Sportsnet: Shanaplan Phase 2

[PromisedLand]

Well now that youve brought Hitler into the comparison and conversation it is clear as day you are not worth continuing to talk to.

You do realize the concensus of the NHL... as in player's, coaches, scouts, GM's not to mention the hockey insiders and media alike all agree Mitch deserves to be paid more because Mitch is and always probably will be the superior player and much more valuable as such.

Hence why everyone put a 8 million per price tag on Willie, The 10 million tag on Mitch while Auston gets 11-12.

You make more money then players you are better then by and large. Very few exceptions to that rule. There are some.. but they are the outliers not the norm.

But I guess all the professionals are not as aware of a players true value as you are. They only live breathe and sleep the game. You sit at your laptop and have no contact or even a minor interaction but you know better while comparing their thoughts to ****ing Hitler.

I am just pointing out that the consensus doesn't always have to be true or for that matter good.

Second not everybody is valuing marner higher than nylander. Marner's production on even strength is less than Nylander. You can keep citing whoever you want that doesn't make marner better than nylander. at present there are no stats that show that marner is better than nylander in every category such that he become a "tier above" nylander.

 

[The Man with a Plan]

it was Shanny who brought up his playing time during the non cap era and and how is it idiotic to rip him for being Me-Shan and holding out and signing an offer sheet when he's now wanting MNM to take discounts when they haven't made any real money yet?

Because playing in the pre cap era you could ask for the moon and not screw the team over.

Now there is a limit and a bigger need to truly see the big picture.

Do you only want money? Then get traded to a small market team that has the cap space to overpay you. Enjoy not making the playoffs and never sniffing the cup. Or do you want to make a lot of money still but maybe not as much as you could... because you know you have a great chance of hoisting the cup aloft over your head to a city and a nation that now gives you the keys to the city and a lifetime of opportunities after your playing days are over.

 

[LeafsNation75]

I am just pointing out that the consensus doesn't always have to be true or for that matter good.

Second not everybody is valuing marner higher than nylander. Marner's production on even strength is less than Nylander. You can keep citing whoever you want that doesn't make marner better than nylander. at present there are no stats that show that marner is better than nylander in every category such that he become a "tier above" nylander.

I think in terms of importance between Matthews, Marner, and Nylander this is how they would be ranked.

1) Matthews
2) Marner
3) Nylander

 

[Ciao]

I'm fine with what Shanahan said. Ultimately the players have to decide if they want max dollars or max teammates. They can't have both, and they need the teammates to win Cups.

 

[PromisedLand]

I think in terms of importance between Matthews, Marner, and Nylander this is how they would be ranked.

1) Matthews
2) Marner
3) Nylander

Personally I don't see that much difference between Marner/Nylander at least not yet for me it is

Matthews
Marner/Nylander

I need more sample size before I can say yes definitely either marner or nylander. at present; to me they are both equal.

Marner competes but is easily pushed of the puck; is not good on the boards due to size, makes amazing plays and his shot is not as good. Skates pretty good.

Nylander sometimes competes, not easily pushed of the puck; decent on the boards compared to marner and his zone entries is freakin' legendary. he also led the league in neutral zone takeaways; shot is a rocket. Skates pretty good.

they both bring their own strength and they are both not superior than the other at least not yet IMO

 

[hotpaws]

Because playing in the cap era you could ask for the moon and not screw the team over.

Now there is a limit and a bigger need to truly see the big picture.

Do you only want money? Then get traded to a small market team that has the cap space to overpay you. Enjoy not making the playoffs and never sniffing the cup. Or do you want to make a lot of money still but maybe not as much as you could... because you know you have a great chance of hoisting the cup aloft over your head to a city and a nation that now gives you the keys to the city and a lifetime of opportunities after your playing days are over.

i'll say it again , Shanny brought up his playing days in the non cap era and used it as an example except he left out being a greedy selfish pos and holding out then signing an offer sheet

but hey lets make excuses because he's the Leafs Prez and i want to use his bs example to take another dump on Nylander

also it's not the players responsibility to manage the cap and it's not the players responsibility to bail mgmt out when they overspend and considering none of MNM have signed yet maybe just maybe they aren't interested in giving there money to JT after they were the ones who turned this team around

 

[Ciao]

. . . This was a very crafty and pointed move. He put it out there in the hockey world, that if Willy wants to be part of a winning group, everyone needs to sacrifice. If Willy does not buy in, he solidified the groundwork to move him for pieces in the short term. I thought it was brilliant.

I agree that Shanahan's statement is very strategic.

Michael Nylander can't tell his son what it's like to win a Cup. He was traded several times and never went deep into the playoffs. He only played as many as 10 playoff games once -- with the 2006-07 Rangers.

So, while Dad can fill Willy's head with dollar signs and contracts, the President can give him a completely different perspective of which the old man knows nothing.

Shanahan is differentiating the Leafs sales pitch from the goods Nylander's father is selling. He's showing him a different path.

Even if it fails it's still worth a try.

 

[Tavares to Marner]

Marner is another level than Nylander

 

[kb]

Good job with the numbers

You missed Phil Kessel though
Also I think Kapanen and Johnsson would probably get more than 1.5, they are keepers. So just with that you could be off by 4 or 5 million.

Nylander gets 6.25ish and Matthew's will probably get 11

In the end I doubt we will keep Gard.

Missing Horton's LTIR money too.....which could keep Gardiner if a bit of $$$ is peeled off the bottom of the roster. Not sure Kapanen or Johnsson will rate increases if they can't bury the biscuit.

 

[LeafsNation75]

I agree that Shanahan's statement is very strategic.

Michael Nylander can't tell his son what it's like to win a Cup. He was traded several times and never went deep into the playoffs. He only played as many as 10 playoff games once -- with the 2006-07 Rangers.

So, while Dad can fill Willy's head with dollar signs and contracts, the President can give him a completely different perspective of which the old man knows nothing.

Shanahan is differentiating the Leafs sales pitch from the goods Nylander's father is selling. He's showing him a different path.

Even if it fails it's still worth a try.

If anything I think Shanahan should have only mentioned how Tavares took a little less compared to what the Sharks and Islanders were offering, however he should have not mentioned the Red Wings teams he won those 3 Stanley Cups with since there was no salary cap at the time.

 

[Ciao]

i'll say it again , Shanny brought up his playing days in the non cap era and used it as an example except he left out being a greedy selfish pos and holding out then signing an offer sheet

but hey lets make excuses because he's the Leafs Prez and i want to use his bs example to take another dump on Nylander

also it's not the players responsibility to manage the cap and it's not the players responsibility to bail mgmt out when they overspend and considering none of MNM have signed yet maybe just maybe they aren't interested in giving there money to JT after they were the ones who turned this team around

You know, it's not like the Leafs are trying to save money on the backs of the players. These guys aren't Harold Ballard, or the guys that ran the Flames when Michael Nylander was young.

To the contrary, they want to spend every penny they can on player contracts and will even engineer dead weight like the Horton trade and the Robidas Island voyages to free up cap space for even more spending.

For the Leafs, money isn't the object -- winning is the object.

They're just looking for like-minded persons.

 

[Ciao]

If anything I think Shanahan should have only mentioned how Tavares took a little less compared to what the Sharks and Islanders were offering, however he should have not mentioned the Red Wings teams he won those 3 Stanley Cups with since there was no salary cap at the time.

He needed a way to say winning counts.

That's what you remember.

 

[hotpaws]

You know, it's not like the Leafs are trying to save money on the backs of the players. These guys aren't Harold Ballard, or the guys that ran the Flames when Michael Nylander was young.

To the contrary, they want to spend every penny they can on player contracts and will even engineer dead weight like the Horton trade and the Robidas Island voyages to free up cap space for even more spending.

For the Leafs, money isn't the object -- winning is the object.

They're just looking for like-minded persons.

no ones calling the Leaf cheap

i'm just saying , telling someone who knows he'll likely be traded to take a discount because they gave his money to the new guy is a joke

as a fan i'd love if MNM took discounts just like i would have loved if JT took a discount and signed for 8.5m like Stamkos did but i'm not going crap on them for wanting to get paid

 

[Buds17]

I guess it's fair game to bring up Shanahan's holdout and offer sheet signing, but players did take less to try and win with Detroit...in a non-cap league...with one of the league's highest spending teams. If top players were going to try to get every penny they could, would this not have been an ideal situation for that to occur? He acknowledges the current situation isn't going to be for everyone.

I understand why players are asked about it as it's a prevalent topic. I can also understand why the question won't be answered now, if there's even an answer to give. I'm sure the players would rather leave that to their agents and let their play on the ice speak for itself. If/when contracts are signed, that's when the answer will be obvious.

 

[LeafsNation75]

He needed a way to say winning counts.

That's what you remember.

I agree and I completely understood his point. However the media was also focused on how there was no salary cap at that time.

 

[hotpaws]

I guess it's fair game to bring up Shanahan's holdout and offer sheet signing, but players did take less to try and win with Detroit...in a non-cap league...with one of the league's highest spending teams. If top players were going to try to get every penny they could, would this not have been an ideal situation for that to occur? He acknowledges the current situation isn't going to be for everyone.

I understand why players are asked about it as it's a prevalent topic. I can also understand why the question won't be answered now, if there's even an answer to give. I'm sure the players would rather leave that to their agents and let their play on the ice speak for itself. If/when contracts are signed, that's when the answer will be obvious.

guys in there mid 30's like Hull and Robitaile taking discounts after making there money is a hell of a lot different than asking kids who are trying to sign there first big deal

it's obvious taking a pay cut isn't for Nylander and by the looks of it Marner and Mathews since they also haven't signed so Shanny should stop trying to force them too and just trade them for players who'll play for sub market deals

 

[Iapyi]

Without knowing what either side is asking/wanting it's a bit difficult to take sides, that said, in the huge majority of cases it is the player over valuing themselves. The team generally wins out in the end.

I'm not one of those people who pretends to know that the player is being asked to take a "paycut" or that the team is trying to cheap out because quite frankly I don't know the specifics.

 

[Buds17]

guys in there mid 30's like Hull and Robitaile taking discounts after making there money is a hell of a lot different than asking kids who are trying to sign there first big deal

it's obvious taking a pay cut isn't for Nylander and by the looks of it Marner and Mathews since they also haven't signed so Shanny should stop trying to force them too and just trade them for players who'll play for sub market deals

You're right that the ages of the players involved are drastically different, but free agency has also changed from then to now. Salaries are increasing and some players are getting paid (much) earlier.

Regarding the current situation, both player and team can stay firm with their offers until/unless it becomes necessary to complete a deal. It doesn't matter all that much what either side expects, it only matters what they agree to settle on. Still early IMO to determine who is and isn't willing to play ball.

 

[The Man with a Plan]

no ones calling the Leaf cheap

i'm just saying , telling someone who knows he'll likely be traded to take a discount because they gave his money to the new guy is a joke

That "New guy" as you put it is a very well respected veteran player with world championships, Olympic gold, a former Captain and is an elite top 10-15 Center in the game.

But yeah the guys who have only been in the show a couple of years should begrudge him do getting the payday they could have... AFTER they have proven they are worth it. If he takes the deal offered and that he has earned....he doesn't have to worry about being traded. Simple as that.

We don't need to trade him, but if he is going to play for the name on the back not the crest on the front... **** him then. Enjoy Arizona and never sniffing the cup. Just like his father.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

Why would Nylander cave? It’s a bad move from Shanahan’s part. He should stay out of it completely. I doubt Shanahan took a single discount playing for the Red Wings when there was no cap. I like him but he’s got to stay quiet.

Nylander’s dad made millions in the NHL, he’s not hurting for cash. The fact that Nylander has given his agent the complete authority means that he’s not planning to cave any time soon.

His agent seems like the type to drag this all the way to Dec 1st to see who caves at the last minute. Do we want Nylander to play this season or stay on the sidelines?

I’d go after Panarin as a rental if the Leafs are dead set on playing hardball. He’s not going to cost a lot (Karlsson returned garbage) and easily replaces Nylander’s offence and more for the year.

Bridge deal I think. Term will take Nylander to UFA. They (Willie, his Dad & agent) don't seem like the type that would be willing to give up leverage.

Not sure of the optics of $11m that they gave to Tavares in the minds of our stud ELCs. Not sure how they see that.

 

[hotpaws]

That "New guy" as you put it is a very well respected veteran player with world championships, Olympic gold, a former Captain and is an elite top 10-15 Center in the game.

But yeah the guys who have only been in the show a couple of years should begrudge him do getting the payday they could have... AFTER they have proven they are worth it. If he takes the deal offered and that he has earned....he doesn't have to worry about being traded. Simple as that.

We don't need to trade him, but if he is going to play for the name on the back not the crest on the front... **** him then. Enjoy Arizona and never sniffing the cup. Just like his father.

yea f*** him and f*** every player that won't play for a discount which looks like it also includes Mathews and Marner since they haven't sign ed as well and f*** JT for not signing for Stamkos money

and especially f*** that selfish piece of shyte President we have who set the precedent when he was a greedy me first player and f*** our coach who desperately needed to be paid more than double his peers to stroke his massive ego and f*** our hipster doufus GM who's also probably over paid

wha wha wha why can't everyone play for free so we can win and i can run to the main board and gloat and shit on people

how about Monday morning you practice what you preach and tell your boss to you're giving back part of your salary and he should give it to the person in the next office over

 

[Boutette]

yea **** him and **** every player that won't play for a discount which looks like it also includes Mathews and Marner since they haven't sign ed as well and **** JT for not signing for Stamkos money

and especially **** that selfish piece of shyte President we have who set the precedent when he was a greedy me first player and **** our coach who desperately needed to be paid more than double his peers to stroke his massive ego and **** our hipster doufus GM who's also probably over paid

wha wha wha why can't everyone play for free so we can win and i can run to the main board and gloat and **** on people

how about Monday morning you practice what you preach and tell your boss to you're giving back part of your salary and he should give it to the person in the next office over

Fans of the Leafs want them to win. They know that is accomplished by maxing the ratio of cost vs value because there is a cap on how much you can pay your players. Every team has to deal with this and every team that is committed to winning the cup has to take this seriously, or they don't win the cup. Players who don't sign on to that are obstacles. You want Nylander to earn the most he can, that's fine. You're entitled to be a fan of his. But when his personal desires become an obstacle to the team, then that obstacle needs to be addressed. Nylander will make tens of millions over his career. He'll play a lot of hockey and score a lot of points. And if they pay whatever his agent asks, they'll be expected to pay whatever Marner's agent asks and whatever Matthews agent asks. In a cap world, that's not a good idea for the team, that will reduce the chances of the leafs winning and that's what matters to Leafs fans. Not how many tens of millions of dollars each of these players make. Even if you don't thinks so, playing hockey for, say, $6 million dollar a year for a few years before going UFA isn't the equivalent of playing for free.

 

[Eb]

I'm fine with what Shanahan said. Ultimately the players have to decide if they want max dollars or max teammates. They can't have both, and they need the teammates to win Cups.

I think we all agree with this. It's just hypocritical to hear this coming from his mouth.

 

[Boutette]

I think we all agree with this. It's just hypocritical to hear this coming from his mouth.

Why is it hypocritical? St. Louis looked like they were much more likely to win a cup the year he signed that offer sheet. Is Toronto the mediocre team like NJ was at the time?

 

[The Man with a Plan]

yea **** him and **** every player that won't play for a discount which looks like it also includes Mathews and Marner since they haven't sign ed as well and **** JT for not signing for Stamkos money

and especially **** that selfish piece of shyte President we have who set the precedent when he was a greedy me first player and **** our coach who desperately needed to be paid more than double his peers to stroke his massive ego and **** our hipster doufus GM who's also probably over paid

wha wha wha why can't everyone play for free so we can win and i can run to the main board and gloat and **** on people

how about Monday morning you practice what you preach and tell your boss to you're giving back part of your salary and he should give it to the person in the next office over

Actually.. I have taken less salary myself so that I could ensure a couple of employees who were more key then others could be compensated as such. Things worked better with them there and that was simply what was best. A small price to pay for everyone being happy and more importantly effective.

But as a side note. Your reply was about as rediculious as can be. And sadly is too typical of far too many posters here.

And in case you have not wrapped your head around it. None is asking him to take a hometown discount. Stop honing in on that one triggering word for you and so many others... "hometown"
The title should more appropriatly be "Do you want to make a lot of money and win or make more money and never achieve your dreams"

The team merely want him to take what he deserves. 6.5 is not a discount...it is what he is worth now.

Pasta a 30+ goal scorer who is better then Willie in a lot of facets got 6.66
22 goals doesn't get you that kind of money. You can't just demand more then you are worth and say I promise I can produce now overpay me.

The day that a team starts paying 7+ million a season for players who as good as he could be have not broken the 22 goal mark is the day they start to have to get rid of effective players who do make a difference.