Confirmed with Link: Skinner traded to Buffalo for 2nd, 3rd, 6th, and prospect

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Negan4Coach

Fantastic and Stochastic
Aug 31, 2017
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No **** that I'm tired of that same ****ing woe is us donkey **** we are putting up with day after ****ing day on here. Seriously **** that I'm done with that ****.

Some of you are so goddammned pathetic grasping at every single straw of something possibly being bad to pile on to the "this team sucks, and you should be ashamed for feeling like things are in a good direction". ****ing Christ, this fanbase sucks sometimes. I get it, 10 years since the playoffs and it looks like this year isn't any better but ****, what the **** was there to do about fixing goalie this year? There was literally nobody available that would have satisfied our needs, and yet we meltdown like it's the end of the world when that becomes reality. Even Grubauer, as anointed as he was would have been another backup turned maybe starter that we had with Khudobin, Lack, and Darling, and Washington wasn't going to trade him here. There were no options that would have satisfied this fanbase but no let's **** all over Waddell because he couldn't do the literal impossible to get a great true #1 goalie here. You know, because we missed out so many times. Oh, and now Skinner, the one dimensional decent scorer who allows his team to get lit the **** up when he's on the ice didn't get a great return on a trade. You don't say. Man and thats totally not in line at all with the return others have gotten in similar situations this year. ROR, in a more valuable on ice position, got a **** return as well, and we knew, it was openly discussed, that Skinner would get a worse one when they was announced, but yeah let's blame our front office because the rest of the league has shown they have little desire for 30 goal scorers who literally do nothing else. For as bad as we **** on the quality of our offense, Skinner was likely going to be a 3rd line player this year because his quality just wasnt there despite being the single most sheltered forward on the team. Anyone who did any ounce of research into his actual play who wasn't enamored by OMG he can score a few goals and he won the Calder 8 years ago would have realized his value tanked the last couple seasons. We weren't getting any quality player for him and we certainly weren't getting a 1st.

We're a better team without him. I don't give a ****ing **** how bad of a tantrum you throw over it, this was a trade that needed to be made now. His play was cancerous to a team as young as we are and he needed to get got. Now we can legitimately move on to the Aho-Svech-Necas era. And you're not on board with that, piss off.

You know I hate to disagree with you because I always find myself agreeing eith so many of your posts, but in this case you are wrong.

I had no problem with them getting rid of Staal, because as the Captain, he embodied not giving a shit and that was totally intolerable. Skinner was not the captain, and he always seemed to care and play hard, many times carrying the team on his back and single handedly winning games. Yes he sucked at D. That is not a function of his being a "locker room cancer". Its just a function of the type of player he is, and that could have been mitigated by proper leadership but it was not. At the end of the day, his play here on a contract year would have been more valuable to the organization than thr results of this trade.
 

Boom Boom Apathy

I am the Professor. Deal with it!
Sep 6, 2006
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A decent article from "Canes and Coffee". Not sure I agree with all of it, but I do agree with much of it.

His view, which I tend to agree with, is that while the Canes have a "group" that makes decisions, that the desire to move Skinner was largely driven by Brind'Amour. In the article a while back, Brindy came right out and said Skinner hasn't been held accountable for his play and he "hopes" Skinner comes back with the right mindset. It sure sounded to me like Brindy, who has been an assistant coach for 7 of Skinner's 8 professional seasons, wanted him gone.

Hurricanes trade Jeff Skinner to Buffalo for three draft picks and prospect Cliff Pu (Part 1) | Canes & Coffee
 

Stickpucker

Playmaka
Jan 18, 2014
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I think Cam will be above .912 in Chicago. For the past for four years Canes' goalies have had their worst seasons. It was something about the system.

Go to hockeyviz and look at the Standardized Goals Against article. It is the most detailed analysis of goalie performance I have ever read. It looks at the 16-17 season. Ward's save % was .905. Which was near the bottom of the league. Yet this multi-variant analysis indicates that Ward was slightly above league average (and Lack that year was even a little better).

My guess is that was true for most of the last 6 years. So don't be surprised that Ward's save % (which seems like the one number most fans think proves goalie quality) is .912 or better this year.

I think Calgary's goalies will have career worst seasons with Peters system for similar reasons.
 

tarheelhockey

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In context of having it confirmed from Skinner himself that he never shot down an offer, I’m not sure what to make of Cole going out in his official capacity as a Canes ambassador and putting it into the media that Skinner was “nixing trades”. I realize that phrase could be taken as shorthand for Skinner giving the Canes a short list of destinations, but nixing trades is not the same thing as simply telling the organization that he doesn’t want to go to LA or whatever.

Even if we give Cole the benefit of the doubt (that he misunderstood or misspoke, rather than that he lied) and even if we give the organization the benefit of the doubt (that they just sent Cole to do a free-flowing interview, not to plant a story)... even with those benefits of the doubt, that whole interview and set of comments seems incredibly reckless.
 

Boom Boom Apathy

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Sep 6, 2006
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In context of having it confirmed from Skinner himself that he never shot down an offer, I’m not sure what to make of Cole going out in his official capacity as a Canes ambassador and putting it into the media that Skinner was “nixing trades”. I realize that phrase could be taken as shorthand for Skinner giving the Canes a short list of destinations, but nixing trades is not the same thing as simply telling the organization that he doesn’t want to go to LA or whatever.

Even if we give Cole the benefit of the doubt (that he misunderstood or misspoke, rather than that he lied) and even if we give the organization the benefit of the doubt (that they just sent Cole to do a free-flowing interview, not to plant a story)... even with those benefits of the doubt, that whole interview and set of comments seems incredibly reckless.

Not just Skinner, Waddell also confirmed that Skinner never turned down any offers. He said that he/his agent just gave the team a very limited list of teams he would approve.

Was that the WRAL interview with Cole a while back you are referring to? I only caught parts of the original interview so would like to go back and listen to the one you are referring to.
 

tarheelhockey

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Not just Skinner, Waddell also confirmed that Skinner never turned down any offers. He said that he/his agent just gave the team a very limited list of teams he would approve.

Was that the WRAL interview with Cole a while back you are referring to? I only caught parts of the original interview so would like to go back and listen to the one you are referring to.

I don’t know where to link the audio at this point, but @Svechhammer posted this transcript upthread:

There’s a big difference, between having your name out there in terms of trades and rumors and you don’t have any control. Jeff Skinner has some control of it. how a No Trade got worked into that contract is beyond me–like his agent deserves a tip of the hat, just because of the age factor and it’s kind of off the beaten path when it comes to like that age.
[unintelligible] why are you giving that much security to somebody that’s not exactly tied to the community, in the sense where guys with families and kids are more attached to the community and that’s why they seek out the–having the No Trade, having that clause, and uh having that little bit of say and the little bit of control but at the same time you earn that. and I don’t necessarily know that that was really earned it was kind of –given. And now he’s taking advantage of it, like there’s been some talk that there’s been some trades out there that he put the nix on, which is his right, it was negotiated, and he can do it. for me I look at it like I looked at the Joni Pitkänen issue before i signed with Montreal.
Joni Pitkänen had been on the trade block for months, […] We missed the playoffs. we get to that offseason, one of the first offseason signings was Joni Pitkänen. I was just thinking, like, we were trying to get rid of this guy for the past four months and now we’ve signed him again.
For me, I always looked at it like if I was on a team and I knew they were trying to trade me… […] you’re going to have to swallow your pride – if the team is openly shopping around and trying to move you, at some point you have to say there’s a better situation over there or there and there and swallow your pride and go.
I’d say to Jeff, we let him get away with a lot of flaws in terms of how to play the game on both sides of the puck, we just chalked it up to growing pains and we were in the whole transition. I used to warn him all the time, that he was going to miss me. when i came into the league i wasn’t given any free passes and i was held accountable. it was always difficult for me to see an 18-year-old just come into the League and uh be told it’s just growing pains, and not be held accountable.


I’m not saying it was on purpose (or that it wasn’t) but in retrospect it seems... abnormal for a Canes employee to interview with the major local media outlet and make claim that turns out to be completely unsubstantiated like that one. It’s one thing if he’s just some random ex-player, but Cole takes a paycheck from the Canes. Even if he just got his facts a bit confused, that’s a pretty reckless way to represent the organization publicly WRT a player’s contract status and trade negotiations.
 

My Special Purpose

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Apr 8, 2008
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Skinner was not the captain, and he always seemed to care and play hard, many times carrying the team on his back and single handedly winning games. Yes he sucked at D. That is not a function of his being a "locker room cancer". Its just a function of the type of player he is, and that could have been mitigated by proper leadership but it was not.

Sorry, but this is crap. Sucking at D is not a function of the type of player he is. It's a function of lack of effort and bad decisions. Every coach I've ever had has said the same thing -- and they're right -- that defense is about two things: positioning and effort. No skill required.

Skinner didn't work hard on defense because he didn't want to, not because he's genetically missing the defense chromosome. He didn't think it was worth his time and effort.

Could a coach have gotten on his case when this first started becoming an issue? Sure, but we didn't have a lot of options in the recent past. Plus, this is the NHL. I think it's beyond fair to have *some* expectations of these guys at this point.
 

NotOpie

"Puck don't lie"
Jun 12, 2006
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North Carolina
I’ll take that bet. I suspect we’re going to hear all year that Skinner’s deficiencies were greatly exaggerated, and he’ll likely be given credit for his new found defensive sensibilities that are respectable enough for him to keep his job.

I believe this as well. In fact, Skinner is now in a place where he could be considered a veteran leader and I wouldn't be surprised for that to happen. The opposite might happen as well, but that feels unlikely in a contract year. I think you'll see the very best "Jeff Skinner" this season.

Carolina doesn’t know what sucking and a bad owner really is.

Mariners, Pirates....what about us Orioles fans!!!!???

The lack of any kind of roster player in return on the deal? The fact that this teams offense still wasn't projected to be in the top half of the league even with Skinner now has to make up for his output

Serious question here....when has any recent "rental player" trade included a roster player of any consequence coming back....I'm not talking about a cap dump or a 3rd line scrub....I mean a real, contributing roster player?

If Necas can match Ryan’s point totals from this past season we should all be thrilled.

38 points from Necas is right where I hope/anticipate Martin's production to be.

The negativity is crazy.

As others have said.....Alice, is that you from down in the rabbit hole?

I’m not saying either of Martinook or Ferland was a bad acquisition, far from it.

Ferland I'm cautiously optimistic for....Martinook, in my opinion, is probably a non-factor.

With what will surely be among the worst goaltending in the league.

The idea that, somehow, Cam Ward gave/gives us a better chance at eeking out mediocrity is revising history. Plus, despite having a couple of bad years, Mrazek has a better lifetime save % than both Cam Ward and Scott Darling. To say that his presence guarantees a worse goaltending duo just isn't born out by the data.

Plus, and yes I am the resident optimist, Mrazek's season in 16-17 was in front of a near historically bad defense (Detroit posted a 79 point season that year).

He said he would spend to compete, but it would be for the right players. Skinner wasn't a part of that equation.

Probably goes without saying, but we're still a good ways away from the season's start. Personally, I just can't see assets not being used to make at least one more move up front.

It’s been a lot of mostly pointless bickering

....which is either new or unusual how?

Skinner was not the captain, and he always seemed to care and play hard, many times carrying the team on his back and single handedly winning games.

While I will agree that he did always seem to care (until the 2nd half of this past season), his "play hard" quotient was erratic at best. He was often characterized, and correctly so, as "floating", which isn't a rare thing for guys primarily known for their goal scoring. What I do take umbrage with is the bolded part above. He may have occasionally taken the team on his shoulders, it was more rare than not, and best characterized as erratic or inconsistent.

I loved Jeff Skinner as a Cane. But let's not rewrite history in either direction. He was a great goal scorer who could dramatically impact games with his offense. He could back check when he wanted and ended up being a "takeaway" monster. His overall defensive game was lacking and, despite having great vision and good passing skills, he almost never utilized his linemates very effectively. One just has to know what they get with Jeff Skinner and use him effectively. Disappointment with him was never a consistent thing either, but it was maddeningly frustrating.

In context of having it confirmed from Skinner himself that he never shot down an offer, I’m not sure what to make of Cole going out in his official capacity as a Canes ambassador and putting it into the media that Skinner was “nixing trades”.

The truth is always somewhere in the middle. What we do know is that Jeff's team gave a very limited list of teams he'd be willing to go to. That list likely was accompanied with some form of caveat around...."I'm not interested in going anywhere else". In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if ideas were brought to Jeff's agent and shot down before actually getting to Jeff. That's the agent's job, in most cases, to be a buffer and/or a translator of client wishes.

The whole Erik Cole thing was interesting in that it felt almost like he couldn't help himself....but it also felt a bit like he was articulating Roddy's position.
 

Boom Boom Apathy

I am the Professor. Deal with it!
Sep 6, 2006
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the McDonagh/JT Miller trade last year.

Not quite apples to apples. McDonagh was a rental for sure, but JT Miller wasn't. He was an RFA at the expiration of his deal, so not at all a rental. That would be like the Canes trading Skinner and Teravainen in the same deal.

Even with that, the return, even with Namestikov, was dominated by picks/prospects (Howden, Hajek and a picks).
 

tarheelhockey

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The truth is always somewhere in the middle.

Well... not always. Sometimes people simply say things that aren’t true at all.

The whole Erik Cole thing was interesting in that it felt almost like he couldn't help himself....but it also felt a bit like he was articulating Roddy's position.

Now that you mention it, I can’t unsee this when I read his quotes back. It does like he’s speaking for Rod in a situation where Rod isn’t free to air his issues publicly. Of course it’s still a bad idea for Cole to act as his attack dog, but it does make some sense when you frame it like that.
 

Boom Boom Apathy

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Interesting part from Luke's article today in the N&O. We talked about goals lost vs. goals gained in the players leaving and coming in. I don't know enough about "point shares" and the exact puts and takes of the metric, but he wrote:

Using last season’s point shares, an advanced metric which tries to measure each players’ contribution to the team’s overall point total, the four players the Hurricanes brought in almost exactly balance the nine players the Hurricanes lost, and that’s with de Haan playing only a third of a season and before accounting for Necas and Svechnikov, leaving considerable runway for improvement in the standings.

With Dundon's comments earlier on about Red, Green, Yellow decisions and his promotion of Tlusky, I wonder how much weight this carries in player personnel discussions.

Still, none of it will matter of the goaltending isn't any good as that is the biggest piece, but it's interesting.
 

Big Daddy Cane

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The only one that I can think of off the top of my head is the 1 year of Burns returning Setoguchi, who was a couple years removed from a 35 goal season.

1 year Vanek returned Moulson, but he also had 1 year of term left on his contract.

Callahan returned St. Louis, but the impending UFA wasn’t the focal point of that trade.
 

GoldiFox

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Apr 21, 2014
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On most teams in salary capped sports moving a $6 million contract that the team absolutely had to move without taking back a dime would be seen as a win as it opens further opportunities.

Whereas for the Canes it just underscores that they have no plans to realistically compete next year. $6 million in Cap space isn’t an opportunity, it is just money they didn’t have to pay out. And the moment the deal was made that basis was understood by everybody from Canes fans to TSN. Cause Canes gonna Cane. It’s a sad place to live.
 

tarheelhockey

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Interesting part from Luke's article today in the N&O. We talked about goals lost vs. goals gained in the players leaving and coming in. I don't know enough about "point shares" and the exact puts and takes of the metric, but he wrote:



With Dundon's comments earlier on about Red, Green, Yellow decisions and his promotion of Tlusky, I wonder how much weight this carries in player personnel discussions.

Still, none of it will matter of the goaltending isn't any good as that is the biggest piece, but it's interesting.

If he’s talking about the point share stats on hockey-reference.com, I’ve seen a couple of articles that basically call it a useless number.

But he might be talking about something else, seeing as how ______ shares has become a pretty common way to talk about player value.
 

Stickpucker

Playmaka
Jan 18, 2014
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Point shares is a really interesting metric and I do agree a lot of these decisions had Tulskys fingerprint. I think we may be going with more of a moneyball approach than we realized. Still hard to predict goalies but I'm a big believer in Mrazek.....the guy has a ton of talent if he can pull it all together we could be a very good team.

I am probably in the minority, but, Rod as HC might have me more nervous than the goaltending.
 

DaveG

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Apr 7, 2003
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Point shares is a really interesting metric and I do agree a lot of these decisions had Tulskys fingerprint. I think we may be going with more of a moneyball approach than we realized. Still hard to predict goalies but I'm a big believer in Mrazek.....the guy has a ton of talent if he can pull it all together we could be a very good team.

I am probably in the minority, but, Rod as HC might have me more nervous than the goaltending.
I have a LOT more faith in Mrazek bouncing back next year than I do in Darling doing so personally. I'm hoping he takes the #1 spot early and runs with it because that's the best chance we'll have at the playoffs.
I still think we need to be at about 245-250 goals to have a shot but having goaltending that isn't a dumpster fire knocking our goals against down in to the 230s would help a ton as well.
 

Boom Boom Apathy

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I didn't read too much into the metric "point share" itself as any single metric is pretty useless by itself. More the notion that the players coming in may not equal the goals scored of the 9 players going out, but do other things (ie..play defense) which offsets the loss of goals and helps the team win and I wonder how much Tlusky has analyzed this and played a big role in the decisions. It's hard to judge things like that with different teams/goaltenders, etc., but there's no denying that most the the guys this board bitched about in terms of bad defense and weak play have been moved (except Lindholm). Faulk is the one that still remains, but the rest are gone.

That's what I was getting at.
 

Svechhammer

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I’m not saying it was on purpose (or that it wasn’t) but in retrospect it seems... abnormal for a Canes employee to interview with the major local media outlet and make claim that turns out to be completely unsubstantiated like that one. It’s one thing if he’s just some random ex-player, but Cole takes a paycheck from the Canes. Even if he just got his facts a bit confused, that’s a pretty reckless way to represent the organization publicly WRT a player’s contract status and trade negotiations.
This is also taking Skinner for his word. With the nature of trade rumors, he has nothing to lose by denying he veto'd trades. In the case where he actually did do that, its not like anyone is going to come with receipts to prove him wrong. And he can still be truthful by saying he didn't veto anything if he just reiterated he wasn't going to waive for a trade to x, y, or z even if trades were in place. Technically, he didn't veto the trade, just didn't waive his NTC.
 
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