Proposal: Seth Jones for M. Marner

[Atomos2]

Jones is getting pretty overrated in this discussion. As the thread escalated the hyperbole gets exaggerated.

Anyway, no, I would not make this trade if I were the Leafs. Jones is an interesting piece. But I would look to obtain him another way and if it didn’t work, it’s not a big deal, I’d look for another deal. Tbh I would rather find a couple top 4 d instead.

Expecting a #1 d to come in and be the saviour is a childish fantasy. Doesn’t work that way.

 

[Kegs]

Jones is getting pretty overrated in this discussion. As the thread escalated the hyperbole gets exaggerated.

Anyway, no, I would not make this trade if I were the Leafs. Jones is an interesting piece. But I would look to obtain him another way and if it didn’t work, it’s not a big deal, I’d look for another deal. Tbh I would rather find a couple top 4 d instead.

Expecting a #1 d to come in and be the saviour is a childish fantasy.

What? Seth Jones is so much better then every Defender the leafs have. Like sooooo much better. Marner is my fav leaf personally. So I’m not even saying it’s an easy decision. But Seth Jones is not over rated. He is big. Skates really well. Makes great outlet passes. He is dominant when he is in the ice. He is a super star Defense. He will probably win a Norris one day. The leafs have the worst d in the east pretty much. I don’t see how this deal wouldn’t be considered if you’re the leafs gm. What u think Seth Jones is available via some draft picks and prospects? Not a chance. This deal doesn’t happen with out marner or Mathews regardless.

 

[LetsGOJackets!!]

Agreed... but what the Jackets need in return for Savard, Toronto can't/won't (realistically*) provide anymore.

*: We need a #2C, and while Toronto has two excellent top-6 centers, neither of them are going anywhere in a Savard deal.

Sure, that might be true as well.. but if we are going to argue for pages on end, about values... let's at least argue about a player that is a better fit for needs.

Ok, you have Tavares and Matthews that both grew up dreaming of playing for the Leafs.. if one of them wears out their welcome or tires of dealing with the traffic send them south to Columbus. We can find a place for them

 

[AvroArrow]

How so? Because some don't believe he's worth a stud defenseman? Or because some are arguing against referring to him as a 100 point guy because he's never reached the mark?

Was writing a reply then realized who i was talking to, i would rather not waste my time trying to explain to some people because they aren't here to discuss hockey.

 

[thadd]

Toronto GM says hell yes.
Columbus GM says hell know, hangs up the phone and has their number blocked.

 

[Atomos2]

What? Seth Jones is so much better then every Defender the leafs have. Like sooooo much better. Marner is my fav leaf personally. So I’m not even saying it’s an easy decision. But Seth Jones is not over rated. He is big. Skates really well. Makes great outlet passes. He is dominant when he is in the ice. He is a super star Defense. He will probably win a Norris one day. The leafs have the worst d in the east pretty much. I don’t see how this deal wouldn’t be considered if you’re the leafs gm. What u think Seth Jones is available via some draft picks and prospects? Not a chance. This deal doesn’t happen with out marner or Mathews regardless.

One d doesn’t make a difference. Leafs play a certain style. Just assuming Jones just gets thrown into the lineup and plays at an all star level is just nonsense and is overrating him. Leafs have a ton of holes. Inconsistent goaltending, no defensive depth, high risk fast pace game. All of these aren’t gonna be magically fixed with a superstar swap. It’s plain ignorant to think so. I’d easily prefer 2 solid top 4 d that can give us better depth than one superstar d man that we would need to overplay just to be a somewhat decent defensive team.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Expecting a #1 d to come in and be the saviour is a childish fantasy. Doesn’t work that way.

I mean, it kind of does. It allows the current defensemen to be pushed back one extra spot into a position they're probably better suited to playing. Suddenly instead of being the minute munching top D man who has the responsibility of leading the defense, Rielly can slip back into a #2 role and just play his own game. Muzzin drops from a #2 to a #4. Barrie can be used as a sheltered offensive #4, etc.

Take even an average defense corps and add a bonafide #1 D to it and suddenly it will improve leaps and bounds simply because guys playing above their heads will be slotted more comfortably into a role they're better suited for.

 

[Panthaz89]

Werenski is nowhere close to as good defensively as Jones. On top of that, Jones has outscored Werenski by 21 points in 1 more game played in the last 3 years, plus an impressive 14p in 16 playoff games vs Werenski's 9p.

The fact that Werenski is shooting 13% certainly points to his current production being unsustainable. Jones has proven to be the better offensive defenseman to date.

wow he scored him by 21 points in 1 more game when Werenski was only 20 and 21? How about we focus on the now as in this season. Nothing gets more overrated than certain defenseman who can play D but aren't that great on offense so people prep them up to be top 5 defender in the league in this thread which honestly has to be joke from my perspective.

 

[Panthaz89]

With all due respect, yeah, it is. It's odd that you think scoring production is a good measuring stick for the value of a defenseman.

Do you think that Philip Danault is a better centre than Nathan MacKinnon because Danault is so much better than MacKinnon defensively, because that's the same argument you are making here and wondering why people are calling it a stupid take.

Except Werenski isn't inept and is actually pretty good on D so your point makes no sense? I've watched the Jackets before I hardly notice much of a difference between either of the D-man that makes a clear gap between them.

 

[Jerkbait]

What? Seth Jones is so much better then every Defender the leafs have. Like sooooo much better. Marner is my fav leaf personally. So I’m not even saying it’s an easy decision. But Seth Jones is not over rated. He is big. Skates really well. Makes great outlet passes. He is dominant when he is in the ice. He is a super star Defense. He will probably win a Norris one day. The leafs have the worst d in the east pretty much. I don’t see how this deal wouldn’t be considered if you’re the leafs gm. What u think Seth Jones is available via some draft picks and prospects? Not a chance. This deal doesn’t happen with out marner or Mathews regardless.

That why it wont happen. Leafs GM will not part ways with a 22 year old 100 point winger. Read below they are right. Jones is a bit overrated especially on here. His ceiling is about 50 to 60 points . Solid 2 way but not marner good.

 

[Jerkbait]

Jones is getting pretty overrated in this discussion. As the thread escalated the hyperbole gets exaggerated.

Anyway, no, I would not make this trade if I were the Leafs. Jones is an interesting piece. But I would look to obtain him another way and if it didn’t work, it’s not a big deal, I’d look for another deal. Tbh I would rather find a couple top 4 d instead.

Expecting a #1 d to come in and be the saviour is a childish fantasy. Doesn’t work that way.

Agreed . Jones for marner is not where its at

 

[Jerkbait]

Toronto GM says hell yes.
Columbus GM says hell know, hangs up the phone and has their number blocked.

Dubas says no thanks and offers nylander

 

[Kegs]

Dubas says no thanks and offers nylander

Zero gm would trade an over paid winger for one of the better young d in the league.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Zero gm would trade an over paid winger for one of the better young d in the league.

Nylander is not overpaid at $6.9 million AAV. This season he's already matched his career high of 22 goals scored and is well on his way to scoring at least 30 goals.

 

[chuuute]

That why it wont happen. Leafs GM will not part ways with a 22 year old 100 point winger. Read below they are right. Jones is a bit overrated especially on here. His ceiling is about 50 to 60 points . Solid 2 way but not marner good.

When did Marner get 100 points or Jones 60? Calling either is inaccurate. Just call it like it is. Marner is a superstar winger on a $10.89M cap hit per year for 5 more years and Jones is a superstar D on a $5.4M cap hit for 2 more years. Hard to say what Jones' next contract will be, but ~$10M seems reasonable. Cap hits will be close enough that you need to compare scarcity of the resource, and #1D are harder to come by than top line wingers. Neither team would say yes to the deal due to "I love my guy", but seems like it'd be a bit of loss for Columbus in a 1 for 1 deal.

 

[Atomos2]

I mean, it kind of does. It allows the current defensemen to be pushed back one extra spot into a position they're probably better suited to playing. Suddenly instead of being the minute munching top D man who has the responsibility of leading the defense, Rielly can slip back into a #2 role and just play his own game. Muzzin drops from a #2 to a #4. Barrie can be used as a sheltered offensive #4, etc.

Take even an average defense corps and add a bonafide #1 D to it and suddenly it will improve leaps and bounds simply because guys playing above their heads will be slotted more comfortably into a role they're better suited for.

Assuming, Seth Jones seamlessly transitions into that role and there is chemistry among d partners (we already know Muzzin -Barrie are pretty meh. And I don't even want to talk about Rielly-Barrie). Assuming that there is consistent goaltending which is a hope in itself. Assuming the forwards high risk style still enables the defense to play solid and stingy on the defensive end. Toronto has a way of exposing dmen defensively (in the form of 2-on-1 opportunities) especially when it comes to rushing dman which Seth Jones is. I'd rather explore the option of adding two more top 4 d. Adds depth and flexibility. You don't have to burn out the top pair in minutes. And most importantly, you wouldn't have to eliminate one of your two franchise talents to obtain for a result that probably ends up the same at best or else much worse. Don't have far to look than Karlsson's effect on San Jose.

 

[Spazkat]

Dubas says no thanks and offers nylander

There's this thing , called "multi-quote" and the button to make it is right next to "reply" There's really no need to have 7 posts in a row where its all you replying to folks. I get that it bumps your post count up, but its annoying as crap to read through.

 

[Leaf Fans]

Hes scored over 90 once so he's a solid 110 point player? That's fuzzy math. Too bad defense doesn't factor in your method of evaluating players, if it did, you would realize the Leafs will never win anything but statistical championships.

The Leafs have won 13 Stanley Cups.

 

[ElPrimeTime]

How so? Because some don't believe he's worth a stud defenseman? Or because some are arguing against referring to him as a 100 point guy because he's never reached the mark?

You leave facts out of this!

 

[DingDongCharlie]

Marner scores 94 once and he's a solid 90-110 point guy.

Jones scores 57 once but he's not even a 60 point guy.

Why is this guy even allowed to post anymore?

I put him on ignore the second I read him saying he wouldn’t move Jake Guentzel for Seth Jones. I try to value other people’s opinions and understand some see more value in certain players but when you’re this far away from reality there’s literally no reason to even discuss anything with them.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Assuming, Seth Jones seamlessly transitions into that role and there is chemistry among d partners (we already know Muzzin -Barrie are pretty meh. And I don't even want to talk about Rielly-Barrie). Assuming that there is consistent goaltending which is a hope in itself. Assuming the forwards high risk style still enables the defense to play solid and stingy on the defensive end. Toronto has a way of exposing dmen defensively (in the form of 2-on-1 opportunities) especially when it comes to rushing dman which Seth Jones is. I'd rather explore the option of adding two more top 4 d. Adds depth and flexibility. You don't have to burn out the top pair in minutes. And most importantly, you wouldn't have to eliminate one of your two franchise talents to obtain for a result that probably ends up the same at best or else much worse. Don't have far to look than Karlsson's effect on San Jose.

San Jose was really good last year, in large part because they were able to roll Burns and Karlsson every other pairing. This year they've primarily been sunk by atrocious goaltending and not getting much scoring from their forwards. So I don't think they're proof it doesn't apply.

Besides, I'm not entirely sure how adding two decent top four D instead of adding Jones while losing Marner to acquire them makes the Leafs better. You'd have the same issues you just brought up while at the same time having, say, Manson and Dillon on the roster instead of Jones.

 

[GOilers88]

I put him on ignore the second I read him saying he wouldn’t move Jake Guentzel for Seth Jones. I try to value other people’s opinions and understand some see more value in certain players but when you’re this far away from reality there’s literally no reason to even discuss anything with them.

Yeah I finally did the same. First time I've used the function since I joined, lol.

 

[patriotfan]

well I think I created a buzz here and the mods want to shoot me, it seems to me that my post is maybe the hottest one going and leaf nation seems to rule even though a lot of you hate it so much.....

 

[Leaf Fans]

Toronto GM says hell yes.
Columbus GM says hell know, hangs up the phone and has their number blocked.

The GM in Columbus is not childish and blocks the number after a proposal he or she disagrees with immature behavior like blocking number only exists on the board. Kekäläinen may say no to the proposal, but he is a professional.

 

[glenngineer]

Covered earlier in the thread.

I figured as much. I didn't read much past your post.