Sportsnet top 20 centres

WetcoastOrca

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I’ll take statistics with a modicum of reliability and correlation to future GF%, every time. But you keep doing you. I’m sure it’s working out well
Lol! Just admit you didn’t even read the article. The stats aren’t predicting anything. They’re saying that Matthews is the fifth best center now. He clearly isn’t. That’s the beauty about actual production. It can’t be easily fudged. Every top center has produced.
 
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Aladyyn

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How?

Because right now it sounds more like you just like it more because it has an answer you prefer
Well that's not true. I don't think Krejci is that good, I don't think Seguin is outside the top 20 etc. But I'm going to think about it, do some of my own research, maybe ask Andrew some questions on Twitter etc. I don't see these lists as gospel or anything, but they can challenge us on the way we think about hockey. And since they're not just opinions we might even get decent answers to our questions!
 
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Echo Roku

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Well that's not true. I don't think Krejci is that good, I don't think Seguin is outside the top 20 etc. But I'm going to think about it, do some of my own research, maybe ask Andrew some questions on Twitter etc. I don't see these lists as gospel or anything, but they can challenge us on the way we think about hockey. And since they're not just opinions we might even get decent answers to our questions!
That’s not an answer.

You don’t know anything about the methodology. And you failed to offer a reason to trust it there, either.

And you say you currently trust it despite that
 

Aladyyn

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That’s not an answer.

You don’t know anything about the methodology. And you failed to offer a reason to trust it there, either.

And you say you currently trust it despite that
Because this ranking is consistent within itself. Every player is ranked by the exact same criteria. That's what makes it superior.
 
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Echo Roku

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Because this ranking is consistent within itself. Every player is ranked by the exact same criteria. That's what makes it superior.
So if I ranked the best wingers based on face off percentages (but only for the playoffs)...

... then you’d consider that trustworthy?
 

Echo Roku

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No, because that's just a stupid concept.
And you know nothing about how statistics are being accounted for in this.

It could be just as stupid, but you have no idea. Yet automatic level of trust for a reason that exists with that idea I noted as well
 
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FinRanger

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Not surprised to see some fans shout "they ranked that and that so highhhh". THE LIST IS BASED ON STATISTICAL MODEL! NOT SUBJECTIVE ARGUMENTS. FIRST YOU MUST ANALYZE THE MODEL AND THEN CRITIQUE THE MODEL. HINT THERE IS MORE TO HOCKEY THAN SCORING POINTS.
 
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Echo Roku

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Not surprised to see stupid North American fans shout "they ranked that and that so highhhh". THE LIST IS BASED ON STATISTICAL MODEL! NOT SUBJECTIVE ARGUMENTS. FIRST YOU MUST ANALYZE THE MODEL AND THEN CRITIQUE THE MODEL. HINT THERE IS MORE TO HOCKEY THAN SCORING POINTS.
Noting the list’s failure to reflect reality is indeed a critique of the model’s legitimacy
 
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Echo Roku

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Yeah but if the argument is that "I think player a is better than player b" I trust the model more in that case.
Why? You know nothing about the model’s methodology.

The model supposedly accounts for dozens of stats. Each one needs to be quantified to be compared to other, then weighted in importance to each other.

That’s dozens and dozens of assumptions.

And if you refuse to use actual observations in reality to compare them to, then you also have no way to give any legitimacy to any of those assumptions
 

tucker3434

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Not surprised to see stupid North American fans shout "they ranked that and that so highhhh". THE LIST IS BASED ON STATISTICAL MODEL! NOT SUBJECTIVE ARGUMENTS. FIRST YOU MUST ANALYZE THE MODEL AND THEN CRITIQUE THE MODEL. HINT THERE IS MORE TO HOCKEY THAN SCORING POINTS.

What does being North American have to do with anything?
 

I am not exposed

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Just an awful list. These "experts" always try to change their lists up in some controversial way to get people talking and make it look like they did their research. There is no one in the entire league that would take Trocheck or Krejci over Seguin. Except apparently these "experts". This is like one of those lists where they make it and realize they forgot a key player afterwards and just hope no one notices. Wouldn't surprise me if they didn't even look at the Stars roster when making this list cause they forgot

Yeah, because the Panthers are a media darling team!
 

WetcoastOrca

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Like I have said before no rookie has scored that many goals in a season since Ovechkin's 52 goals in 2006. Hell Matthews did one better than Crosby's rookie season, so that's how rare it is to see a rookie in the top 2 in total goals.
And no rookie has scored as many points as Barzal since Malkin in his rookie year. Still doesn’t make him a top 5 center.
 

b in vancouver

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Getzlaf is super underrated every since the Ducks constantly disappointed their fans after their cup winning season. Hes never been the reason that they suck. I would say hes been top 5 for a long time, minus a few down years.

Not sure of top 5 - as I'd have Crosby, McDavid, Bergeron, Malkin, Kopitar ahead but I'd probably have him at 6. - I agree he gets under-rated all the time. He's fantastic. Before Perry went down he was one of my dark horse Hart candidates.
ahead of guys like Backstrom and Tavares and Scheifele but
things could/should change this year with the emergence of guys like Eichel, MacKinnon, Barkov and Matthews.

I just don't have those guys in the top 6 yet as for my money they haven't proven to be better than some of these incredibly impactful vets. They need to show it this year.
 
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Laineux

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Funny how people that completely disregard statistical analysis will have no problem using point totals as the be-all, end-all evaluation tool for players.

Points are just one pretty good but limited measure of offensive impact.
 
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WetcoastOrca

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Funny how people that completely disregard statistical analysis will have no problem using point totals as the be-all, end-all evaluation tool for players.

Points are just one pretty good but limited measure of offensive impact.
Of course. But every single superstar center has put up points. If you don’t put up points you’re not a superstar. It’s not a complicated concept. Maybe you can make an exception for a Selke level center. But that’s not where Matthews is at this point.
 
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