Movies: Star Wars - Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker

[ArGarBarGar]

She had an arc: she wanted to find her family and by the end of TLJ she doesn't care about that anymore.

What is she supposed to do? Lament the fact that her parents were garbage and abandoned her?

TFA: Obsessed with the past, joins the resistance looking to be a part of the same stories she learned about growing up (It's all true, all of it yay)

TLK: Confronted with the fact your heroes aren't always what they are chalked up to be, is confronted with the idea of abandoning the past entirely, but decides to move on from both abandonment and obsession and form her own story based on what she has actually experienced.

It may not be the arc you want (are we looking for Han in ANH?) but there is a development of the character, there.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

What is she supposed to do? Lament the fact that her parents were garbage and abandoned her?

It's about writing. If you write a three act story, don't have all character threads resolved by the end of the second act. The second act usually ends on a down note, TLJ ends on a very positive note despite the story telling us otherwise (the Resistance is down to a handful of people and they have one ship left).

 

[Blender]

What is she supposed to do? Lament the fact that her parents were garbage and abandoned her?

TFA: Obsessed with the past, joins the resistance looking to be a part of the same stories she learned about growing up (It's all true, all of it yay)

TLK: Confronted with the fact your heroes aren't always what they are chalked up to be, is confronted with the idea of abandoning the past entirely, but decides to move on from both abandonment and obsession and form her own story based on what she has actually experienced.

It may not be the arc you want (are we looking for Han in ANH?) but there is a development of the character, there.

In TFA she doesn't actually join the resistance until the very end of the movie, when she is sent to find Luke and decides to be a part of the fight. Earlier she does commit herself to helping the resistance by delivering BB8 to them, but she is determined to just do that and leave, she doesn't actually want to join them. She shows more interest in a junker/smuggler job with Han Solo than she does with being a part of the resistance. Her actions in TFA are almost entirely driven by the decisions and actions of others or happenstance (BB8 just happens to be over a ridge from her home as one example, which leads to other trying to kill/capture her, which pushes her into stealing the Falcon, etc.). For most of the movie the plot is driving her, not the other way around.

In TLJ at least, far more of the plot revolves around decisions she decides to make, but even some of that is cheapened quite a bit by the reveal that Snoke has been manipulating Ben and her the entire time.

None of that is character development, since she hasn't really changed. Other characters are making decisions and performing actions, and she is reacting to them. There is no fundamental internal growth or change in her character. Fundamentally she is the same person at the start of TFA as she is at the end of TLJ. Don't mistake external changes for internal character development. Her character is very poorly written as a main character, and it's a shame really since there is tons of potential there.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

It's about writing. If you write a three act story, don't have all character threads resolved by the end of the second act. The second act usually ends on a down note, TLJ ends on a very positive note despite the story telling us otherwise (the Resistance is down to a handful of people and they have one ship left).

Are you saying there is nowhere left for these characters to grow and change?

Finishing previous threads does not mean new ones can't grow, even from things that happened in the previous two movies.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Are you saying there is nowhere left for these characters to grow and change?

Finishing previous threads does not mean new ones can't grow, even from things that happened in the previous two movies.

No I'm saying that, at the end of TLJ, the characters are "complete", they have all overcome what they were struggling with. This is why people say it doesn't feel like a trilogy: in a trilogy, the second act concludes with the main characters at their lowest, this is how you get your audience invested into seeing the conclusion. TLJ ends with the good guys triumphant (stark contrast with ESB), so why would anyone be curious about IX at this point, what is there for me to wonder about.

You know all those stupid videos about "who are Rey's parents?" we got between TFA and TLJ? That's because TFA set things up for the future, it left important character questions unanswered. TLJ does not, which isn't great for a second act. They can (in fact they have to even) introduce new key plot elements at the start of IX in order to give the movie momentum when that's normally the job of the second act.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

No I'm saying that, at the end of TLJ, the characters are "complete", they have all overcome what they were struggling with. This is why people say it doesn't feel like a trilogy: in a trilogy, the second act concludes with the main characters at their lowest, this is how you get your audience invested into seeing the conclusion. TLJ ends with the good guys triumphant (stark contrast with ESB), so why would anyone be curious about IX at this point, what is there for me to wonder about.

You know all those stupid videos about "who are Rey's parents?" we got between TFA and TLJ? That's because TFA set things up for the future, it left important character questions unanswered. TLJ does not, which isn't great for a second act. They can (in fact they have to even) introduce new key plot elements at the start of IX in order to give the movie momentum when that's normally the job of the second act.

huh?

- Rey is still partially in tune with the dark side and can be influenced by it
- There is still the connection between the main "good" Rey and the main "bad" Kylo
- The resistance is crippled and the First Order is still strong

Thats just the major ones.

This trilogy is no more "wrapped up" after 2 movies than the original was. At the end of both you have the protagonists on the run but not defeated and the antagonists having the upper hand overall

 

[ArGarBarGar]

I think it is a mistake to characterize a character as "complete" or "incomplete", because it implies there is nowhere to go from there and there is no growth.

And I disagree that the "job" of the second act is to provide momentum for the third (even though I think there is enough there with the main conflict to bring someone back for the third based on the curiosity of what will happen next). Sure there were two things related to the characters to wonder about with the OT (Luke's father being Vader and what he would do about it and Han being captured by Boba Fett), but that doesn't mean it is the way all Star Wars Trilogies should be developed or organized. If you don't feel like you are interested in what could happen or what the story has progressed to, that is a different conversation than saying it from a perspective of "this is wrong."

"What is there for me to wonder about?"

How does the Resistance move on to fight the First Order at this point, what will happen between Rey and Kylo Ren, what will Finn and Poe's roles be, will Luke come back as a force ghost, what does Rey intend to do with the Jedi texts, how will this fight even end, etc.

Do you think the story is just over at this point?

 

[Do Make Say Think]

huh?

- Rey is still partially in tune with the dark side and can be influenced by it
- There is still the connection between the main "good" Rey and the main "bad" Kylo
- The resistance is crippled and the First Order is still strong

Thats just the major ones.

This trilogy is no more "wrapped up" after 2 movies than the original was. At the end of both you have the protagonists on the run but not defeated and the antagonists having the upper hand overall

- Rey's primary struggle was with her origins. Dealt with, she is now The Last Jedi.
- Kylo's primary struggle was with feeling attraction for the light side. Dealt with, is now the Supreme Leader.
- The connection was manufactured by Snoke. Dealt with, is he now dead.

Audiences know how movies and stories work, telling the audience "the final confrontation is coming" isn't going to keep people interested because we all expect a third movie that would conclude the story. When people say it doesn't feel like a trilogy this is exactly what they mean: all the important questions have been answered, the characters are, for all intents and purposes, finished by the end of TLJ.

How the good guys win isn't an important question because we know they will.

I think it is a mistake to characterize a character as "complete" or "incomplete", because it implies there is nowhere to go from there and there is no growth.

And I disagree that the "job" of the second act is to provide momentum for the third (even though I think there is enough there with the main conflict to bring someone back for the third based on the curiosity of what will happen next). Sure there were two things related to the characters to wonder about with the OT (Luke's father being Vader and what he would do about it and Han being captured by Boba Fett), but that doesn't mean it is the way all Star Wars Trilogies should be developed or organized. If you don't feel like you are interested in what could happen or what the story has progressed to, that is a different conversation than saying it from a perspective of "this is wrong."

"What is there for me to wonder about?"

How does the Resistance move on to fight the First Order at this point, what will happen between Rey and Kylo Ren, what will Finn and Poe's roles be, will Luke come back as a force ghost, what does Rey intend to do with the Jedi texts, how will this fight even end, etc.

Do you think the story is just over at this point?

The characters are complete because the challenges that we were told and shown defined them have been overcome. They can still grow as a character but that will require new key plot elements be introduced in the final act and that's not an effective way to tell a three-part story.

Again, this all started because a lot of people say it doesn't feel like a trilogy so far. That's because TLJ does nothing to set up a third movie except "here's the good guys and the bad guys and they will fight!". The story isn't over, but there's nothing left for the characters to discover based on what we know at the end of TLJ.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

If you say so. I wasn't even wanting to get involved in a discussion about this because my original post on the issue was just a joke.

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

I still believe IX will take place years later, leaving them time to have anything they need to have happen to happen in order for the movie to make sense

 

[Osprey]

None of that is character development, since she hasn't really changed. Other characters are making decisions and performing actions, and she is reacting to them. There is no fundamental internal growth or change in her character. Fundamentally she is the same person at the start of TFA as she is at the end of TLJ. Don't mistake external changes for internal character development. Her character is very poorly written as a main character, and it's a shame really since there is tons of potential there.

I agree. At this point in the original trilogy, Luke had shed much of his naivete and Han had learned to think of and care for people besides himself. The growth of those two main characters underpinned that trilogy. In contrast, Rey is more or less the same spunky, confident, independent lass that she was when we first met her. Even Finn has had more character growth than her, going from a cowardly deserter to almost sacrificing his life for his friends. Rey has learned the ways of the Force, but that's skill set growth, not character growth. She's also made a few friends, but she hasn't had to rely on them, partly because she's so much better at everything than they are. The same character that we met on Jakku just has a few friends and a new skill to use. I think that the desire to have a strong, independent female character from the very beginning gave the writers very little room to develop the character in a meaningful way.

I still believe IX will take place years later, leaving them time to have anything they need to have happen to happen in order for the movie to make sense

Originally, I was going to express doubt about that, but, now that I've thought about it, you could be right. It would make sense in a few ways to set Ep9 at least a few years into the future. It would allow for the Resistance to build its numbers back up some. It would also allow the writers to fast forward Rey to being a Jedi Knight, like Luke in RotJ. As much as they've rushed her training already, having her go from first picking up a lightsaber to being a Jedi Knight in a matter of weeks would probably be too ridiculous even for them. They could also make her look quite different and cooler, like Luke in RotJ, and sell more toys. Finally, it's easier to see where the rumor of splitting it into two films might've come from if they're jumping ahead several years, because it could be hard to fit all of the story that that would require into one film.

 

[Blender]

I agree. At this point in the original trilogy, Luke had shed much of his naivete and Han had learned to think of and care for people besides himself. The growth of those two main characters underpinned that trilogy. In contrast, Rey is more or less the same spunky, confident, independent lass that she was when we first met her. Even Finn has had more character growth than her, going from a cowardly deserter to almost sacrificing his life for his friends. Rey has learned the ways of the Force, but that's skill set growth, not character growth. She's also made a few friends, but she hasn't had to rely on them, partly because she's so much better at everything than they are. The same character that we met on Jakku just has a few friends and a new skill to use. I think that the desire to have a strong, independent female character from the very beginning gave the writers very little room to develop the character in a meaningful way.

It's not like she really struggled to learn the ways of the force or how to fight with a lightsaber either, she just sort of learned those skills right away as the plot demanded. The skills don't feel earned. Her character is pretty much a mix of Anakin from The Phantom Menace and Legolas from The Lord of the Rings. She isn't a perfect fit for the Mary Sue/Gary Stu trope, but she fits a lot of the criteria of it and it's a big sign of weak writing when this is your main character. It really seems like they put the cart before the horse with her character. They had a set of traits they wanted Rey to have, but instead of starting the character from a different point and developing her into that character, they just inserted the character with all of those traits into the very start of the movie.

I think they have missed out on a ton of potential with her character, because at her core she is a likeable character that you can sympathize with and want to follow on her journey. She really should have started from a different place, something like due to her abandonment issues she has latched onto an authority figure on Jakku who has her doing unscrupulous things to survive in the harsh environment. Stealing, cheating, etc. for some kind of gangster boss, but at her core she knows this is wrong but it's the only way she knows how to survive and it's how she fits in. Then she runs into BB8 and maybe Finn which gives her this opportunity to do something with her life for a better purpose than she has been living, but along the way because of adversity she struggles with overcoming her past and the way she used to do things because she survived so long doing things that way. The temptations from the dark side would be so much more appealing to her because she was already involved in a shady world, and it would make refusing those temptations so much more powerful in the same way Luke overcoming his anger and hatred in ROTJ is so powerful. By the time you get to some point in the third movie, you would have spent a lot of time developing this character into the strong, noble hero with a great skill set that you want, and the payoff would be so much stronger because you followed her journey and struggles to get there.

If they had given her some kind of sword instead of a staff also, it would easily forgive her later skill with a lightsaber, as while sword and lightsabers aren't directly the same, they involve similar mechanics that could be adapted with less training than otherwise required. The piloting and repair skills she instantly has are beyond belief, and could have been explored and explained if they had made any effort to do so. Her piloting skills are like Anakin's in TPM, they seem to come from nowhere. She even says as much in the movie. A scene of her actually repairing things would have went a long way to making that skill more plausible, even better if they had just shown her working on the Falcon early in the movie.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Or you know, you could just go along for the ride and accept that Rey, like Luke, has plot armour.

But no, instead It's the is usual "I can accept when I am told a man is good at something but I need to be shown that the woman is good at it, her saying she is a pilot and living alone in a downed robot doesn't satisfy my arbitrary threshold for suspension of disbelief"

It took me a while to see it but the lengths people go to to justify their reticence of having a strong woman in a lead role is pretty amazing. And yes, I know Rey is pretty boring as a character, just like Luke was even.

 

[Blender]

Or you know, you could just go along for the ride and accept that Rey, like Luke, has plot armour.

But no, instead It's the is usual "I can accept when I am told a man is good at something but I need to be shown that the woman is good at it, her saying she is a pilot and living alone in a downed robot doesn't satisfy my arbitrary threshold for suspension of disbelief"

It took me a while to see it but the lengths people go to to justify their reticence of having a strong woman in a lead role is pretty amazing. And yes, I know Rey is pretty boring as a character, just like Luke was even.

Uh, no. There are lots of great examples of great female leads, but Rey so far hasn't been one of them. All criticism of her character isn't sexism, and excusing weak writing because of a character's gender is no better than people who only criticize her due to her gender. There most definitely are people who are critical of her for that sole reason.

Luke doesn't have the greatest character arc, but it is better written than Rey. A lot of that comes from the fact that the character is just straight up borrowed from other sources, as most of A New Hope is. There isn't much original as far as story goes in that entire movie, it's just presented in an original way. If you read my post as well, I didn't even demand that they show us how she can do everything, even some dialogue would have helped, but we didn't even get that in most cases. Showing is always better than telling though, and informing attributes is always lazy writing and often leads to problems if they aren't followed up properly. Luke has explanations for what he's good at in universe, and he's not fantastic at everything he does.

I also have no idea where your plot armor comment comes from, since I haven't seen anyone demand that she die. Of course she is the hero of the story and she is going to live, that doesn't mean her journey needs to be poorly written.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Uh, no. There are lots of great examples of great female leads, but Rey so far hasn't been one of them. All criticism of her character isn't sexism, and excusing weak writing because of a character's gender is no better than people who only criticize her due to her gender. There most definitely are people who are critical of her for that sole reason.

Luke doesn't have the greatest character arc, but it is better written than Rey. A lot of that comes from the fact that the character is just straight up borrowed from other sources, as most of A New Hope is. There isn't much original as far as story goes in that entire movie, it's just presented in an original way. If you read my post as well, I didn't even demand that they show us how she can do everything, even some dialogue would have helped, but we didn't even get that in most cases. Showing is always better than telling though, and informing attributes is always lazy writing and often leads to problems if they aren't followed up properly. Luke has explanations for what he's good at in universe, and he's not fantastic at everything he does.

I also have no idea where your plot armor comment comes from, since I haven't seen anyone demand that she die. Of course she is the hero of the story and she is going to live, that doesn't mean who journey needs to be poorly written.

She says she's a pilot, she knows how to fly.

She owns a speeder and lives alone in a ruined AT-AT walker in the middle of nowhere, she knows how to fix stuff.

But that, for some reason, doesn't satisfy people. When you start to wonder "why?" then you'll see my point.

 

[Blender]

She says she's a pilot, she knows how to fly.

She owns a speeder and lives alone in a ruined AT-AT walker in the middle of nowhere, she knows how to fix stuff.

But that, for some reason, doesn't satisfy people. When you start to wonder "why?" then you'll see my point.

I have no problem that she is a pilot, I have a problem with her being an amazing one with no explanation. After they escape on the Millenium Falcon she even says outright that she has "no idea" how she flew that way. The plot demanded a high speed acrobatic chase scene and suddenly she was an expert fighter pilot who could deliver. That's weak writing. Contrast that with Luke, where there is a line in the movie an multiple references to the fact that he had flight experience where he was practicing to be a fighter pilot because he wanted to be one.

She knows how to take things apart, we are never told or shown that she is an expert mechanic. I have no problem accepting some level of technical competency in this area, but it's completely unbelievable that she is not only better at repairs than Han and Chewbacca, but that she also expertly knows all the systems of the Millennium Falcon and how to repair them better than the people who owned it for decades.

Your post also doesn't even touch on my far more important criticisms of her character beyond her skills, which could be much more easily forgiven if everything else was well done.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

I have no problem that she is a pilot, I have a problem with her being an amazing one with no explanation. After they escape on the Millenium Falcon she even says outright that she has "no idea" how she flew that way. The plot demanded a high speed acrobatic chase scene and suddenly she was an expert fighter pilot who could deliver. That's weak writing. Contrast that with Luke, where there is a line in the movie an multiple references to the fact that he had flight experience where he was practicing to be a fighter pilot because he wanted to be one.

She knows how to take things apart, we are never told or shown that she is an expert mechanic. I have no problem accepting some level of technical competency in this area, but it's completely unbelievable that she is not only better at repairs than Han and Chewbacca, but that she also expertly knows all the systems of the Millennium Falcon and how to repair them better than the people who owned it for decades.

Your post also doesn't even touch on my far more important criticisms of her character beyond her skills, which could be much more easily forgiven if everything else was well done.

There is no real point in debating the merits of her character, it is non-existent. I'd argue Luke isn't much deeper: he is a nice guy who wants to do the right thing, token white guy really.

As far as her being amazing, Luke is a farm boy who likes to shoot womprats who gets into a jet fighter, coordinates with an entire squadron IN SPACE, fights off multiple trained military pilots, and aims better than a freaking computer.

Case closed.

 

[Blender]

There is no real point in debating the merits of her character, it is non-existent. I'd argue Luke isn't much deeper: he is a nice guy who wants to do the right thing, token white guy really.

As far as her being amazing, Luke is a farm boy who likes to shoot womprats who gets into a jet fighter, coordinates with an entire squadron IN SPACE, fights off multiple trained military pilots, and aims better than a freaking computer.

Case closed.

I'm not going to defend this strawman you've put up of Luke being a perfectly written character, because I never made that argument and I don't even agree with it. Luke, especially in ANH, isn't an amazing character, and part of that comes from being lifted from other sources and just adapted to this story. Luke being the best pilot definitely stretches believability, and it's a valid criticism of his character that has been made for years. That is really the only thing he's the best at in ANH though, and he relies on the expertise of Obi-Wan, Han, Chewbacca, Leia, C-3P0, R2-D2, etc. throughout the movie as needed. He is a generic nice guy who wants to do the right thing, but Obi-Wan is his moral compass. Rey is the best pilot, the best mechanic, the best swordsman, the best force user, the nice character and the moral compass, the bravest, etc. Even with all of that, my biggest gripe with the character isn't her abilities, it's her lack of proper character arc. Luke most definitely has one of those over the three movies, as does Han Solo. Rey over two movies has had no proper arc.

The original trilogy is far from perfect, with ROTJ not even being a great movie (mediocre at best), but what it did do vastly better than the JJ movies so far has been to get you emotionally invested in the main characters, their development, and their journey. The JJ movies have mostly market tested cardboard cutout characters that are pretty difficult to be invested in. So far I'd say Finn has had the closest thing to a proper character arc.

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

There is no real point in debating the merits of her character, it is non-existent. I'd argue Luke isn't much deeper: he is a nice guy who wants to do the right thing, token white guy really.

As far as her being amazing, Luke is a farm boy who likes to shoot womprats who gets into a jet fighter, coordinates with an entire squadron IN SPACE, fights off multiple trained military pilots, and aims better than a freaking computer.

Case closed.

This is just awful. The if you hate her you are sexist defense is so tiresome. Luke flew around Tatooine shooting Womp Rats. Him shooting better than the computer, which is foreshadowed in the aforementioned Womp Rat conversation, is a central theme to the movie. It wasn't just showing how great Luke, contrast that to Rey knowing how to do a Jedi mind trick despite the fact she wouldn't know that it even exists let alone able to do it

Moyer and Joseph Campbell briefly talk about how big the trench run scene is when Luke shuts off his targeting computer

 

[Blender]

This is just awful. The if you hate her you are sexist defense is so tiresome. Luke flew around Tatooine shooting Womp Rats. Him shooting better than the computer, which is foreshadowed in the aforementioned Womp Rat conversation, is a central theme to the movie. It wasn't just showing how great Luke, contrast that to Rey knowing how to do a Jedi mind trick despite the fact she wouldn't know that it even exists let alone able to do it

Moyer and Joseph Campbell briefly talk about how big the trench run scene is when Luke shuts off his targeting computer

I'll be clear again, although I have already said this a few times, I don't hate her. She is a very likeable character, but she is a fundamentally flawed character from a storytelling perspective. That is what makes this such a shame, because if she had proper character development and a proper character arc she would be a great lead for a movie. Likeability is only one aspect of a good character though, and it's the only one the writers did well.

 

[x Tame Impala]

Critiques against Rey=Sexism

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Him shooting better than a computer has everything to do with the force guiding the way, nothing to do with his ability to shoot vermin back at home.

Him not being a complete joke in a ship he never flew before had everything to do with the "I shot womp rats in my T-16." It's just a line to give justification for him even being out there despite never showing anything.

It's the same concept with Rey. She is able to do an insane flip because of force interjection, and she mentions she has flown before as a line to give justification for her being able to fly the Falcon at all.

Also is it insane to think that Rey may have learned about Jedi mind tricks from either learning about the rebellion and Luke Skywalker or through her and Kylo Ren sharing a mind (so to speak)? The whole "fanboy/girl learns that the legends are real and tries things out" thing seemed like a fundamental part of her character in TFA. I can't think of any Star Wars fan that wouldn't try every single trick in the book if they were told that Star Wars was real by someone from the stories.

 

[MadDevil]

Exceptionally talented/skilled people are sometimes quicker to learn or be naturally good at certain things. I don't think Force powers are like a skill tree where you have to earn so much XP to level up. To me, Rey being exceptionally good at repairing things and piloting is no different than Anakin Skywalker in TPM.

 

[Blender]

Exceptionally talented/skilled people are sometimes quicker to learn or be naturally good at certain things. I don't think Force powers are like a skill tree where you have to earn so much XP to level up. To me, Rey being exceptionally good at repairing things and piloting is no different than Anakin Skywalker in TPM.

Anakin Skywalker in TPM is a horribly written character. He's pretty close to a child version of a Gary Stu.

Also, Anakin in AotC and RotS is both shown and we're told is learning and progressing in his abilities, and that is with us being told in TPM that he has the potential to be the most powerful jedi of them all. Every jedi in the prequel trilogy requires years of study and practice to improve their skills.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

I would also say the old Jedi order (at least the one in place at the time of the PT) isn't necessarily meant to be looked at as a good example of what to do considering their hubris and incompetence led to their greatest pupil jumping at the chance to betray them and help murder all of them.

I wish Lucas did a good job of actually demonstrating the pitfalls with the previous order as it seemed he intended to.