Movies: Star Wars - Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker - II

[NyQuil]

An unpopular opinion but I like the Phantom Menace best of any of the prequels. The killing of Darth Maul was a major mistake, though how it was done was masterful.

I liked it a lot when it came out.

Over time it has shown some cracks in terms of the acting, script, dialogue and the limits of CGI at the time.

 

[bleedblue1223]

I genuinely don't know how many of you have actually watched AotC in the last 4 years.

Like if these are genuine opinions fine, mine is gonna differ, but it's really unfathomable to me personally that we're all just forgetting how bad it was from start to finish. Like there's a few redeemable moments here and there and on the quality of production alone I'd never say it's among the worst movies ever made, just like I wouldn't say the same of TLJ, but still really think the visceral reaction to the disappointment that TLJ was is giving AotC more retroactive goodwill than it deserves.

It's the difference between how they are disliked.

Take the ST. For people that like the ST or more specifically TLJ, they tend to either like all or most of it, and if they are willing to acknowledge some of the more agreed upon issues, they still end up liking a majority of the film. They like how it was made and the creative decisions. For the people that didn't like TLJ, it almost always comes down to lore and creative decisions, and some film making aspects. If there is a film that you don't agree with most of the creative and lore decisions, then you are going to hate it and not want to watch it again.

Take the PT. Most agree that they were poorly made films, but even people that really hate them can agree that there were some really iconic moments. For the people that still enjoy them on some level think there are even more of those moments.

It comes down to lore and creative decisions for why people prefer the PT. The PT has a massive advantage since those decisions were made by Lucas and it carries more weight IMO. GoT went through this when they ran out of source material.

 

[KallioWeHardlyKnewYe]

The fact that little kiddie Anakin built C-3P0 is dumber than any gripes about the lore and creative decisions in The Last Jedi.

 

[bleedblue1223]

The fact that little kiddie Anakin built C-3P0 is dumber than any gripes about the lore and creative decisions in The Last Jedi.

Why? It was a way to show he had mechanic skills that he learned by "working" for Watto, and his light-side by wanting to make life easier for his mom. Leia going Mary Poppins is worse IMO.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

At the end of the day here is how I see the schism:

- People who don't hate the PT are on the emotional side: the story tried, some great memorable moments happen etc....

- People who find the PT to be absolute garbage are on the cinematic side: it simply cannot be overstated of craptastic the direction is in the PT

I find myself in the second camp. I feel ill whenever I watch the PT.

Interestingly I think this cleavage also applies to the ST: people who don't think the ST isn't as bad as the PT do so on the basis that the ST works on a cinematographic level. Those who hate the ST do so on an emotional basis: Luke shouldn't turn into a disillusioned jerk, I don't need to see re-telling of ANH etc....

 

[bleedblue1223]

At the end of the day here is how I see the schism:

- People who don't hate the PT are on the emotional side: the story tried, some great memorable moments happen etc....

- People who find the PT to be absolute garbage are on the cinematic side: it simply cannot be overstated of craptastic the direction is in the PT

I find myself in the second camp. I feel ill whenever I watch the PT.

Exactly. It's pretty simple in the end.

I will be curious how the cinematic side view the ST when it's all said and done because the flow of it from movie to movie is going to be terrible. There's a reason why you try to have the same director or writers from movie to movie in a trilogy or series.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Exactly. It's pretty simple in the end.

I will be curious how the cinematic side view the ST when it's all said and done because the flow of it from movie to movie is going to be terrible. There's a reason why you try to have the same director or writers from movie to movie in a trilogy or series.

If the overarching flow of a trilogy mattered more than the merit of the individual movies I think the PT would have a much better reputation. The PT works as the story of the rise and fall of Anakin, at least on paper.

I am confident that the ST will go down as a massive missed opportunity but it won't reach the lows of the PT. At the end of the day these are movies, it is very hard to overcome awful execution when thinking critically.

Doesn't mean people are wrong for enjoying the PT more than the ST of course, just that the emotional side is very personal whereas the cinematography aspect isn't as much.

 

[bleedblue1223]

If the overarching flow of a trilogy mattered more than the merit of the individual movies I think the PT would have a much better reputation. The PT works as the story of the rise and fall of Anakin, at least on paper.

I am confident that the ST will go down as a massive missed opportunity but it won't reach the lows of the PT. At the end of the day these are movies, it is very hard to overcome awful execution when thinking critically.

Doesn't mean people are wrong for enjoying the PT more than the ST of course, just that the emotional side is very personal whereas the cinematography aspect isn't as much.

They both matter though. While the ST movies individually will be well made, it will feel very choppy and feel like there wasn't an overall plan when watching them together. That will hurt them IMO.

 

[Tawnos]

Re: "lore and creative decisions"

There are three aspects to this, IMO. The decision. The story. The execution. I don't think it's our place as an audience to judge the decision to tell the story with the plot, details and character choices that were involved. I think we can judge if the story is interesting or valuable and I think we can judge if it's well executed (plot holes fall in the execution of telling to story). A lot of people who dislike TLJ believe it is their place to judge decisions, and will also point out issues with execution in particular, whereas a lot of people who dislike AoTC fall almost entirely on negatively judging the exeuction. Someone like @HanSolo will absolutely negatively judge the value of the story told in TPM.

I feel the same way about a lot of stuff that's related to this. For example, I don't judge a band like Metallica for their decision to move in a more radio-friendly direction with the Black Album and Load/Reload ("selling out"), however, I will have opinions on whether they did it well. It's not my job as the audience to more or less try to impose my opinion on what an artist wants to do. I just disagree with people who do that, but certainly there is room for more than one opinion on this.

 

[bleedblue1223]

You are making the argument that the audience/consumers should not be able to critique creative decisions when it comes to plot, details, and character development? That's a load of crap and you know it.

I've been on both sides of those arguments here. People that hated the creative decision of midichlorians, and I defended that. People that hated the character development in Rogue One, and I defended why the character development in that story just wasn't important. Lets not act like the criticisms of the PT solely come down to execution.

And the idea that a random Imperial Officer just assigned the name Solo to Han is something that should be criticized.

 

[Tawnos]

They both matter though. While the ST movies individually will be well made, it will feel very choppy and feel like there wasn't an overall plan when watching them together. That will hurt them IMO.

It depends on what happens with RoS. I feel like TFA to TLJ flows pretty well. Pretty much along the same order as ESB to RotJ. The question is whether or not TLJ to RoS works. I also don't think TPM flows particularly well into AotC.

 

[bleedblue1223]

It depends on what happens with RoS. I feel like TFA to TLJ flows pretty well. Pretty much along the same order as ESB to RotJ. The question is whether or not TLJ to RoS works. I also don't think TPM flows particularly well into AotC.

Disagree about TFA to TLJ. You can clearly pick up on the fact that one is a JJ film and one is a RJ film. Two completely different styles.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Disagree about TFA to TLJ. You can clearly pick up on the fact that one is a JJ film and one is a RJ film. Two completely different styles.

Completely different styles?

I don't know about that one.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Completely different styles?

I don't know about that one.

JJ is all about mystery boxes, RJ is about misdirection. I know subvert expectations is a meme at this point, but that's RJ's style, he likes to be clever about it. JJ prefers more direct, but overwhelming you with mystery boxes that sometimes get revealed and sometimes just remain mysteries.

It's not even a knock, but JJ and RJ do not make similar films.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

JJ is all about mystery boxes, RJ is about misdirection. I know subvert expectations is a meme at this point, but that's RJ's style, he likes to be clever about it. JJ prefers more direct, but overwhelming you with mystery boxes that sometimes get revealed and sometimes just remain mysteries.

So by style you mean general organization of the film?

I think if a sequel has the same organization as the one before it then that leads to a boring series of movies. You can't just use the same exact formula. The "style" as you seem to define it changed between ANH/ESB/ROTJ, so I'm not sure what the criticism is, here.

 

[bleedblue1223]

So by style you mean general organization of the film?

I think if a sequel has the same organization as the one before it then that leads to a boring series of movies. You can't just use the same exact formula. The "style" as you seem to define it changed between ANH/ESB/ROTJ, so I'm not sure what the criticism is, here.

I'm not saying they should mirror each other like TFA mirrored ANH, but the overall feel should flow together.

The style and flow was consistent throughout the OT and PT. If you disagree about my opinion on it, then so be it.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

I'm not saying they should mirror each other like TFA mirrored ANH, but the overall feel should flow together.

The style and flow was consistent throughout the OT and PT. If you disagree about my opinion on it, then so be it.

I'm just trying to understand what your description of "style" has to do with the flow and how it differentiates from the OT or PT.

 

[Tawnos]

You are making the argument that the audience/consumers should not be able to critique creative decisions when it comes to plot, details, and character development? That's a load of crap and you know it.

I've been on both sides of those arguments here. People that hated the creative decision of midichlorians, and I defended that. People that hated the character development in Rogue One, and I defended why the character development in that story just wasn't important. Lets not act like the criticisms of the PT solely come down to execution.

And the idea that a random Imperial Officer just assigned the name Solo to Han is something that should be criticized.

I am making that argument, and I don't know it's a load of crap because I truly believe it. I'm not the artist, which in the context of this conversation is the person creating the story. I don't think my judgment of what the artist wants to tell us has any place in the conversation.

Here's an example of what I mean with this kind of thing. I have no opinion on the choice to have Qui Gon and Obi Wan run into a local guide on Naboo in TPM. I don't have an opinion on making that guide somewhat primitive, an outcast, and I have no opinion on slotting that character in as comedic relief. I have no opinion about the idea of traveling through the "planet core" to get to their destination. I think that Jar Jar's story is interesting and valuable and I think a dangerous route to their destination can be the same. However, I despise Jar Jar because of the way they portrayed that character on screen. I didn't enjoy the whole "there's always a bigger fish" sequence. It's story and the execution I have an opinion on, not the decision to include those elements of the story.

Decisions like Solo being given his name by an officer in the Empire, Luke becoming a bitter hermit, or the Rebels being aided by primitive locals on Endor are examples of the same thing.

 

[bleedblue1223]

I'm just trying to understand what your description of "style" has to do with the flow and how it differentiates from the OT or PT.

Going from mystery box to subvert expectations back to mystery box will be a weird flow. If the leaks turn out to be true, it's going to make for an even weirder flow.

 

[bleedblue1223]

I am making that argument, and I don't know it's a load of crap because I truly believe it. I'm not the artist, which in the context of this conversation is the person creating the story. I don't think my judgment of what the artist wants to tell us has any place in the conversation.

Here's an example of what I mean with this kind of thing. I have no opinion on the choice to have Qui Gon and Obi Wan run into a local guide on Naboo in TPM. I don't have an opinion on making that guide somewhat primitive, an outcast, and I have no opinion on slotting that character in as comedic relief. I have no opinion about the idea of traveling through the "planet core" to get to their destination. I think that Jar Jar's story is interesting and valuable and I think a dangerous route to their destination can be the same. However, I despise Jar Jar because of the way they portrayed that character on screen. I didn't enjoy the whole "there's always a bigger fish" sequence. It's story and the execution I have an opinion on, not the decision to include those elements of the story.

Decisions like Solo being given his name by an officer in the Empire, Luke becoming a bitter hermit, or the Rebels being aided by primitive locals on Endor are examples of the same thing.

That might not be how you do it, but I'd say you'd be in the minority. I've seen many critiques of SW content outside of the ST come down to creative decisions and that being a reason for why they didn't like them. Many still can't get past midichlorians.

You can understand the reasoning behind a decision and what they were trying to go for, but you should still be able to comment and critique that decision. You shouldn't just go along with it because that's what the decision was and that means it's on this pedestal that can't be touched.

 

[KallioWeHardlyKnewYe]

Why? It was a way to show he had mechanic skills that he learned by "working" for Watto, and his light-side by wanting to make life easier for his mom. Leia going Mary Poppins is worse IMO.

My beef isn't that he's a little kid with mechanical/tech/building skills. It's easy to establish that. Build an engine. Build another robot. Build something. Fine. My beef is that he literally builds C-3PO, one of the two droids in this entire massive universe who just happen to play a significant role in the rebellion and his eventual downfall. Now, some might point out there there could be a little dramatic irony here ... well, except for the fact that convenient memory wiping to make the continuity work eliminates any real meaning to Threepio's origin and, ultimately, the Anakin/Vader-Threepio relationship isn't really a meaningful one. So why try to force meaning upon it?

There are tons of ways he could have introduced Threepio to the prequel story (or, maybe even not at all...) and he picked by far the most asinine one. Yo, cool toy where you see his wires though.

For what it's worth, I don't love Leia's Mary Poppins act either. But I hate the Threepio bit more though.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Going from mystery box to subvert expectations back to mystery box will be a weird flow. If the leaks turn out to be true, it's going to make for an even weirder flow.

Those aren't styles, those are just specific methods that directors can utilize in a film (theoretically you could have both). I didn't walk away from TFA thinking it was a "mystery box" film or that it was the centerpiece.

 

[NyQuil]

What bugs me is when my criticism gets lumped in with those who are sexist or racist assholes and hate TLJ on those grounds.

However, when you read a lot of coverage of the film, that tends to be the most prominent talking point around criticism.

My issues with the film have absolutely nothing to do with that whatsoever.

I think Rey is a refreshing and well-executed Jedi character. Finn provides valuable comic relief and support. I wasn't a huge fan of Rose Tico but mainly because I felt she was relatively unnecessary with so little screen time to go around.

 

[bleedblue1223]

My beef isn't that he's a little kid with mechanical/tech/building skills. It's easy to establish that. Build an engine. Build another robot. Build something. Fine. My beef is that he literally builds C-3PO, one of the two droids in this entire massive universe who just happen to play a significant role in the rebellion and his eventual downfall. There are tons of ways he could have introduced Threepio to the prequel story (or, maybe even not at all...) and he picked by far the most asinine one. Yo, cool toy where you see his wires though.

For what it's worth, I don't love Leia's Mary Poppins act either. But I hate the Threepio bit more though.

Fair. I definitely understand your point and partially agree with it.

 

[Tawnos]

Disagree about TFA to TLJ. You can clearly pick up on the fact that one is a JJ film and one is a RJ film. Two completely different styles.

They're really no further apart than ANH and ESB in terms of style, which also had different writers and directors.