Confirmed with Link: Skinner traded to Buffalo for 2nd, 3rd, 6th, and prospect

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I’m starting to wonder if some posters aren’t putting one over on us.

 

[emptyNedder]

Not going to quote several posts. Look I understand the frustration with last season and optimism for the upcoming season. But any comments that Nordstrom was soft/not hard to play against/weak on the ice are way off the mark. I will be the first to agree that his offense is woeful. However, as one of his teammates said in an interview: Nordstrom will step in front of a hard slap shot with one minute left in the third and the team up three goals.

Personally, I also thought Lindholm was tough--or at least difficult to play against. In fact, I agree with one of the posters over at Canes & Coffee who has suggested that the Canes have created holes in the penalty kill. Losing Lindholm, Nordstrom, even Kruger is losing more than their goal production. While the PK was not very good last season, the personnel looks less competent this season.

 

[bleedgreen]

I agree with Tarheel, because this regime change has just been so heavy handed on its narrative of culture change. It really does feel like change for the sake of change even when the moves make sense. Which is weird.

To me it feels like limbo, and unsettling. We still have Faulk which we all know isn’t the plan. So that’s in the air. The goaltending is in the air. No one wants to just waste a season. I agree we could use the season to just start so we at least have more tangible things to bitch about.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

Because at some point it really does become a Stockholm Syndrome-ish relationship where every move can be defended one way or another.

“We moved out one of our most talented players and got nothing back, but maybe we’re making room for someone already in the system!” <— there’s no valid argument against this because it’s based on blind faith on something that may or may not exist.

“Those core young players from a previous rebuild were a bunch of disappointments. We couldn’t win with those guys! It’s time to cut bait and move on to THIS group of core young players!” <— the mantra of a team that has multiple failed rebuilds in a row. There’s no way to argue against it because again, it’s based in blind faith that the next batch of draft picks is somehow more special than the last one (which was sold as being just as special when they were drafted).

“Yeah, the goalie situation is ****ed beyond all recognition, but we’ve already fired the guy responsible for that. The new guy can’t be held to blame for old mistakes.” <— this is why CEOs get replaced after 5 years. Stockholders have a bottomless pool of patience as long as they see people getting fired and replaced.

“Sure the roster looks bad, but this head coach may be able to get way more out of them than we see on paper. He has no track record whatsoever, so the only way to find out is to give him 3 years to implement his system and grow the young guys into it” <— this can be repeated endlessly if your coaching hires are Muller, Peters, Brind’Amour, etc.

“Look at all the money we’ve saved! As soon as we get better players, we’ll have all the flexibility in the world to hold onto them forever.” <— presumes that we will actually get better players at some point, and that this batch of young talent won’t be branded LOSERS and dumped at the end of their RFA contracts just like the last batch. Again, blind faith in promises of an uncertain future outcome.


These exact same arguments have been circulating on this board like **** in a toilet bowl for a full decade. It’s a waste of our time and our resources to rehash it again for another 5 years while the braintrust figures out what a winning hockey team actually looks like. Despite what some people seem to think, the organization literally does OWE this fanbase a better product than this. We held up our end of the bargain for 10 years. Now it’s the Carolina Hurricanes’ turn to hold up theirs. To do their jobs, do what they need to do to put up a playoff-worthy roster. I don’t care if Dundon has to spend $10 million to do it. That’s the annual cost of one good player nowadays. If he doesn’t want to do that, he shouldn’t own a god damned NHL team and he certainly shouldn’t be running his mouth about culture changes.

So you're mad, is what you're saying.

Am I reading you right? I just want to be sure.

 

[tarheelhockey]

So you're mad, is what you're saying.

Am I reading you right? I just want to be sure.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

This may be the most perfect response ever.

 

[Unsustainable]

I wish the return on skinner was better, but his NMC screwed us, JR was just the gift that kept giving in the end.

For all of his issues, Skinner was our most prolific scorer next to Ray.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Not going to quote several posts. Look I understand the frustration with last season and optimism for the upcoming season. But any comments that Nordstrom was soft/not hard to play against/weak on the ice are way off the mark. I will be the first to agree that his offense is woeful. However, as one of his teammates said in an interview: Nordstrom will step in front of a hard slap shot with one minute left in the third and the team up three goals.

Personally, I also thought Lindholm was tough--or at least difficult to play against. In fact, I agree with one of the posters over at Canes & Coffee who has suggested that the Canes have created holes in the penalty kill. Losing Lindholm, Nordstrom, even Kruger is losing more than their goal production. While the PK was not very good last season, the personnel looks less competent this season.

Nordstrom would block shots so I agree on that point, but he wasn't hard to play against. His biggest asset was his speed, but he was knocked off the puck rather easily (and fell/got knocked down all the time). Combine that with his limited skill set and it made him not very hard to play against.

Lindy, I somewhat agree. He showed more physical play last year than most of the other forwards. My biggest frustration with Lindholm is that he'd disappear for long stretches where you wouldn't even know he was out there. Of course, that could be said about a lot of the team.

Re: the PK, that's going to be interesting to watch, but until we know the roster, it's hard to say what holes exist. As you stated, it wasn't very good last year even with those guys you mention.

I'm guessing Staal and McGinn will be on the PK for sure.
IIRC, Martinook was one of the Coyotes top PKer, so I assume he'd be one of the forwards.
Aho played PK in international play and IIRC, even scored a few SH goals so maybe him.
If Foegele makes the team, I'd imagine he's be one of the leading candidates as I understand he was a good PKr in Charlotte.

Certainly some things to be sorted out there, but I'm less worried about that than other things (like the Goaltending, the goaltending, and the goaltending).

 

[Unsustainable]

I wish the return on skinner was better, but his NMC screwed us, JR was just the gift that kept giving in the end.

For all of his issues, Skinner was our most prolific scorer next to Ray.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

this is why making the playoffs, even just once in a fluke year, is necessary. since 2011, when the team lost to tampa in a win and you're in game and lost cole to montreal, every offseason it's either "if everything goes right...." or "it sucks now, but don't worry, winning is coming!".

you put the onus of self rationalization on the fanbase year after year, everyone starts to figure out what's up.

"I'm through convincing myself to invest my time, my money, and my emotional energy in this team. Convince me otherwise or I will take my business elsewhere."

and if we draw the line of analysing gm decisions based on, "is there a possible narrative this is a good idea?", there are virtually no bad decisions. it becomes so easy to justify any direction. But it's hard to know what a "good" trade is based solely on future results. Boston traded leading scorer joe thornton for junk because "leadership". they won a cup 5 years, with the only espaliered pieces Seids and Andrew Ference. good trade?

and i empathize with @tarheelhockey about defending actions now with potentialities.

skinner to buff, but then we flip the 2nd to san jose for aaron dell. good trade? I'm fine with it.

skinner to buff, flip the 2nd to san jose for aaron dell in october, good offseason? .....

all that said: skinner circa 17-18 was a 50 point net negative at es whose presence required assiduous micromanagement which affected everyone else. we're not bemoaning the loss of that skinner but the guy who scored 37 playing with ahlers and no pp time.

the former could be replaced internally. warren foegele scores 10 less points, but allows 15 less goals in standard 3rd line deployment- improvement while saving 3 mil.

i don't view us as necessarily too far away from where we were last year- a good goalie away from usurping nj/phi/Columbus into a playoff spot. the largest factor is hcrba- the above was under peters. was he holding them back, as intimated? or did he have them playing better than the sum of their parts?

if hcrba works out and, yet again, we're a good team held back by goaltending- i draw the line at not doing something. even if it's calling up freaking ned, i can't watch another year were the boat sinks and from the outside looking in it appears everyone involved does nothing to stop it.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I agree with Tarheel, because this regime change has just been so heavy handed on its narrative of culture change. It really does feel like change for the sake of change even when the moves make sense. Which is weird.

With respect to Skinner, I don't think all of trading Skinner was "change for the sake of change", but I think the timing probably was.

Even before this offseason, I thought the chances of Skinner being a Hurricane after this year were very slim to almost non-existent. Either he'd command a salary that the Canes (rightfully) wouldn't be willing to pay or he'd want to move on himself. So my view was that he'd be a Hurricane at most, 1 more season and the Canes were going to move him at some point rather than lose him for nothing. That part of it is "asset management" and not just trying to make changes.

Secondly, like it or not, he was basically a rental, so knowing they were going to trade him, the return was very likely to be a would be rental type return, which is usually picks and prospects. I didn't expect that if Skinner was moved, it would be for a roster player because why would another team do that (or if they did, it would be a much lesser roster player). I was surprised, and a bit disappointed that it didn't include a 1st, but his NMC and the Canes desire to get this done probably dictated that. Brindy didn't seem to be very high on Skinner so that probably dictated them not holding on to Skinner til the deadline.

To me it feels like limbo, and unsettling. We still have Faulk which we all know isn’t the plan. So that’s in the air. The goaltending is in the air. No one wants to just waste a season. I agree we could use the season to just start so we at least have more tangible things to ***** about.

Amen to that. With this goaltending duo, I don't expect this team to be a playoff team, but part of me is excited to see what some of these new pieces do.

 

[Joe McGrath]

There was no "fixing" the goaltending, true. But we've somehow made it worse. A Ward/Darling duo is better than a Darling/Mrazek one. Because out of the three of them, Ward is the least likely to **** the bed in horrendeous ways on any given night.

We've gone from "Well, if Darling really is that bad, at least we've got a goaltender that's going to give the team a chance to win every night" to "Well, if Darling really is that bad, better hope Mrazek doesn't repeat last year as well!"

Mrazek’s SV% last year .902. Cam Ward’s .905.

Not a whole lot different.

If I told you one of those two guys was going to have a respectable SV% (over .912) would it be the guy who was .910 in Detroit the last 2 years and over .920 the year before or the guy who hasn’t been at that level since Svechnikov was 12?

 

[Unsustainable]

I am excited for this season, I was pretty optimistic going into last season, but this seems like the turn over is going to pay off.

The defense is solid, I hope Darling shows why we wanted him, and Mzarek deserves a redemption season.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

What's going on with the boards today that when you post a reply it just sits there even thoguht it does post it? I think some are hitting "post reply" again as I'm seeing some duplicates as well.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

Mrazek’s SV% last year .902. Cam Ward’s .905.

Not a whole lot different.

If I told you one of those two guys was going to have a respectable SV% (over .912) would it be the guy who was .910 in Detroit the last 2 years and over .920 the year before or the guy who hasn’t been at that level since Svechnikov was 12?

I'd go with the guy that's played behind this team for his career. Since apparently every other goalie we grab forgets how to make a save the minute they put on the uniform

 

[tarheelhockey]

What's going on with the boards today that when you post a reply it just sits there even thoguht it does post it? I think some are hitting "post reply" again as I'm seeing some duplicates as well.

The servers shut down after they heard what we got back for Skinner.

 

[Joe McGrath]

I'd go with the guy that's played behind this team for his career. Since apparently every other goalie we grab forgets how to make a save the minute they put on the uniform

So you’d go with the guy who has a 0% chance of even being average? Seems like a great way to make sure you finish just outside a playoff spot. I’d much rather they fail spectacularly than another year of being on the bubble.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

So you’d go with the guy who has a 0% chance of even being average? Seems like a great way to make sure you finish just outside a playoff spot. I’d much rather they fail spectacularly than another year of being on the bubble.

Normally, I'd agree. But I think if they fail spectacularly, that fear of a full-blown rebuild rears its ugly head again. Which amounts to wasting the best years of Slavin, Pesce, and Aho's careers, as well as maintaining that "losing culture" this organization is trying to get away from.

 

[sheriff bart]

Too much to read here, so I just blind liked everything.

 

[emptyNedder]

Mrazek’s SV% last year .902. Cam Ward’s .905.

Not a whole lot different.

If I told you one of those two guys was going to have a respectable SV% (over .912) would it be the guy who was .910 in Detroit the last 2 years and over .920 the year before or the guy who hasn’t been at that level since Svechnikov was 12?

I think Cam will be above .912 in Chicago. For the past for four years Canes' goalies have had their worst seasons. It was something about the system.

Go to hockeyviz and look at the Standardized Goals Against article. It is the most detailed analysis of goalie performance I have ever read. It looks at the 16-17 season. Ward's save % was .905. Which was near the bottom of the league. Yet this multi-variant analysis indicates that Ward was slightly above league average (and Lack that year was even a little better).

My guess is that was true for most of the last 6 years. So don't be surprised that Ward's save % (which seems like the one number most fans think proves goalie quality) is .912 or better this year.

 

[My Special Purpose]

Fourth, who cares what they’re paying Schneider? They’re spending money to have a WAY better goalie than us. That sounds like a very good idea to me.

In your first sentence, you make a logical point that regardless of salary, NJ has better goaltending than we do. Fair enough. I gave NJ the edge at both goalie spots. But then in the second and third sentence, you suggest they have better goaltending because they're spending more. My original point didn't take into account money. All I was trying to do is to point out to you -- and a few others -- that the Hurricanes aren't as bad off as you're making them out to be, and that we actually compare quite favorably with a team we're going to have to compete with directly for a playoff spot. I didn't want to get into the how's and why's off roster building, only that ours is pretty decent, and our "glaring holes" aren't as glaring as they may seem when you compare us to another team in our division.

My point in response to your claim that paying $2 million more for much better goaltending wss that *if we're going to count money,* Schneider is really not all that different than Darling. He's a below average goalie with a horrible contract and I'm not sure how he solves anything. Would I feel better writing in Schneider instead of Darling? Of course I would. But does he solve anything or guarantee the playoffs? Nope. And for $24 million, plus the cost of acquiring him, we shouldn't take that chance.

 

[My Special Purpose]

The Devil’s had the league mvp. Literally the best guy in the league at making a difference this last year. They also have goaltending. Those are bigger differences than checking a box. They’re bigger than the difference between Staal and Zajac. Some of those matchups have to be weighted more than others.

Like the difference at each position on defense? Those should be *heavily* weighed to us. I mean, would you rather have Hall with NJ's defense or Aho with ours? I know which way I'd go.

Anyways I don’t know how Svech has the edge over Hishier. If Svech puts up a matching season I’m doing cartwheels. He hasn’t played a game so I don’t see how you can give him the edge. I’d also take Palmieri over TT but that’s all personal preference, I guess I could see an argument the other way. I just don’t agree.

Which is why I called Palmeiri/Teravainen a push. If you want, I can call Svech/Hischier a push, too, and it doesn't change my point, which was that despite all the "sky is falling" takes, we're actually look pretty darn good at this point.

 

[tarheelhockey]

In your first sentence, you make a logical point that regardless of salary, NJ has better goaltending than we do. Fair enough. I gave NJ the edge at both goalie spots. But then in the second and third sentence, you suggest they have better goaltending because they're spending more. My original point didn't take into account money. All I wadd trying to do is to point out to you -- and a few others -- that the Hurricanes aren't as bad off as you're making them out to be, and that we actually compare quite favorably with a team we're going to have to compete with directly for a playoff spot. I didn't want to get into the how's and why's off roster building, only that ours is pretty decent, and our "glaring holes" aren't as glaring as they may seem when you compare us to another team in our division.

My point in response to your claim that playing $2 million more for much better goaltending wss that *if we're going to count money,* Schneider is really not all that different than Darling. He's a below average goalie with a horrible contract and I'm not sure how he solves anything. Would I feel better writing in Schneider instead of Darling? Of course I would. But does he solve anything or guarantee the playoffs? Nope. And for $24 million, we shouldn't take that chance.

To be fair, it’s not that they have better goaltending because they spent more money. It’s that they identified a problem in goal, correctly identified a solution, successfully pursued that solution aggressively, and then at the last stage of the process they spent money to lock that solution into place. Meanwhile we have run through goalies like Hollywood marriages.

Schneider has had a rough couple of years, but he ****s all over Scott Darling. The $2M difference between them is negligible in light of the difference in performance, especially when you consider that the difference in the two teams’ goaltending was pretty directly tied to which one made the playoffs last year and which one missed.

 

[Sens1Canes2]

To be fair, it’s not that they have better goaltending because they spent more money. It’s that they identified a problem in goal, correctly identified a solution, successfully pursued that solution aggressively, and then at the last stage of the process they spent money to lock that solution into place. Meanwhile we have run through goalies like Hollywood marriages.

Schneider has had a rough couple of years, but he ****s all over Scott Darling. The $2M difference between them is negligible in light of the difference in performance, especially when you consider that the difference in the two teams’ goaltending was pretty directly tied to which one made the playoffs last year and which one missed.

He shits all over Darling, last year. This season cannot be as bad. It’s almost an impossibility.

 

[tarheelhockey]

He ****s all over Darling, last year. This season cannot be as bad. It’s almost an impossibility.

It was a bad year for Schneider too. In a good year he’s a Vezina contender, something Darling has no hope of being even in an ideal scenario.

 

[Ole Gil]

He ****s all over Darling, last year. This season cannot be as bad. It’s almost an impossibility.

Hold my O’doul’s.