Movies: Star Wars - Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker

[HanSolo]

I still enjoy TFA even though I am aware of some of its flaws...my complaints are different than most. It's not the best but it's still, in my mind, far more watchable than any of the prequels and most of Rogue One.

The Last Jedi I haven't been able to bring myself to watch it again. There's some decent stuff there but the longer I ruminate on it, the more I get pissed off by the wasted opportunities to expand the lore JJ established. Rose's entire arch, including the culmination of stopping Finn's sacrifice...I may be in the minority as someone who actually likes Finn as a character. Sure he's a bit too much of a goofball but I think ultimately he's a good character. But when Rian starts showing him in this heroic moment of willing to sacrifice himself to save everyone else and then to cut it short just pisses me off. Finn's entire character flaw is his fear of the First Order. To have him make the ultimate sacrifice would be the best way for him to go. It's like Rian thinks it's just enough that Finn was willing to do it and almost did. But if he had actually gone through with it it would have dealt such a heavy emotional impact to the movie that could have masked or at least distract away from the other flaws throughout.

Anyway. Disappointed as I am in TLJ, I am cautiously optimistic to see what JJ does now that the need to pander to nostalgia is more or less dead. Maybe he won't be able to but I think TFA, despite its flaws, showed that between Rian and JJ, the latter understands the atmosphere and spirit of Star Wars better than the former. I'm hoping it will be a success and I guess I'm also optimistic that he had plenty of Last Jedi and Force Awakens backlash to guide him away from certain mistakes.

 

[Richard]

First star wars movie I won't see opening day, or even weekend. I'll wait and see what people think. Might be a wait for premium channel movie4

 

[Osprey]

The Last Jedi I haven't been able to bring myself to watch it again. There's some decent stuff there but the longer I ruminate on it, the more I get pissed off by the wasted opportunities to expand the lore JJ established. Rose's entire arch, including the culmination of stopping Finn's sacrifice...I may be in the minority as someone who actually likes Finn as a character. Sure he's a bit too much of a goofball but I think ultimately he's a good character. But when Rian starts showing him in this heroic moment of willing to sacrifice himself to save everyone else and then to cut it short just pisses me off. Finn's entire character flaw is his fear of the First Order. To have him make the ultimate sacrifice would be the best way for him to go. It's like Rian thinks it's just enough that Finn was willing to do it and almost did. But if he had actually gone through with it it would have dealt such a heavy emotional impact to the movie that could have masked or at least distract away from the other flaws throughout.

I would say that Finn's biggest character flaw is just being a coward, in general. He abandons the First Order and then tries to run away from the Resistance twice, if I'm not mistaken. While, on the surface, it appears poetic for him to finally do something as brave as sacrifice his life, it doesn't seem at all believable because he really hasn't undergone any character development. He keeps running away from things and then, all of sudden, he runs into something for once... and why, because listening to Rose complain about social justice on Canto Bight changed him from a selfish to a selfless person literally overnight?

I think that Finn inexplicably deciding to sacrifice his life wasn't written in so much for his character arc and redemption as it was to make Rose and, by extension, Johnson seem smarter. After all, my feeling is that Rose is a mouthpiece of sorts for Johnson, so that much of his soap-boxing to the audience is done through her. Finn risking his life was meant to confirm how true and transformative Rose's/Johnson's message on Canto Bight was and Rose's intervention at the last moment was put in so that she/he could do just a little more preaching.

 

[HanSolo]

I would say that Finn's biggest character flaw is just being a coward, in general. He abandons the First Order and then tries to run away from the Resistance twice, if I'm not mistaken. While, on the surface, it appears poetic for him to finally do something as brave as sacrifice his life, it doesn't seem at all believable because he really hasn't undergone any character development. He keeps running away from things and then, all of sudden, he runs into something for once... and why, because listening to Rose complain about social justice on Canto Bight changed him from a selfish to a selfless person literally overnight?

I think that Finn inexplicably deciding to sacrifice his life wasn't written in so much for his character arc and redemption as it was to make Rose and, by extension, Johnson seem smarter. After all, my feeling is that Rose is a mouthpiece of sorts for Johnson, so that much of his soap-boxing to the audience is done through her. Finn risking his life was meant to confirm how true and transformative Rose's/Johnson's message on Canto Bight was and Rose's intervention at the last moment was put in so that she/he could do just a little more preaching.

No I think Finn showed the character developed towards the end of TFA but was wiped away with a dirty piece of toilet paper by Rian in TLJ's opening act when he tried to ditch the Resistance.

In TFA he starts off unwilling to kill for the First Order. Defects, gets stuck on Jakku and his only instinct up until Maz's castle is to get away. It takes seeing his friend kidnapped for him to develop a more heroic purpose. As soon as he gets with the Resistance after the Maz's castle battle, his only instinct is "I need to save Rey". He helps the Resistance infiltrate Starkiller Base and in the process he tries to save Rey. Then when Kylo knocks Rey out he takes up a lightsaber to defend her. Against a guy that through visual cues in Finn's very first scene was established as someone Finn was deathly afraid of. He nearly died trying to protect her.

That's why when I see stuff like "Finn is a useless character" I'm always confused because he did go on a critical journey of overcoming his cowardice in TFA.

But as soon as he wakes up in TLJ, he's right back to being a coward again. And I can understand if you could say maybe his run in with Kylo gave him the willies again and that retconning could be redeemed if he actually sacrificed himself. But as you said, all it ended up being was a moment for Rose, and a stupid one at that.

But don't get me wrong, that's not my only gripe with TLJ's story. The refusal to expand on Snoke's backstory and filling the gaps narratively between ep6 and ep7, Canto Bight (which could have been cool if it made more sense narratively and wasn't a shoehorned attempt to be socially relevant), and the entire Poe vs. Holdo drama really leave a sour taste in my mouth. Especially the latter. I really like Poe as a character mostly out of Issac's performance rather than the writing. There is zero reason for Holdo to withhold the plan from Poe. I don't even mind the concept of a battleship space chase/attempted escape. But the entire conflict between Holdo and Poe feels narratively written just to give Poe something to do.

Point is I still think there's potential with these characters and the plotline but Rian failed miserably at expanding on what JJ established. Through its own simplicity, TFA handed Rian a nearly blank slate to expand and create a whole new adventure and story and he did next to nothing with the opportunity. Instead of fleshing the villain out, explaining how the galaxy found itself back at war again, indicating where things may be going narratively, he opts instead to deliver ham fisted messages about war profiteering and income inequality (stuff like this is supposed to be demonstrated more subtly through the environment rather than overt messages. Even the prequels did this better.) While doing nothing with the story other than making Kylo the main baddie and stalling the events of this new war. I gave TFA as many passes as I did from a narrative perspective because I figured TLJ would fill in the gaps intentionally left behind. And Rian did nothing with them.

So I'm hoping that JJ can come back and fill in where Rian failed in a way that doesn't feel shoehorned in to account for the lack of any progress after a full length second chapter.

 

[johnjm22]

Finn is a great character in concept; a defected Stormtrooper. That's a good angle to take from a writing perspective. It's something we haven't really seen in a Star Wars movie before, and you can do a lot with it story-wise.

The problem is, they don't do anything with it. Instead he's a cowardly comic relief character that suddenly becomes brave when the script randomly wants him to be. His affection for Ray is unjustified.

 

[Osprey]

Finn is a great character in concept; a defected Stormtrooper. That's a good angle to take from a writing perspective. It's something we haven't really seen in a Star Wars movie before, and you can do a lot with it story-wise.

The problem is, they don't do anything with it. Instead he's a cowardly comic relief character that suddenly becomes brave when the script randomly wants him to be.

I agree. A defected Stormtrooper would've had a lot of potential. What we got, instead, was a Stormtrooper who deserted, which is a less interesting premise. It would've made for a better character, IMO, if he had left the First Order because he disagreed with it, realized that he was on the wrong side and wanted to join the good guys. Instead, we were given the impression that he simply got cold feet suddenly and was trying to get as far away from any conflict as he could (i.e. just a cowardly deserter). What's ironic is that the way that he deserted took a lot of bravery, which is completely at odds with the cowardice that compelled him to desert. Deserters don't go out the front door, in full sight of everyone; they sneak out the back door when no one is looking.

I wonder if it would've been better if Poe had been the Stormtrooper who defected. That might've felt more natural. He's very principle-driven, so his defection would've seemed sincere, and his combination of bravery and recklessness is very Stormtrooper-like. It would explain his quirks. Instead, his recklessness and disrespect for authority just make you wonder how he ever managed to graduate through the Resistance ranks in the first place.

His affection for Ray is unjustified.

Good characters are naturally drawn to Mary Sues. They can't resist it.

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

I wonder if it would've been better if Poe had been the Stormtrooper who defected. That might've felt more natural. He's very principle-driven, so his defection would seem sincere, and his combination of bravery and recklessness is very Stormtrooper-like. It would explain his quirks. Instead, his recklessness and disrespect for authority (especially female authority) just makes you wonder how he ever managed to graduate through the Resistance ranks in the first place.

Then he would basically be Han Solo

Now that I said that im shocked JJ didnt do that

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Finn fights Kylo Ren to defend Rey. He likes Rey and through the entire movie his motivations center around trying to protect her and himself.

He tries to leave the Resistance in TLJ to find and protect Rey, and is then challenged by Rose which leads to the adventure on Canto Bight.

Through his time with Rose and encountering the selfish character DJ he experiences a change and determines there are things worth fighting for that don't involve selfish reasons. This is why he is willing to sacrifice his life to save the Resistance.

It was a pretty simple arc, and fitting with Star Wars.

I'm also really glad we get to rehash the Holdo/Poe conflict for the umpteenth time and how Holdo should have "just told him the plan" and whatnot.

 

[Osprey]

Then he would basically be Han Solo

He already is. He's a good looking, charming, hot shot pilot who likes going rogue. There's no escaping that he's a rip off of Han Solo with the way that Abrams and Johnson have written him. It could've maybe been less blatant and more interesting, though, if he had been given a believable backstory (and I realize that being a deserter from the Empire is now Han's official backstory, but that wasn't the case when TFA was written).

 

[Puckstop40]

I am a Star Wars fanatic but it’s hard to get excited for this. TLJ was awful and killed off literally every single interesting storyline TFA set up.

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

He already is. He's a good looking, charming, hot shot pilot who likes going rogue. There's no escaping that he's a rip off of Han Solo with the way that Abrams and Johnson have written him. It could've maybe been less blatant and more interesting, though, if he had been given a believable backstory (and I realize that being a deserter from the Empire is now Han's official backstory, but that wasn't the case when TFA was written).

Han Solo doesnt go rogue. Also he was an imperial defector long before TFA

 

[Osprey]

Han Solo doesnt go rogue. Also he was an imperial defector long before TFA

Han Solo is almost the definition of a rogue, which includes as synonyms "scoundrel" (which Leia calls him and he owns) and "vagabond" (someone who wanders without a home). Also, I'm referring to canon.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Other than both being cocky and charismatic, they really aren't all that similar.

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

Han Solo is almost the definition of a rogue, which includes as synonyms "scoundrel" (which Leia calls him and he owns) and "vagabond" (someone who wanders without a home). Also, I'm referring to canon.

Well first off you said go rogue, second Leia calls him that as an insult and third he really doesnt exhibit any rogue characteristics

 

[Osprey]

Well first off you said go rogue, second Leia calls him that as an insult and third he really doesnt exhibit any rogue characteristics

Differentiating between "going rogue" and "being a rogue" is being rather argumentative, IMO. As for Leia's insult, Han replies with "Scoundrel? Scoundrel? I like the sound of that" and, shortly after that, "You like me because I'm a scoundrel. There aren't enough scoundrels in your life." That's him owning it and Lucas approving it. Finally, what, exactly, do you consider to be the characteristics of a rogue? I've already looked up the definition and told you that he does exhibit roguish characteristics and it seems to be well accepted that he's a classic rogue character.

3. Han Solo

The way that Hollywood often presents a rogue (in pop cultural terms) is: someone who wants nothing to do with the forces of good, even though they ultimately represent everything that those forces are fighting for.

They just want to be a lying, cheating, small-time scoundrel on the side, without all the little goody two-shoes guys making a fuss about it.

That is the niche Han Solo called home. He’s the lovable, ill-mannered scoundrel who doesn’t want to admit there’s a lot more hero in him than villain. He's a softy at his core ... but wrapped around that is a badass space cowboy who steals, swindles, smuggles and fights his way around the galaxy, dodging both the cops and the space mafia to stay alive.

Even when we see him again as an older man in The Force Awakens, Han is still trying to convince himself he’s ill-fit to fight the good fight. Han is a man in control of his own life, with all the trappings and rewards that come with it. He shunned a traditional life of planted roots for one of constant movement, where his rusty old ship is the only place he feels comfortable.

Plus, his best friend is a giant man-dog abomination who can rip your entire arm off, just for fun.

The Top 10 Greatest Rogues In Hollywood History

It’s time to toss the “super good, super pure, superhero” out and replace it with a more interesting character: the lovable rogue.

Beloved protagonists like Sherlock Holmes, Han Solo of Star Wars, and Aragorn of the Lord of the Rings, have shoved aside the typical image of a super guy with a super cape. We love these guys in all their rogue-ish charm.

So what characteristics should your lovable rogue possess in order for readers to freak over him?

• A memorable personality

• A contradictory nature

• A noble cause he sides with

Let’s talk about how you can use these traits in your own character crafting process.

But He Has a Great Personality!

Who could turn away a scruffy-looking nerf herder like Han Solo? Not even Leia could, in the end. Why? He was egotistical, smart-mouthed, arrogant, sly, and… lovable. Oh, so lovable.

The witty comebacks and wise-cracking rat-a-tat he shared with Chewie and Leia made Han’s big personality unforgettable. Han didn’t have a straight-up good boy attitude like Luke. No, Han was a bit more complicated (and jaded) than that.

But beneath his charm, smooth-talk, and me-first attitude, lay a secretly self-sacrificing softy who had it bad for one particularly spunky princess. That oil and vinegar personality made Han incredibly engaging.

How to Write a Fandom-Worthy Character (Part 2): The Lovable Rogue

 

[cupcrazyman]

Need a Kenobi appearance in this 1

Is he going to float thru space like Leia did ?

 

[MadDevil]

I am a Star Wars fanatic but it’s hard to get excited for this. TLJ was awful and killed off literally every single interesting storyline TFA set up.

I thought TFA was just a rehash of ANH?

 

[Puckstop40]

I thought TFA was just a rehash of ANH?

I can see why people make arguments for that but I’m talking more about the following.

- Snoke
- Luke’s/Anakin’s lightsaber
- Rey’s parents
- Knights of Ren
- The new Republic
- New Jedi Order



I will also be one of the many complainers that will state that TLJ ruined Luke Skywalker and made the whole premise of the map to find Luke in case he was needed completely redundant. In fact, almost everything was thrown out the window from TFA. I could go on and on but it’s already been expressed enough by others and there aren’t enough words to express my disdain for TLJ. It’s the only Star Wars movie where I can legitimately say that there wasn’t anything I enjoyed about it at all.

 

[MadDevil]

I would argue that most of what was "set up" by Abrams was answered by Johnson. Some people just didn't like the answers they got.

And for the record, I think TFA is better than TLJ. I think Abrams was better at capturing the "feel" of Star Wars than Johnson. I still enjoy much of TLJ, but mostly the Force related parts of it (I actually didn't mind what they did with Luke).

 

[HanSolo]

I would argue that most of what was "set up" by Abrams was answered by Johnson. Some people just didn't like the answers they got.

And for the record, I think TFA is better than TLJ. I think Abrams was better at capturing the "feel" of Star Wars than Johnson. I still enjoy much of TLJ, but mostly the Force related parts of it (I actually didn't mind what they did with Luke).

Other than Rey's parentage which could still be bullshit if Kylo was lying and why Luke went into hiding, what?

Where did Snoke come from? How did he amass enough money to fund a second coming of the Empire? I mean presumably he had some means and rounded up the remnant of the Imperial forces but is that really enough to say you've built a new and compelling narrative? What was the new republic even like after the events of Return of the Jedi? Why did there have to be a Resistance separate from the New Republic. It was one thing that the prequels were overstuffed with politics but completely ignoring narrative context was fine for one movie. JJ gave Rian the chance to actually world build and he didn't do it at all. So if it ever happens in this trilogy it will have to come in the final chapter.

Otherwise we're left with a bland good guys vs bad guys story. Again, I think for TFA in just establishing a new cast of characters, that was fine. But TLJ's biggest failure is that it answered very few questions and allowed the sequel trilogy to feel far too small in scope.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

I don't think knowing exactly how Snoke got to where he was is that important. I don't think knowing the nitty gritty of the new Republic is that important (and if you are going to get mad about that and the fact they didn't seem to have any real military worth a damn you should be focusing on Abrams, not Johnson).

As far as world building, what kind of world were you wanting to build from TFA? Does every movie need to have tons and tons of world building (how much of that was in ESB) to be an enjoyable Star Wars movie?

And a good guys vs. bad guys story isn't bland. You may want to see something completely different, but that doesn't make it bland.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

I don't think knowing exactly how Snoke got to where he was is that important. I don't think knowing the nitty gritty of the new Republic is that important (and if you are going to get mad about that and the fact they didn't seem to have any real military worth a damn you should be focusing on Abrams, not Johnson).

As far as world building, what kind of world were you wanting to build from TFA? Does every movie need to have tons and tons of world building (how much of that was in ESB) to be an enjoyable Star Wars movie?

And a good guys vs. bad guys story isn't bland. You may want to see something completely different, but that doesn't make it bland.

this...

did everyone forget what happened when we were told how Vader came to be Vader?

 

[Randy Butternubs]

this...

did everyone forget what happened when we were told how Vader came to be Vader?

Same with the Emperor.

 

[John Price]

I recently finished watching Episodes II and III over the weekend and they were not as bad as I had feared they would be. It got me thinking, since I've seen all the Star Wars episode movies finally, that I'm not really that excited about IX. As people said above a lot was resolved. There really isn't much that motivates me to watch. Snoke is dead, the only plot line would be probably what happens to Kylo Ren.

 

[MadDevil]

The New Republic was blown to hell in TFA. What was there left for Johnson to cover? Did we need a flashback covering the politics leading up to TFA? Shouldn't that have been set up by Abrams to begin with?

I get that people didn't like TLJ, but let's not act like Abrams set up these amazing storylines that Johnson just drove into the ditch. He took what Abrams set up and put his spin on where he thought it should go. Just because you disagree with where he went doesn't mean he just ignored what Abrams set up.