeheartedly disagree with most of this. I have discussed my perspective on it multiple times so I don't feel like ONCE AGAIN explaining my position and how I observe Rey's arc, but I do not at all see how you can get these things from the movie.

Also I do not know what "put it in gear!" gag you are talking about. There is a moment where Rey says "you can do this, you can do this" which is used as a lighthearted moment because Finn says the same thing seconds earlier, and the Falcon hits a building and runs aground a couple times before the initial takeoff, but that doesn't really show incompetence that would need to be developed over the course of the movie, or even in the scene.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

and the Falcon hits a building and runs aground a couple times before the initial takeoff,

That's what I'm referring to.

but that doesn't really show incompetence that would need to be developed over the course of the movie, or even in the scene.

I said the scene is set up so we would expect her to struggle. She openly expressed doubt, then fudges the takeoff. The issue isn't she can do it, but the set up doesn't perfectly click with what happens later in the scene.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

I said the scene is set up so we would expect her to struggle. She openly expressed doubt, then fudges the takeoff. The issue isn't she can do it, but the set up doesn't perfectly click with what happens later in the scene.

It seems to foreshadow the fact that Rey has some kind of power she isn't aware of.

 

[Osprey]

But second, and more importantly: the Force in the tench run is a metaphor for Luke's belief in himself. The point it's making is, Luke just has to believe he is capable of greatness and he can succeed. "Let go. Trust your instincts" whispers encouraging father figure. Here, the Force is just a plot device that allows the directors to do something they want to do without working hard in the writers room to get it.

That's a great observation. In the original trilogy, the Force was a metaphor for belief in oneself, as you said. If there was any doubt about that with regards to the trench run, it was almost spelled out in the sequel, when Yoda scolded Luke for not believing that he could lift the X-Wing. Luke also initially failed to retrieve his lightsaber in the ice cave. In all three cases and others (such as when he lifted C3P0 in the Ewok village), he had to close his eyes and concentrate to use the Force. It did not come effortlessly to Luke. He had to concentrate and believe that he could use the Force first.

Fast forward to this new trilogy and the Force isn't a metaphor for anything. It's a superhero ability (which, I think, is no coincidence, considering what's popular in movies today) that Rey is able to use without closing her eyes, without concentrating and without even knowing that it exists. Using the Force comes so effortlessly to her that she doesn't even realize that she's using it. In this trilogy, the Force is little more than a tool and an excuse to allow certain characters (Rey, Leia, Luke) to do superhuman things that look cool onscreen, usually with little substantiation of how they have that ability. The symbolism is gone and, with it, the classical mythological feeling of the original trilogy.

BTW, if it's sexist to criticize how Rey is successful at everything that she tries, isn't it just as sexist to explain that she owes most of her success to something else? What if it were a man behind her successes, rather than the Force? It seems hypocritical to me to charge others with being "afraid of a strong female character" while simultaneously arguing that that female character is that strong only because she's getting a lot of help.

 

[Tawnos]

Do you agree that it's at the very least a legitimate criticism that there is a lot in these movies that's reliant on a high level of interpretation?

Some fans are ready, willing, and able, to fill in the blanks that JJ and RJ left in their respective movies. You seem to be one of them. That's fine. It has to be. There isn't an objective measure of film quality, but both of these movies haven't done enough in my eyes to make the characters and general plot believable or captivating.

I agree that there's a lot open to/reliant on interpretation, particularly in TLJ. However, I don't view that as a legitimate criticism.

On the other hand, I think the fact that there's basically NO room for interpretation in Marvel movies is the fundamental reason I'm always underwhelmed by them.

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

BTW, if it's sexist to criticize how Rey is successful at everything that she tries, isn't it just as sexist to explain that she owes most of her success to something else? What if it were a man behind her successes, rather than the Force? It seems hypocritical to me to charge others with being "afraid of a strong female character" while simultaneously arguing that that female character is that strong only because she's getting a lot of help.

 

[Garo]

Yep, we are now using t-shirts.

I loved TLJ, but I'll damned if there's ever a movie that is more useless to discuss