Should Theo Fleury be in the HOF?

[KingDeathMetal]

Abso-f**ng-lutely.

 

[elitepete]

Nope.

 

[3B]

He should be in the HOF as far as his numbers and career accomplishments are concerned. As has been mentioned already, seems to have burnt bridges all over the place and that's the most likely reason he is not a Hall of Famer. All the personal stuff aside the numbers are simply there to warrant his election.

 

[ecemleafs]

Belfast Giants greatest ever player so its a yes for me.....Fleury was also my favorite player before signing with the rangers so you could imagine how excited i was when he signed with the rangers as a free agent.

 

[NickyFotiu]

I can only imagine the type of career he could have had if he had not been haunted by the abuse he endured as a young man. He is borderline. Once he was traded to Colorado he went downhill fast.

He had some ups and downs as a Ranger but I really enjoyed him on our FLY line with Eric Lindros and Mike York.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Player A
1006 regular season games = 441 goals + 571 assists for 1,012 pts
107 playoff games = 45 goals + 66 assists for 111 pts
1 Stanley Cup

vs

Player B
1084 regular season games = 455 goals + 633 assists for 1,088 pts
77 playoff games = 34 goals + 45 assists for 79 pts
1 Stanley Cup

If Player A is not a HOF then player B is certainly not a HOF

Player A is Steve Larmer
Player B is Theo Fleury

Would you put MSL in the HOF?

 

[Tkachuk4MVP]

nope.

part of being a hall of famer includes showing class not acting like a clown or a arrogant pos. this guys does not go in the HOF.

Like Bobby Hull?

Theo should be in. He was a better player than many of the guys who are already in (perhaps there’s an argument that the voting should be more selective), and I personally don’t give a crap about his political views.

 

[Fig]

This is a strange take. Literally no one alive would know Paul Henderson's name if it wasn't for his awesome performance against the Soviets. Every hockey fan in the world knows Theodore Fleury's name...for good reason.

I'm a Leaf fan BTW.

Umm... Theoren, not Theodore. But your point still stands.

He should be based on talent, drive and what he had to overcome but he he keeps shooting himself in the foot. The league is taking drug and mental issues a little bit more serious now but in his time they just wanted problem players to shut up and go away (they still kind of do).

If he kept himself clean and avoided controversy he would probably have his number retired in Calgary right now.

I think he only needed to stop attacking league officials and owners and he would have been retired. I don't even think he had to completely avoid controversy and keep himself completely clean.

I'm guessing mental health wasn't great for him and substance abuse wasn't helpful either, but in hindsight, I wonder if there's some concussion issues mixed in there as well.

 

[brentashton]

Exciting player at times, represented his country a few times in international competition, won one SC, troubled on/off ice career in latter years, Absolutely awful experience at the hands of Graham James as a minor which I think he has now been able to move forward on thankfully for his one mental and physical well being, no major awards or individual achievements (I think he was a 2nd team all star once). All that said, hard NO on the HHOF nomination. I just don’t see the complete bundle of career accomplishments overall to make that case. And please dont compare him to others in the hall that shouldn’t be there either. The HHOF has a history of nominating some “very goods” to the hall (see Kevin Lowe as exhibit A), but two wrongs dont make a right.

 

[ShelbyZ]

In comparison to other forwards in the HOF, his production and career arc are very similar to Paul Kariya's.

 

[Jeune Poulet]

His on-ice accomplishments alone are impressive considering the clutch and grab-era he played in, how lenient the referees were and how much of a premium was put on size and power at the time.

When you take into consideration everything he battled through, it's an impressive journey. Not always perfect but very inspiring.

 

[NickyFotiu]

If you read this thread around 100% of the people that say yes Theo should be in the HOF speak about his actual playing career.

On the other hand the overwhelming majority of the people that say no he should not be in the HOF have posts speaking about stuff Theo has said not what he actually did on the ice.

 

[filinski77]

Nope. From an offensive perspective, he's pretty much Phil Kessel.

 

[Be a Hab]

Shit personality. Burned bridges everywhere he went. Weirdo conspiracy theorist. No thanks.

Read his book: Playing with fire. It's an absolutely good read and talks about his off ice issues.

 

[Be a Hab]

Yes, he should be a Hall of famer.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Would you put MSL in the HOF?

St Louis is on another level from Fleury, and its not close.

MSL:

1x Hart
2x Ross
1x Pearson
1x AS-1
4x AS-2

Fleury:

0 Hart
0 Ross
0 Pearson
o AS-1
1x AS-2

 

[Paper]

Every hockey fan in the world knows Theodore Fleury's name...for good reason.

Well except one.

 

[86Habs]

Fleury has contracted a case of Curt Schilling Disease...a borderline hall-of-famer whose post-career personal politics and bridge-burning has given hall-of-fame voters every excuse they need to exclude him.

 

[NickyFotiu]

St Louis is on another level from Fleury, and its not close.

MSL:

1x Hart
2x Ross
1x Pearson
1x AS-1
4x AS-2

Fleury:

0 Hart
0 Ross
0 Pearson
o AS-1
1x AS-2

Those are mostly sportswriter given awards. What about their actual production on the ice?

 

[Paper]

Reminder: he was leading the league with something like 70 points in January(!) the year he had to go into the substance abuse program.

He was fourth in the league with 74 points at the end of February and 14 points back of Sakic. So not the greatest reminder.

 

[Paper]

Those are mostly sportswriter given awards. What about their actual production on the ice?

He has 0 finishes in the top 5 in his career. St. Louis finished first..twice.

Also the Pearson is selected by players.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

if we're talking just on-ice accomplishments, imo theo is way above the "two wrongs don't make a right" threshold.

like, i think you don't want to repeat these total mistake inductions like clark gillies or dick duff, or dave andreychuk. those are you low-rung hall of fame wingers. those are the guys where you easily could have inducted john tonelli, bobby rousseau, and peter bondra instead of those three and it would have made zero difference.

if you look at fleury's career, here are his accomplishments, spread out half over a high scoring environment, and half over a low scoring one —

3 x one of the top three RWs in the league: 1991, 1995 (2nd), 1998

3 x top ten scorer: 1991 (8th), 1995 (6th), 1998 (7th)

his playoff record is outstanding:

he's in the top 30 all time in career playoff points/game (minimum 25 games) —

	Player	GP	G	A	P	P/G
1	Wayne Gretzky	208	122	260	382	1.84
2	Mario Lemieux	107	76	96	172	1.61
3	Barry Pederson	34	22	30	52	1.53
4	Nathan MacKinnon	50	28	41	69	1.38
5	Mark Messier	236	109	186	295	1.25
6	Mike Bossy	129	85	75	160	1.24
6	Bobby Orr	74	26	66	92	1.24
8	Mikko Rantanen	43	18	34	52	1.21
9	Jari Kurri	200	106	127	233	1.17
10	Brayden Point	63	36	37	73	1.16
11	Nikita Kucherov	109	43	82	125	1.15
12	Gilbert Perreault	90	33	70	103	1.14
13	Peter Forsberg	151	64	107	171	1.13
13	Peter Stastny	93	33	72	105	1.13
15	Bernie Federko	91	35	66	101	1.11
16	Sidney Crosby	174	69	122	191	1.1
17	Jean Beliveau	162	79	97	176	1.09
17	Pavel Bure	64	35	35	70	1.09
17	Joe Sakic	172	84	104	188	1.09
20	Bobby Hull	119	62	67	129	1.08
20	Eric Lindros	53	24	33	57	1.08
20	David Pastrnak	63	27	41	68	1.08
23	Toe Blake	58	25	37	62	1.07
24	Ken Linseman	113	43	77	120	1.06
24	Dennis Maruk	34	14	22	36	1.06
26	Phil Esposito	130	61	76	137	1.05
26	Guy Lafleur	128	58	76	134	1.05
28	Denis Savard	169	66	109	175	1.04
29	Sebastian Aho	34	14	21	35	1.03
29	Theo Fleury	77	34	45	79	1.03
29	Doug Gilmour	182	60	128	188	1.03
29	Kevin Stevens	103	46	60	106	1.03

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

if you cut off his rookie year, when he scored 11 points in 22 games from on the fourth line en route to the cup, he is tied with sakic for 4th playoff points/game (minimum 5 games) for the entire decade of the '90s, between 1990 and 1999 —

	Player	GP	G	A	P	P/G
1	Mario Lemieux	78	58	78	136	1.74
2	Wayne Gretzky	77	36	72	108	1.4
3	Pat LaFontaine	21	12	16	28	1.33
4	Theo Fleury	55	29	39	68	1.24
4	Joe Sakic	76	41	53	94	1.24

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

and if you whittle down even further to just fleury's best five years (1991 to 1995) —

	Player	GP	G	A	P	P/G
1	Mario Lemieux	55	44	59	103	1.87
2	Theo Fleury	27	20	23	43	1.59
3	Wayne Gretzky	42	21	41	62	1.48
4	Pat LaFontaine	19	12	15	27	1.42
4	Mark Recchi	24	10	24	34	1.42

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

this is fleury's big game resume. he captained the 1988 WJC team that beat fedorov and mogilny for the gold. months later, he graduated from junior and joined calgary's IHL team, where he scored two points/game to lead them to the turner cup. the year after, he made the NHL midway through the year and helped calgary to the finals, scoring three GWGs in that run including the tie-breaker in the 3-2 game one of the finals win. then he proceeded to have one of the most memorable playoff primes of his generation, albeit on teams that didn't go far (for absolutely no fault of his own). along the way, he picked up a world championships and world cup silver, a canada cup, and an olympic gold. as long as he was in the league, he was never left off a best on best team canada. there's not a lot of guys you can say that about.

if you consider that his former teammates joe mullen and lanny mcdonald were first ballot hall of famers, those are his comparables. resumes are similar, numbers are similar, and fleury was more of a main guy on his teams than either of them were. for a more recent guy, i'd throw marian hossa in there as a comp. hossa has more cups and obviously lasted longer, but in terms of scoring top tens, top 3s at RW, they're very similar resumes. you could make a similar argument with alfredsson, who i think is a pretty inevitable hall of famer.

if you want to make the argument that these players don't belong in the hall, i can agree that the bar needs to be higher. but you're chucking a lot of guys out if you're leaving out a guy at fleury's level.

 

[Fig]

If you read this thread around 100% of the people that say yes Theo should be in the HOF speak about his actual playing career.

On the other hand the overwhelming majority of the people that say no he should not be in the HOF have posts speaking about stuff Theo has said not what he actually did on the ice.

You'll have to consider splitting your second comment. Not everyone agrees that he should not be in the HOF. Many are saying that they believe they understand the reason why he's being black balled. It's not like most of us have any say in it anyways.

IMO, the vast majority of his off ice stuff is nothing. He cardinal sin was the fact that he basically attacked or put the league in a bad light (ie: The failing substance abuse comments) and attacking or putting certain NHL clubs/owners/management in a bad light (in hinting they abandoned him for a variety of inflammatory reasons). The attacking/put downs of other NHL players and the long list of other stuff is basically just extra evidence perhaps to a decision already decided due to the cardinal sins he has committed.

IMO, if he had retracted his statements against the league/substance abuse program/NHL orgs and management/owners and then stayed quiet about those topics, he'd be retired in the HHOF and in Calgary (albeit he's technically unofficially retired in Calgary and recognized under the forever a Flame program). Heck, even if he didn't retract and was super quiet, he'd likely be retired.

But the guy has his opinions and a huge ego. When Iggy was recognized by the Flames, he commented with a lack lustre congratulations and used Iggy to remind people on twitter how great a player he was. He didn't even spell Iggy's name correctly in his tweet!
If he was given a HHOF soap box to shout off of, it would be a heck of a headache for the league. As I mentioned, I can kinda see why many in the league don't want to give him the opportunity to have that type of soap box to yell off of. Rightfully or wrongfully, I think that's why the league is keeping him out.

 

[NickyFotiu]

He has 0 finishes in the top 5 in his career. St. Louis finished first..twice.

Also the Pearson is selected by players.

I think their stats are very comparable with Theo having scored at a higher rate per game, was more physical, scored more goals, played in more all star games, scored more hat tricks, had more even strength goals, etc MSL had one single 40 goal season. Theo had three 40 goal seasons and a 50 goal season.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

He was fourth in the league with 74 points at the end of February and 14 points back of Sakic. So not the greatest reminder.

to be precise about this, on jan 1, 2001, fleury was leading the league in scoring, four points up on sakic in one more game

NHL Stats


the last day fleury was leading the league was january 6, 2001, tied with sakic, both with 41 games

NHL Stats


fleury didn't enter the program until february 28, 2001.


but obviously he was playing unbelievable hockey until he started to lose control of his life