Should Theo Fleury be in the HOF?

[Paper]

I think their stats are very comparable with Theo having scored at a higher rate per game, was more physical, scored more goals, played in more all star games, scored more hat tricks, had more even strength goals, etc MSL had one single 40 goal season. Theo had three 40 goal seasons and a 50 goal season.

They played in different eras though. At no point did Fleury finish in the top five for scoring. How often do the best (offensive presumably we mean) players ever not even make the top 5 once? He finished 40th a couple times though...

Like Fleury's best goal scoring season was his 51 goals...where he finished just a measly 35 goals behind Hull's 86.

 

[NickyFotiu]

You'll have to consider splitting your second comment. Not everyone agrees that he should not be in the HOF. Many are saying that they believe they understand the reason why he's being black balled. It's not like most of us have any say in it anyways.

IMO, the vast majority of his off ice stuff is nothing. He cardinal sin was the fact that he basically attacked or put the league in a bad light (ie: The failing substance abuse comments) and attacking or putting certain NHL clubs/owners/management in a bad light (in hinting they abandoned him for a variety of inflammatory reasons). The attacking/put downs of other NHL players and the long list of other stuff is basically just extra evidence perhaps to a decision already decided due to the cardinal sins he has committed.

IMO, if he had retracted his statements against the league/substance abuse program/NHL orgs and management/owners and then stayed quiet about those topics, he'd be retired in the HHOF and in Calgary (albeit he's technically unofficially retired in Calgary and recognized under the forever a Flame program). Heck, even if he didn't retract and was super quiet, he'd likely be retired.

But the guy has his opinions and a huge ego. When Iggy was recognized by the Flames, he commented with a lack lustre congratulations and used Iggy to remind people on twitter how great a player he was. He didn't even spell Iggy's name correctly in his tweet!
If he was given a HHOF soap box to shout off of, it would be a heck of a headache for the league. As I mentioned, I can kinda see why many in the league don't want to give him the opportunity to have that type of soap box to yell off of. Rightfully or wrongfully, I think that's why the league is keeping him out.

I understand your points and they are valid but you basically summarized it in 2 words. Words that often show wrong doing. I bolded those 2 words.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Those are mostly sportswriter given awards. What about their actual production on the ice?

Top 10 points:

St Louis - 1,1,2,5,6
Fleury - 6,7,8

Top 10 goals:

St Louis - 4,5
Fleury - 2,6,7

Top 10 assists:

St Louis - 1,1,2,5,7,9
Fleury - 6,7

Since you want to ignore the big divide in trophies, lets just use the above equally big divide in on ice performance

 

[NickyFotiu]

They played in different eras though. At no point did Fleury finish in the top five for scoring. How often do the best (offensive presumably we mean) players ever not even make the top 5 once? He finished 40th a couple times though...

Like Fleury's best goal scoring season was his 51 goals...where he finished just a measly 35 goals behind Hull's 86.

How many people all time have scored 86 in Hull in a season? Theo was actually second in the NHL with 51 goals that season. How close were guys like Bobby Clarke to Wayne Gretzkys 212 points? How many guys were close to McDavids 100 point season this year?

 

[Paper]

How many people all time have scored 86 in Hull in a season? Theo was actually second in the NHL with 51 goals that season. How close were guys like Bobby Clarke to Wayne Gretzkys 212 points? How many guys were close to McDavids 100 point season this year?

"Second" tied with several others with more games played. But the point is that you can't compare between different eras like you were doing. It's clear by accolades, and by actual finishing position, that St. Louis is no where comparable to Fleury, he's so much better.

Also Cheechoo actually lead the league. HHOF?

 

[NickyFotiu]

Top 10 points:

St Louis - 1,1,2,5,6
Fleury - 6,7,8

Top 10 goals:

St Louis - 4,5
Fleury - 2,6,7

Top 10 assists:

St Louis - 1,1,2,5,7,9
Fleury - 6,7

Since you want to ignore the big divide in trophies, lets just use the above equally big divide in on ice performance

Yes Theo played against some all time great scorers like Jagr, Gretzky, and Mario.

 

[NickyFotiu]

"Second" tied with several others with more games played. But the point is that you can't compare between different eras like you were doing. It's clear by accolades, and by actual finishing position, that St. Louis is no where comparable to Fleury, he's so much better.

Also Cheechoo actually lead the league. HHOF?

Tied with several other players? Please name the several other players he was tied with at 51 goals. I see two. Cam Neely and Yzermen (both in the HOF). I will wait for you to name all the others he was tied with.

So much better? Yeah sure. I liked both players. Both played for my Rangers but there is no way MSL was so much better.

 

[Paper]

At least better enough to be a HHOF candidate, unlike Fleury.

 

[PoutineSp00nZ]

They played in different eras though. At no point did Fleury finish in the top five for scoring. How often do the best (offensive presumably we mean) players ever not even make the top 5 once? He finished 40th a couple times though...

Like Fleury's best goal scoring season was his 51 goals...where he finished just a measly 35 goals behind Hull's 86.

He also played in a league with Wayne Gretzky and Mario lemieux.

The level of elite star power in the NHL in the late 80s and early 90s has never been equaled.

 

[The Kingslayer]

He should be.

 

[Tuna99]

Yes Theo should be.

side note - one of the most fun players to watch. Ever.

 

[Fig]

I understand your points and they are valid but you basically summarized it in 2 words. Words that often show wrong doing. I bolded those 2 words.

Agreed. Albeit I do think it's important to focus on the specifics of the perceived wrong doing and explain what is legit and what is probably just noise.

There are those that perhaps think that Theo did wrong. There is perhaps an opinion that Theo could further do wrong against the league if inducted into the HHOF at this point in time.

I think that in the end Theoren Fleury's name will be in the HHOF. However, lots of time has passed and it seems like there's enough evidence to believe that inducting him right now could end up becoming a detriment to the game. He will likely be inducted once he mellows out a bit. If you look at his twitter bio and certain posts that are hockey related, there seemingly is no doubt he'd use a HHOF induction as part of the ego/clout to have his opinions heard.

We've already kinda seen certain current NHL players get into hot water for stuff they say publicly. For former players, if anyone perceived that Carcillo was difficult to ignore and frustrating to deal with in terms of his criticisms against the league, I have no doubt that a HHOF Fleury would be much worse than Carcillo, should he decide he wants to make comments about the NHL. Even when he is correct, his delivery of his opinion is seriously problematic. He's a bit of a loose cannon. You don't go and take a cannon that can potentially fire at any time and put it indoors or on your property if you have to.

Semantics argument, but some off ice comments also are loosely tied to on ice stuff. Having a guy in the HHOF and openly saying stuff like he failed 13 consecutive tests while a player in the league (which the league denies) is not good at all. It's actually irreversibly damaging.

 

[Paper]

In comparison to other forwards in the HOF, his production and career arc are very similar to Paul Kariya's.

Even Kariya finished top 5 in 97,99, 2000 (98 he missed most of the season).

In particular Kariya finished top 3 in 97 despite only playing 69 games.

During that five year stretch between 1995-1996 and 1999-2000, Kariya's 425 points in 329 games for a 1.29 points/game put him only behind Lemieux (1.94), Jagr (1.55) and Lindro (1.33). And his individual hardware is lacking but he's still got Theo crushed with his:

3x First All-Star Team
2x Second All-Star Team


Again, Fleury has 0 top 5 finishes and one Second All-Star Team which means he has less individual hardware than say someone like Mike Green. Tied with the likes of Cechmanek...

 

[Paper]

He also played in a league with Wayne Gretzky and Mario lemieux.

The level of elite star power in the NHL in the late 80s and early 90s has never been equaled.

Good thing St. Louis never had to go up against Ovechkin or Crosby then...

I mean even Zhamnov was able to finish in the top 5 in 1995. What's Fleury's excuse there?

If the star power was so insane during the 80/90 and Fleury wasn't one of them, I think that's good enough reason to exclude him anyways.

Removing Gretzky/Lemieux and Crosby/Ovechkin from the scoring and these are the new top 5 finishes.

St.Louis: First, First, Second, Fourth, Fourth
Fleury: Crickets...

 

[NickyFotiu]

Good thing St. Louis never had to go up against Ovechkin or Crosby then...

I mean even Zhamnov was able to finish in the top 5 in 1995. What's Fleury's excuse there?

If the star power was so insane during the 80/90 and Fleury wasn't one of them, I think that's good enough reason to exclude him anyways.

This top 5 in points stuff is just a cherry picked red hearing for a guy who is one of the top 58 goal scorers of all time. How many times did Cam Neely come in top 5 in points? 0? How many times did Mike Gartner come in top 5 in points? 0 in fact he only finished in the top 10 once. Does that mean he should not be in the HOF? Why would top 5 be some sort of HOF cutoff. Because Theo finished 6th-7th and 8th instead of 5th? So the season Theo finished tied for 6th he was 1 point away from being top 5. When he finished 7th he was 3 points behind Joe Sakic at 5th. That is your basis for him not being in the HOF? Really?

You also know Theo was top 2 in goals but some how that is not worthy?

 

[NickyFotiu]

A person keeps bringing up that Theo only made 1 All NHL 2nd team (voted by media).

Well who were the RW making it ahead of him in his prime? All but Mogilny are already in the HOF.
Jagr?
Hull?
Neely?
Selane?
Rechi?
Mogilny?

 

[Paper]

You also know Theo was top 2 in goals but some how that is not worthy?

Okay so Theo was top 4 in goals and that makes him worthy. So go make a thread asking why Cheechoo who finished 1st isn't in the HHOF.

Also it's not just top 5 finishes. That was just in response to someone claiming he was one of the best players ever. It's also about individual accolades. We've gone over this. Fleury has a single "trophy" a 2nd all-star team. Neely did that 4 times, plus has his unofficial "50 in 50". And more importantly his acting career.

 

[Paper]

A person keeps bringing up that Theo only made 1 All NHL 2nd team (voted by media).

Well who were the RW making it ahead of him in his prime? All but Mogilny are already in the HOF.
Jagr?
Hull?
Neely?
Selane?
Rechi?
Mogilny?

Yes, the better players who were better than Fleury made the hall, except Mogilny. What's the point?

So if we remove Gretzky, Lemieux and Jagr. Plus all the RW who were better than Fleury, and for good measures all the other forwards in the league, and let's just take out Larry Murphy because f*** him, yes he starts to look like he might be HHOF worthy. But they exist so okay? Yes, Fleury was a tier below the all-stars he played with.

 

[Reinhart]

I don't think he belongs in the HHOF. Wasn't at that level that I feel that players should be, and there are players there that probably shouldn't have been, and I don't want more to be added. Fleury was a great (and incredibly selfish) player. Sure. But he wasn't great enough IMO. Add to his off-ice issues, and it becomes harder to cheer for him. Add in his personality and his antics even today in social media, and it is a firm no from me. I just don't see him being HHOF worthy to begin with, with a chance to have it blow up in the NHL's faces.

 

[ItsFineImFine]

There are worse players than him that are in. There are very few if any eligible forwards better than him who are not in.

 

[filinski77]

He also played in a league with Wayne Gretzky and Mario lemieux.

The level of elite star power in the NHL in the late 80s and early 90s has never been equaled.

Fleury's point finishes: 6/7/8
Fleury's point finishes if you removed Gretzky and Lemieux: 5/7/7

A 6th to a 5th and a 8th to a 7th really pushes him into the HOF. Look at the point finishes of a guy like Kessel: 6/6/7/7. Fleury is so damn overrated LOL.

 

[boompuffboom]

i think stats wise and all yes.

i think the league isn't ready to forget about the shots fired though.

i just wish they made peace, i think a lot of people would benefit from that, and i'm not talking about public relations here. I'm talking about a player who had/has legions of fans, an NHL star with a great pedigree who would deserve a place among the greats of our sport, and also a chance for the league to acknowledge the immense challenges Fleury had to overcome.

And then, although it's a hard subject to bring up, i think especially in these times, healing and forgiveness is something we should all allow ourselves to have and share with one another.

 

[Cats2TheCup]

Shit personality. Burned bridges everywhere he went. Weirdo conspiracy theorist. No thanks.

Has nothing to do with Hockey. Ridiculous thing to say.

 

[wetcoast]

to be precise about this, on jan 1, 2001, fleury was leading the league in scoring, four points up on sakic in one more game

NHL Stats


the last day fleury was leading the league was january 6, 2001, tied with sakic, both with 41 games

NHL Stats


fleury didn't enter the program until february 28, 2001.


but obviously he was playing unbelievable hockey until he started to lose control of his life

When he was at his best he was very good and a lot better than quite a few post expansion wingers already in the HHOF.

The sad fact is that the voting committee probably can’t get over his persona, which is very irritating at best but after what he endured in terms of abuse it really isn’t fair for him to be judged that way but it is what it is.

It wouldn’t surprise me that he gets in sometime in the future but sadly it will probably be after he finally finds some peace.

 

[hoglund]

I'm surprised he is not. He was a legit weapon. A legit 7 time all star. A guy who scored a point a game in over a 1000 regular season games. He was also a point per game playoff scorer. He did all that at 5 foot 6 inches. I would really like to see him in the HOF. Especially with all he had to overcome.

I honestly thought that he was in the hall of fame, he certainly should be.