Should Gardiner be traded prior to the deadline?

[HoweHullOrr]

My take is simple.

I have never liked Gardiner, but I respect what he can bring offensively. To me it is a no brainer that while we have the Cap this year we keep him and try and make an add for a RHD. Let's say Petro.(love this guy)

You get Petro and you go for the cup and then you move Jake for whatever and you keep Petro. Next year you have

Morgan-Petro
Dermott-Zaitsev
and who knows?

If we can 1 year Hainsey cheap you bring him back for the 2nd pair and let camp and nature sort out the rest.

Petro's wife just had triplets. His wife's Mom and her family are from St. Louis. He's going to be sleeping on the couch for a few years if he agrees to be traded away from St. Louis. Would be a nice get, but this idea seems like wishful thinking. Hope I'm wrong.

 

[BlueBaron]

Petro's wife just had triplets. His wife's Mom and her family are from St. Louis. He's going to be sleeping on the couch for a few years if he agrees to be traded away from St. Louis. Would be a nice get, but this idea seems like wishful thinking. Hope I'm wrong.

Might be, we don't really know. He is a local boy and winning is usually important to these guys. So there is hope.

 

[LeafFever]

Yeah, I think the trade ship has sailed.
I Don’t think it wasn’t considered though.
I’m pretty certain he would have been moved if DeHaan chose TO during FA.
Pretty sure that woulda been the plan.
Hoping that TD and Ozi see tougher matchups in the second half, to see what they can do.

Thank god he did not. Bad contract. I doubt Dubas offered anything close to 4 years/18 million.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

Might be, we don't really know. He is a local boy and winning is usually important to these guys. So there is hope.

Yep. We don't really know.

I do know we have been talking about getting a defender for about the last 2 1/2 years. Seeing as nothing has happened yet, I have concluded that this must be harder than some people seem to think. Not sure what else one could think?

 

[BlueBaron]

Yep. We don't really know.

I do know we have been talking about getting a defender for about the last 2 1/2 years. Seeing as nothing has happened yet, I have concluded that this must be harder than some people seem to think. Not sure what else one could think?

It is hard, just like #1 C's. We do know this one is available but we won't be the only ones bidding. Would also not surprise me if one of our rivals push hard to keep him from us.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

It is hard, just like #1 C's. We do know this one is available but we won't be the only ones bidding. Would also not surprise me if one of our rivals push hard to keep him from us.

As I said before, I'm not sure about that for the reasons I stated (#201). I'd bet on his wife having something to say about this and winning out in the end. Pragmatic realism I guess you'd call it.

 

[BlueBaron]

As I said before, I'm not sure about that for the reasons I stated (#201). I'd bet on his wife having something to say about this and winning out in the end. Pragmatic realism I guess you'd call it.

From what I can tell he has no trade protection. That means we would have this season and next to brainwash him and if we win a Cup or get far in the playoffs becomes all the easier.

I'm used to this stuff not happening. I just think it's plausible.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

From what I can tell he has no trade protection. That means we would have this season and next to brainwash him and if we win a Cup or get far in the playoffs becomes all the easier.

I'm used to this stuff not happening. I just think it's plausible.

Hope your right. I've had a parallel situation in my life before. Let's just say that my wife's plan was the one that was implemented. LOL.

 

[BlueBaron]

Hope your right. I've had a parallel situation in my life before. Let's just say that my wife's plan was the one that was implemented. LOL.

Ha ha, happy Wife, happy life.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

Ha ha, happy Wife, happy life.

That's what they say, and we better get used to it. LOL.

 

[pcruz]

Hope your right. I've had a parallel situation in my life before. Let's just say that my wife's plan was the one that was implemented. LOL.

Just one small difference though.
Are you earning $10M a year? That kind of seems like an easy way back into sleeping in your own bed. Also the fact that you’re already not home to help out at all for 1/3 of the calendar year. More if you’re lucky and make the playoffs.

With that kind of money, you could relocate the wife’s entire family to help out.

I haven’t kept up with this discussion at all, but I’ll say this. As much as I can’t stand to watch Gardiner make plays like the pass in the slot for an easy goal, or the running around like a headless chicken in his own zone, you don’t trade away an impact player when you’re one of the best teams in the league.

The guy has some flaws to his game. Most notably, he either overthinks everything or the neutrons just stop firing, I’m unsure which is more accurate.
However, there are few players in the league with the skating and passing ability he has.

We can’t afford to sign him this off season. I’m glad that’s the case, but he’s going to be hard to replace.

The cap crunch the team faces next year means we likely have to rely on an internal replacement.
Rosen, Borgman and Lil-grin (I forgot how to spell his name) won’t be putting up 50 points any time soon.
I’m fine with that though. I want my forwards to be the primary scorers, not defensemen.

 

[luvdahattymatty]

That's what they say, and we better get used to it. LOL.

Gramps here. Hope everyone had a great XMAS. Love that saying. It has been true for me. Lived and played in States. could not move back until kids were out of cloth. Go Leafs Go!

 

[Nithoniniel]

To further the point that stats don't agree that Gardiner is bad defensively. Over the last five years, Gardiner ranks 16th among d-men in Rel GA/60. Almost everybody above him are bottom pairing d-men playing very soft minutes. The sole exceptions is Pesce. If you look at RelT GA/60, which shows the effect he has on his teammates, he ranks 17th. Boychuk, Klingberg, and Giordano are the only ones with a majority of the top playing in the top four above him.

Some people are pretty much saying that Gardiner is a liability defensively and can't be trusted, even though everybody has better defensive results with Gardiner on the ice, and he consistently gets great results despite a wide variety of usage and linemates. Imagine someone claiming that a forward that consistently scores 60 points, who always produces no matter who he plays with, and with whom everyone does better is actually a black hole offensively. All because he sometimes fans on tap-ins.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

Just one small difference though.
Are you earning $10M a year? That kind of seems like an easy way back into sleeping in your own bed. Also the fact that you’re already not home to help out at all for 1/3 of the calendar year. More if you’re lucky and make the playoffs.

With that kind of money, you could relocate the wife’s entire family to help out.

How do we know what the difference in money will be playing for the Leafs versus St. Louis? Can we simply just assume that he'll get paid significantly more playing as a Leaf?

And, we are going to pay him $10m per year? That would take additional adjustments and player movement to make that work with next year's cap.

Relocating his wife's family is adding another layer of improbable.

 

[pcruz]

How do we know what the difference in money will be playing for the Leafs versus St. Louis? Can we simply just assume that he'll get paid significantly more playing as a Leaf?

And, we are going to pay him $10m per year? That would take additional adjustments and player movement to make that work with next year's cap.

Relocating his wife's family is adding another layer of improbable.

We don’t.
But we do know his current contract.
We also know that all players are paid in USD.
We also know the current exchange rate.
We also know that if they live in Toronto, they earn in USD and spend in CAD

 

[HoweHullOrr]

We don’t.
But we do know his current contract.
We also know that all players are paid in USD.
We also know the current exchange rate.
We also know that if they live in Toronto, they earn in USD and spend in CAD

We also know that his wife just had triplets and her Mom and family are from St. Louis. We also know taxes are higher in Ontario (Canada). Hope he'd consider moving his family (young triplets), but we are just guessing on what might happen, and perhaps, adding a dash of wishful thinking to go along with that guessing.

 

[Brownbeard]

I flip flop on this. The problem with Gardiner is that you both know and don't know what you're going to get, if that makes sense. When he uses his head and plays hard, he's a good asset to have because he moves the puck well and has good speed for breakouts. The problem is that he's not that intelligent, and that brings with it terrible, boneheaded giveaways and lazy defensive plays.

I like his skill, but don't trust him in the playoffs. He's proven he cannot be trusted. I thought he'd be better and smarter this year, but just the other night he reverted back to classic, braindead Jake.

Answer: Yes, if we can get good assets.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

To further the point that stats don't agree that Gardiner is bad defensively. Over the last five years, Gardiner ranks 16th among d-men in Rel GA/60. Almost everybody above him are bottom pairing d-men playing very soft minutes. The sole exceptions is Pesce. If you look at RelT GA/60, which shows the effect he has on his teammates, he ranks 17th. Boychuk, Klingberg, and Giordano are the only ones with a majority of the top playing in the top four above him.

Some people are pretty much saying that Gardiner is a liability defensively and can't be trusted, even though everybody has better defensive results with Gardiner on the ice, and he consistently gets great results despite a wide variety of usage and linemates. Imagine someone claiming that a forward that consistently scores 60 points, who always produces no matter who he plays with, and with whom everyone does better is actually a black hole offensively. All because he sometimes fans on tap-ins.

Why can a player go completely stupid in certain games and have it be expected to be ignored for some reason. I really fear Gardiners meltdowns in important games. That meltdown in game 7 last year is very fresh in my thinking. He was up to the same stuff this year as recently as the Detroit game firing a clearing attempt or pass or whatever the f^<@ throught slot a couple times. I don't ignore that this monster in his game will show up. That stuff is completely unacceptable to me. I don't get it anymore! I wouldn't regret trading him for a solid dman in the right age range that is physical, has a good first pass and looks after the crease in a disciplined way and does not score as much.

I would favour a player consistently looking after the d-zone firstly.

I'm not disagreeing with one word in your post!!! I just don't trust him enough anymore!

 

[LeafingTheWay]

I flip flop on this. The problem with Gardiner is that you both know and don't know what you're going to get, if that makes sense. When he uses his head and plays hard, he's a good asset to have because he moves the puck well and has good speed for breakouts. The problem is that he's not that intelligent, and that brings with it terrible, boneheaded giveaways and lazy defensive plays.

I like his skill, but don't trust him in the playoffs. He's proven he cannot be trusted. I thought he'd be better and smarter this year, but just the other night he reverted back to classic, braindead Jake.

Answer: Yes, if we can get good assets.

I know I may be nitpicking but:

"... don't trust him in the playoffs. He's proven the cannot be trusted. I thought he'd be better and smarter this year, but just the other night he reverted back to classic, braindead Jake."

1) Out of the 3 playoffs series he's been in, he's been amazing in 2 of them (arguably the best D in in the WSH series and the 12-13 Boston series). Heck even the 3rd series (against Boston last year), he was great until the 7th game where he shat the bed. Now he's proven he cannot be trusted? Should I say the same for Matthews who disappeared in the playoffs last year?
2) 34 games in and he has 2 bad mistakes in a single game, all of a sudden he's reverted back to classic, braindead Jake?

 

[Ziggdiezan]

I know I may be nitpicking but:

"... don't trust him in the playoffs. He's proven the cannot be trusted. I thought he'd be better and smarter this year, but just the other night he reverted back to classic, braindead Jake."

1) Out of the 3 playoffs series he's been in, he's been amazing in 2 of them (arguably the best D in in the WSH series and the 12-13 Boston series). Heck even the 3rd series (against Boston last year), he was great until the 7th game where he shat the bed. Now he's proven he cannot be trusted? Should I say the same for Matthews who disappeared in the playoffs last year?
2) 34 games in and he has 2 bad mistakes in a single game, all of a sudden he's reverted back to classic, braindead Jake?

What I don't get is the one play people seem to point at when they attack Gardiner about game 7 is the Debrusk goal which should have been a routine save from a really bad angle.
Jake did pretty well to force him wide.

Andy was at fault as much as Gardiner in that game and I completely agree that Gardiner has been a consistently good playoff performer.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Why can a player go completely stupid in certain games and have it be expected to be ignored for some reason. I really fear Gardiners meltdowns in important games. That meltdown in game 7 last year is very fresh in my thinking. He was up to the same stuff this year as recently as the Detroit game firing a clearing attempt or pass or whatever the f^<@ throught slot a couple times. I don't ignore that this monster in his game will show up. That stuff is completely unacceptable to me. I don't get it anymore! I wouldn't regret trading him for a solid dman in the right age range that is physical, has a good first pass and looks after the crease in a disciplined way and does not score as much.

It isn't really ignored, it's included in the numbers. It just show how much those individual mistakes disappear in his overall impact.

A thought exercise. Let's say we trade Gardiner for a less talented but more reliable d-man. If that d-man plays worse enough that over three games, he lets in another goal against. But over three games, he also makes one less crucial, costly mistake than Gardiner. Have we really gained anything?

 

[Wafflewhipper]

It isn't really ignored, it's included in the numbers. It just show how much those individual mistakes disappear in his overall impact.

A thought exercise. Let's say we trade Gardiner for a less talented but more reliable d-man. If that d-man plays worse enough that over three games, he lets in another goal against. But over three games, he also makes one less crucial, costly mistake than Gardiner. Have we really gained anything?

Thats not a trade i would want if thats the return, absolutely no i would not like the return. I can't assume you are completely on to something and I'm completely off base because there is not a defensive player available that could bring a equal value in return.

We need some defense that can knock players out of the crease and put some players hard to the wall with a hard hit consistently.

I believe that is out there and i believe you can not have a one dimensional defense like ours. I believe Dermott should be picking it up physically and that he has that capability too.

I am not talking a Polak quality player in return. I would give up some offense(gardiner) for a heavy dman with quality first pass and poise and solid defense.

Calgary and Chicago have a need for some offense on the back end but only Calgary would likely want Gardiner for a defensive dman in return. Chicago would want forwards in return for the quality defensive dman i would want from them.

Its out there to be had, Rasmus Andersson from the flames and Carl Dahlstrom from Chicago for example of the type of player I'm talking about. I don't want plugs at the end of their career returns.

Gardiner can be improved up on the defensive side of the puck i believe anyways

 

[Slyfox]

“I just looked today, happened to be scanning through it, and noticed [Gardiner's] like 19th in defensive scoring and he’s plus-17,” said Mike Babcock after the Leafs’ optional morning skate on Friday. “And he’s been on a power play that’s been kind of non-existent with the second group. So, Jake is a good player, he’s one of those guys who to me is an elite brain, makes tons of good plays all the time, is real smart, is way better than people think defensively and he’s an important player for us.”

Glad Babcock can recognize that Gardiner is really good defensively and is really smart. Don't know why others can't see this.

 

[kevsh]

There is no way Gardiner is going anywhere this season, even if the trade brings back a solid RHD with term.

First off, the Leafs are currently second overall. Teams in that lofty of a position (legit Cup threat, despite being in the Division of Doom) don't trade important roster players regardless of the return as it's far too risky. What if the player they bring back doesn't excel in the Leafs system (Just ask San Jose re: Karlsson)? What if they discover - too late - that they really miss Gardiner's puck moving ability and speed?

Simply put, there's no realistic trade I can see the Leafs making that would be worth moving Gardiner now. Perhaps before this season started so the RHD gets accustomed, etc., but moving him before the trade deadline is a huge gamble that could derail a very important season for this team.

 

[hockeywiz542]

In the long term, moving Gardiner would seem to be a positive. Presuming the Leafs get a first-round pick, that player will almost certainly be a contributor in a year or two. And for the first three seasons he’d be a cheap addition on an entry-level deal, something the Leafs will be starving for. Combined with their own first-round pick, the Leafs would be well-positioned to provide support players for Matthews and Marner.

In the short-term, the here and now, moving Gardiner wouldn’t make much of a difference. Travis Dermott seems ready for more, and he’s going to get a bigger role next season anyway, so why not start now? Either Dermott or Nikita Zaitsev can take over the second power-play unit. If Martin Marincin and/or Justin Holl start getting minutes, or if Calle Rosen gets that long-awaited call up, the Leafs will probably not have surrendered much in the present to secure a more solid future.

And whatever might be lost defensively by trading Gardiner could be tempered by a Kapanen deal, because moving Gardiner would not preclude the Leafs from shoring up the right side of their defence, their biggest deficiency.

To get a good right-side player will cost them a young stud. Dubas has already promised William Nylander he won’t be traded, so it’s doubtful he’d go back on his word. At least not this quickly.

Kapanen is probably the most tradable, and his appearance on the team’s first power-play unit only adds to his resume. Kapanen appears destined for a third-line role, behind Marner and Nylander, making somewhere around $2.5 million a season.

Another team might see Kapanen as more valuable than that, perhaps even at the $4-million level. The compensation the Leafs would get on a $4-million offer sheet to Kapanen — also a restricted free agent July 1 — would only be a second-round pick, something Dubas would have to be aware of. If the GM is open to trading Kapanen before July 1, why not trade him now if Kapanen could net the Leafs a difference-maker on the blue line, one that can offer more on the top pairing with Morgan Rielly than Ron Hainsey does?

The Carolina Hurricanes could be a potential trade partner, as they boast a slew of right-handed defencemen. Brett Pesce’s name keeps coming up; his cap hit is $4.025 million a season until 2024 and he’s just 24.

Would the Edmonton Oilers bite? Kapanen’s speed and scoring ability would shine on Connor McDavid’s wing. And his ability to kill penalties and be a force in his own zone would be a match for coach Ken Hitchcock’s system. Could Kapanen for Adam Larsson ($4.167 million until 2021) be a potential deal? Larsson is 26.