Should Theo Fleury be in the HOF?

[frisco]

Not to belabor the point - but are you really going to argue that Jarome Iginla (who made the playoffs 8 times in 20 regular seasons) is bad because he played for a poorly-run franchise? There are a bunch of actual/potential Hall of Fame forwards have a "success rate" of at/under 50% - Mario Lemieux, Marcel Dionne, Eric Lindros, Martin St. Louis, Andy Bathgate, Anze Kopitar (so far), Paul Kariya, Eric Staal (so far), Ilya Kovalchuk, Bill Mosienko etc. (Yes there's some relevant context we need to consider in many of these cases - but if we're not digging into the details for Fleury, why do the same for anyone else?)

There are quite a few factors that go into judging a player. Playoff appearances are but one. But you shouldn't just ignore it outright, either. And if someone is posting on how well Fleury performed in the playoffs, I think it is fair to point out that he didn't really make the playoffs all that frequently. That's the other side of the story, so to speak.

My Best-Carey

 

[Hasa92]

Shit personality. Burned bridges everywhere he went. Weirdo conspiracy theorist. No thanks.

I mean that's true but what the hell does it have to do with him getting or not getting to the Hall?

 

[Albatros]

I mean that's true but what the hell does it have to do with him getting or not getting to the Hall?

"Playing ability, sportsmanship, character and contributions to his or her team or teams and to the game of hockey in general."

 

[Buck Naked]

3 SHG in one game. Put him in for that. That record will most likely never be broken unless the rules of the game changes.

 

[iamjs]

Every hockey fan in the world knows Theodore Fleury's name...for good reason.

I'm a Leaf fan BTW.

They should also know Theoren Fleury's name.

I was a huge fan of his when he played, but even I'll admit he's borderline.

The points (over 1 PPG for his career) check one box, and his postseason/international stats check another. But lack of individual awards (one 2nd team RW, but he also finished in the top 5 another five times [3,3,3,3,4] as a RW) kinda hurts his cause. Even looking at his single season stats, he only managed to finish inside the top 10 no more than three times in 15 years in each major scoring stat.

He's one of those where you understand if he gets in, but shrug your shoulders and go "yeah, that's true" if he doesn't, or vice versa depending on your stance.

 

[RobBrown4PM]

*Welp*

Just took a look at his social media accounts.

Guy was great playing hockey and was my icon growing up, to bad he's a wacko conspiricy nut job.

 

[Buffdog]

I didn't read the whole thread, but I'm wondering if people in here know his backstory.

He was molested by his junior coach Graham James starting at 14 years old. He's come out and written a book about the ordeal, thus shining a light onto a dark side of minor hockey. It was a courageous thing to do, all things considered. Maybe people could understand where his demons come from and cut him some slack.

When I was a kid a AAA coach was suspected of doing similar things. I was the last goalie cut on the team in bantam and the kid that made it over me was one of his (rumoured) victims. He's struggled with mental health and substance abuse issues ever since.

For all you dissing his character: you're victim shaming, plain and simple. And you should be ashamed of yourselves, especially if you haven't gone through what he has.

I'm not gonna say that he deserves to be in the hall soley based on his on-ice play... but if him going public saved one minor hockey player from being molested, then I can't find a good argument that his character didn't contribute to the game.

 

[Cotton]

Going through trauma at a young age doesn't excuse someone to spout hateful nonsense and harmful conspiracy theories.

Are you referencing anything specific? I just checked his Twitter out for the last few days and can’t see anything hateful or any conspiracy theories.

If Mats Sundin is in the HOF (which he is and should be) Theo Fleury absolutely should be.

 

[Bougieman]

He was my favorite player growing up. I've only ever had 4 favorite players since I started watching the game in 1985. I know a lot about him, I've read his book, followed who he is as a person via his public persona and watched most of the games he ever played in the NHL.

And I think he should NOT be in the hall of fame. If they put you in there for you on-ice accomplishments only, sure, but it's about so much more than that. You have to be a good person, and an amazing ambassador for the game. Theo is the kind of guy who is gonna tweet something racist or sexist or just some plain ol' stupid or DANGEROUS Q-anon conspiracy theory that embarrasses the entire league, and makes everyone who voted him into the HOF feel like utter fools. It's just who he is. He's a goof. An incredibly talented hockey player and a goof.

 

[Paper]

For all you dissing his character: you're victim shaming, plain and simple. And you should be ashamed of yourselves, especially if you haven't gone through what he has.

Giving someone a free pass on criticism because of past tragedies? Nah. People can still feel sympathy for someone, understand that they've gone through unspeakable things that may have shaped them, while also acknowledging their character today.

 

[K1984]

There's not enough sympathy for Theo. I disagree with most of everything he says, but it's also important to look into his background. Both of his parents were substance abusers. His is Metis and his grandmother is Cree. He grew up in extreme poverty and was subject to racism. This was exactly the kind of people monsters like Graham James preyed upon.

The issues with Theo's career being cut short are also exaggerated. He was 35 when his NHL career ended, and he'd played over 1000 games. Sure, he probably would have played in a reduced role for a few more years, if not for his substance abuse problems. Once again, a large part of that was outside of his control due to his background.

All that being said, I loved Fleury growing up, but his on ice accomplishments are borderline at best for the Hall.

Other players had adversity in their lives as well, but managed to not act like complete pieces of shit to the degree Theo did.

He's cleaned up his life it seems, which is good for him (despite the insane shit he barfs out on twitter), but all of his antics seem to be excused away, which I don't think is fair. He got his own kid hooked on drugs for Christ sakes.

 

[blankall]

Other players had adversity in their lives as well, but managed to not act like complete pieces of shit to the degree Theo did.

He's cleaned up his life it seems, which is good for him (despite the insane shit he barfs out on twitter), but all of his antics seem to be excused away, which I don't think is fair. He got his own kid hooked on drugs for Christ sakes.

I'm not excusing Theo. Just stating that people shouldn't be so quick to judge before walking a mile in his shoes. What Theo went through, between his background and the abuse was pretty awful, not just "adversity".

Also hilarious that you call out Theo because his kids have problems, but don't recognize that Theo inherited a lot of his problems from his own parents. That's how intergenerational trauma works.

 

[Chardo]

"Crackhead Theo" was a legendary chant at Islanders-Rangers games.

 

[Walkingthroughforest]

Character and reputation plays a significant role in induction. If Fleury had just faded into retirement after his 09 comeback attempt, I'd be the first one saying he should be in HHOF.

I'm not discounting that many of his problems come from his involvement in hockey, but what he's been doing post retirement, especially during the pandemic years is an automatic bar from ever getting into something like the HHOF. At a certain point you need to take responsibility for your life.

It was bad enough he trashed the Flames when he was cut from his PTO, when they were the only team willing to give him a chance to earn an NHL spot and gave him the dignity to retire as a Calgary Flame. However, how he has used his platform the last few years to actively spread harm and misinformation is a bridge too far.

I say this as a Flames fan, Theo Fleury should never have his number retired by the Calgary Flames and he should never be inducted into the HHOF.

 

[Jorma Heart]

It was bad enough he trashed the Flames when he was cut from his PTO, when they were the only team willing to give him a chance to earn an NHL spot and gave him the dignity to retire as a Calgary Flame. However, how he has used his platform the last few years to actively spread harm and misinformation is a bridge too far.

What trashing? I remember that he got offers from other teams but said that he would only represent Flames or retire.

He might be idiot but he's too cool of a player not to get selected. Superstar level player who was willing to drop gloves while being 168 cm was awesome. I'm sure he's been inspiration for a generation of smaller players

 

[Coaches Coroner]

1st ballot Cocaine Hall of Fame, and I could see a case being made for him getting in the Hockey Hall of Fame one day. I think the 2002 gold medal helps put him over the edge.

Character and reputation plays a significant role in induction.

Are you sure? I feel like guys like Dino Ciccerelli wouldn't have breezed into the Hall if that were the case.

 

[Wondercarrot]

Nut house or Hall of Fame - probably both.

 

[njdevils1982]

nice twitter.....what a f***ing headcase

 

[zodiacbiller]

1st ballot Cocaine Hall of Fame, and I could see a case being made for him getting in the Hockey Hall of Fame one day. I think the 2002 gold medal helps put him over the edge.


Are you sure? I feel like guys like Dino Ciccerelli wouldn't have breezed into the Hall if that were the case.

Dino Ciccarelli took eight years to get in despite having over 600 goals. More than that, Fleury (and Turgeon, also mentioned ITT) will struggle because when they talk about "character," they mean in terms of "how much did you piss off important hockey people." Turgeon could've been even better and wouldn't be in because he sat on the bench for Piestany, and Fleury's burned a turned of bridges and embarrassed a lot of people who trusted him.

My stance on OP's question is he was good enough but if you think he was too big a jerk, that's fine.

 

[Wondercarrot]

Are you referencing anything specific? I just checked his Twitter out for the last few days and can’t see anything hateful or any conspiracy theories.

If Mats Sundin is in the HOF (which he is and should be) Theo Fleury absolutely should be.

His entire feed is a dumping ground for every idiotic conspiracy theory out there.
I mean you can’t go 3 tweets in without some bat shittery being spewed out to other like minded idiots.

 

[zodiacbiller]

Are you referencing anything specific? I just checked his Twitter out for the last few days and can’t see anything hateful or any conspiracy theories.

If Mats Sundin is in the HOF (which he is and should be) Theo Fleury absolutely should be.

Sundin was significantly better than Fleury lol.

 

[AlainVigneaultsGum]

Hall of very good.

 

[mr figgles]

He could some day in a weak year, but there’s 100 guys right there with him that are as deserving.

 

[Walkingthroughforest]

What trashing? I remember that he got offers from other teams but said that he would only represent Flames or retire.

He might be idiot but he's too cool of a player not to get selected. Superstar level player who was willing to drop gloves while being 168 cm was awesome. I'm sure he's been inspiration for a generation of smaller players

No other team was offering him a PTO and he was just not good enough to crack the lineup. Head and hands were there, but his body couldn’t keep up with the game.

Instead of being humble he trashed Darryl, Brent, and his teammates on the way out. “Historic Shootout Goal” lol. Get bent, Theo.

Here’s what Fleury said a few months after the Flames gave him a retirement press conference.

Wow, what a year! At this time last year, I was 45 pounds overweight and thinking about making a comeback. HAHAHAHA! Anyway, we put our nose to the grindstone and boy did we make a comeback. At one hundred and eighty pounds, I finished 11th out of 56 guys at camp in the fitness test and scored a historic shootout goal in an exhibition game after being out of hockey for six years. What does that say about the talent level in the NHL? 4 points and a plus 4 rating in four exhibition games and I get cut. What a joke! Craig Conroy goes the first 37 games of the season with zero goals. I wonder how many I would have had. Even with all the stupid people that run the game of hockey, it’s still a great game. Go figure. Anyway, then the book comes out and starts flying off the shelves. The truth will set you free! 100,000 copies and counting. Thank you for all your support.

 

[Big Bobby]

Yes. I've also always thought that he'd make a great replacement for Don Cherry on a revived Coaches Corner.