Pre-Game Talk: Sens @ Coyotes Jan. 10 The Fight Between the Brothers Edition

[Karlsson2Turris*]

I've been so torn on this subject, that I'm being pushed to beyond caring. We're in no man's land, with the team showing no signs of the ability to go on an extended run to get out of the rut. i.e. we aren't underachieving. This is just the team's ability. I just want to see them play hard.

I can't help it but root for the team when we're on the ice, but it'd be nice to drop a few spots.



Loyal fan reasons to cheer against the tank:

-can't cheer for a bunch of losers
-can't cheer against my own team
-don't want the losing culture
-"look at Edmonton"
-Bonk's "cut my own leg off before I cheer for my team to lose" line or whatever it was

etc.

I'm getting tired of people saying "look at Edmonton." That's a once in a generation kind of flop. The Islanders, Kings, Penguins, Blackhawks, Lightning, and even the Panthers were bad for lots of years but now are contenders (or in the Panthers case, a playoff contender).

 

[Micklebot]

Still, it's always better to draft nth than n+1nth. But I will still root for a win, I'm just wired this way.

I'm with you. I won't get worked up about how bad our team is if we continue to lose, but that's a far cry from cheering for losses.

I want our players to show us they are better than they've been so far, so I'll be cheering for wins. If we end up 16th in the league and miss the playoffs because Zibanejad breaks out in the same way Johanson did, and Lazar shows signs of being a first line winger in the mold of Landeskog, I'll be ecstatic. If we finish 5th last because Cowen goes back to 2013/14 mode, we trade Anderson for a late 1st and Lehner poops the bed, and Zibanejad proves to be no more than a decent 3rd liner, I'll be pissed.

5th OA is nice, but our current roster reaching it's potential and the 14th pick is nicer imo.

 

[PoutineSp00nZ]

I'm getting tired of people saying "look at Edmonton." That's a once in a generation kind of flop. The Islanders, Kings, Penguins, Blackhawks, Lightning, and even the Panthers were bad for lots of years but now are contenders (or in the Panthers case, a playoff contender).

Some of those teams you mentioned have been bad for almost 20 years though. Not bad for 6 or 7 and then suddenly a contender. It can take luck to get back on track. A lot of drafting is still luck, only the players control what they do after they're drafted.

 

[Micklebot]

I'm getting tired of people saying "look at Edmonton." That's a once in a generation kind of flop. The Islanders, Kings, Penguins, Blackhawks, Lightning, and even the Panthers were bad for lots of years but now are contenders (or in the Panthers case, a playoff contender).

In the case of the Islanders, Lightning, and Panthers, I'd argue it wasn't draft picks that changed their fates, but changes in how the teams were managed. Even the Kings, and argument could be made that it wasn't the high picks that vaulted them up as much as some trades a great coach and a proper goalie. They've built around one elite player that they got from a high pick, well, we have one elite player that we got in the middle of the round.

Also, pointing to Florida is a pretty lousy example. Not that long ago Wiess, Bouwmeester, Olesz and Horton didn't turn them around. Not only that, but they've yet to show they can sustain success (if you call being just outside of the playoffs success).

 

[Karlsson2Turris*]

In the case of the Islanders, Lightning, and Panthers, I'd argue it wasn't draft picks that changed their fates, but changes in how the teams were managed. Even the Kings, and argument could be made that it wasn't the high picks that vaulted them up as much as some trades a great coach and a proper goalie. They've built around one elite player that they got from a high pick, well, we have one elite player that we got in the middle of the round.

Also, pointing to Florida is a pretty lousy example. Not that long ago Wiess, Bouwmeester, Olesz and Horton didn't turn them around. Not only that, but they've yet to show they can sustain success (if you call being just outside of the playoffs success).

At least they're not mired in mediocrity. They have young players with tremendous upside in Huberdeau, Barkov, Bjugstad, and Ekblad.

Also, do you have any other way to turn this team around?

 

[Micklebot]

At least they're not mired in mediocrity. They have young players with tremendous upside in Huberdeau, Barkov, Bjugstad, and Ekblad.

Also, do you have any other way to turn this team around?

Cheering for losses won't turn the team around. Cheering for our current players not to live up to expectations won't turn us around. One draft pick won't turn things around. As for Florida not being mired in mediocrity, that remains to be seen. Not too long ago people were looking at how bright our future was with Turris, Zibanejad, Cowen, Karlsson, Silfverberg ect. Florida better hope Luongo can keep it up, because Montoya isn't the answer whenever Lu starts to regress.

 

[DylanSensFan]

I'm getting tired of people saying "look at Edmonton." That's a once in a generation kind of flop. The Islanders, Kings, Penguins, Blackhawks, Lightning, and even the Panthers were bad for lots of years but now are contenders (or in the Panthers case, a playoff contender).

Yes and they did not shelter Tavares, Crosby, Toews or any of the stars from these teams from the pain of being on a losing club either, but this fan base seems to think we will ruin every prospect, that our prospects are busts because they haven't reached their full potential yet. There will be growing pains, but Bryan and Tim Murray's legacy will be one of winning and winning big in a matter of time. I truly believe that. So let our team wallow, let them maybe not make the playoffs, or maybe make it. Let there be talk in the media about expectations not met. But I think it is our jobs as fans to temper ourselves for a while, and enjoy the process, rather than the result. It is exciting to see all this young talent emerging on our team... Hoffman is especially exciting to see this season. Bobby Ryan, flashes from Zibanejad... even when they lose I think is neat to see these players have magic moments.

 

[Ice-Tray]

I wish there was a mute button on game day for tankers, their posts suck to read when we're gearing up for games. If you can't understand why, you never will.

It's not a "oh, if you want to win you want a craptastic mediocre team" versus, "I'm a better fan because I want us to lose and draft better"

It's more "stop being a coward hoping for loses, hedging your fragile future feelings, and cheer for the damn team to win when we play". You can enjoy the idea that when we lose, there is something that takes the sting out of it.

Cheering for losses is pathetic for a fan, no matter how you try and rationalize it. If you must do it, save it for after the game at least, have some rispek.

 

[ChocolateLeclaire]

Maybe his brother can convince him to sign with us in the offseason.

His agent reached out to Murray last time he was a free agent and Murray didn't make an offer if I recall correctly.

 

[ChocolateLeclaire]

Buf and Enstrom were 8th round picks, Pavelski a 7th, Subban, Keith, and Weber were 2nd rounders, Chara a 3rd Nyqvist a 4th.

Anaheim turned itself around with Getzlaf, and Perry, not Ryan. Philly while not doing so well now changed it's fortunes with Carter and Richards, and later Giroux, not JVR.

Tanking isn't what makes good teams good. Sure high picks are nice, but we aren't picking 1 or 2, or likely even 3. Odds change significantly once you get out of the top 3, and even more outside of the top 5. The marginally better pick won't help us; good choices will.

So who on our roster currently is equal to the caliber of players you've listed above? In terms of elite talent, we have Karlsson. Close to him is Ryan. In the second tier, you have Turris, MacArthur, Methot, etc. And it's too early to tell what Hoffman, Zib, Stone and Ceci will plateau at, but I think it's fair to say they will be at least second tier guys.

If we hade more Karlsson type players, then I'd look at this roster and say management has done a great job of building a quality roster around them. In my opinion, where Murray et al. have failed is finding the truly "next-level" guys to push the roster into being truly competitive. Hence, why you now have a team that is mediocre.

That's why I'm not against this team losing out and drafting very high. That one player and the subsequent high second round pick, can boost this roster far more than just another 14th overall pick can.

For once, I would like us to have a guy who can put up 90+ points and carry the load offensively. Scoring by committee isn't working with this team and I don't see one player on this roster or Bingo's that will ever reach that mark.

 

[HSF]

Yes and they did not shelter Tavares, Crosby, Toews or any of the stars from these teams from the pain of being on a losing club either, but this fan base seems to think we will ruin every prospect, that our prospects are busts because they haven't reached their full potential yet. There will be growing pains, but Bryan and Tim Murray's legacy will be one of winning and winning big in a matter of time. I truly believe that. So let our team wallow, let them maybe not make the playoffs, or maybe make it. Let there be talk in the media about expectations not met. But I think it is our jobs as fans to temper ourselves for a while, and enjoy the process, rather than the result. It is exciting to see all this young talent emerging on our team... Hoffman is especially exciting to see this season. Bobby Ryan, flashes from Zibanejad... even when they lose I think is neat to see these players have magic moments.

those kids came into the league with a pretty decent vets to help them out unlike the EDM kids

Crosby had Lemieux
Stamkos had Vinny and Stlouis
Tavares had Weight
Toews was surrounded by sharp, lang, kane, seabrooke, ladd, bolland, byfuglien, and keith

Those guys might have been at the end of their career but their experience brought a lot to the table for the young guys

even Karlsson had Gonchar (who he admitted was a great help)/Kuba and Alfie

Myers had Tallinder

Those are just off the top of my head but having vets who have had long sucessful careers surrounding your young guys is important which is why i am fine with Phillips and Legwand being here.

Ottawa already admitted that Legwand made a difference in the room on the first day

 

[HSF]

So who on our roster currently is equal to the caliber of players you've listed above? In terms of elite talent, we have Karlsson. Close to him is Ryan. In the second tier, you have Turris, MacArthur, Methot, etc. And it's too early to tell what Hoffman, Zib, Stone and Ceci will plateau at, but I think it's fair to say they will be at least second tier guys.

If we hade more Karlsson type players, then I'd look at this roster and say management has done a great job of building a quality roster around them. In my opinion, where Murray et al. have failed is finding the truly "next-level" guys to push the roster into being truly competitive. Hence, why you now have a team that is mediocre.

That's why I'm not against this team losing out and drafting very high. That one player and the subsequent high second round pick, can boost this roster far more than just another 14th overall pick can.

For once, I would like us to have a guy who can put up 90+ points and carry the load offensively. Scoring by committee isn't working with this team and I don't see one player on this roster or Bingo's that will ever reach that mark.

a team that has a roster of ryan macarthur turris andy/lehner karlsson ceci cowen zibby hoffman stone is not a team that will get a number 1 pick unless they win the lottery

So unless you are willing to trade a good chunk of those guys i don't see it happening

 

[Micklebot]

So who on our roster currently is equal to the caliber of players you've listed above? In terms of elite talent, we have Karlsson. Close to him is Ryan. In the second tier, you have Turris, MacArthur, Methot, etc. And it's too early to tell what Hoffman, Zib, Stone and Ceci will plateau at, but I think it's fair to say they will be at least second tier guys.

If we hade more Karlsson type players, then I'd look at this roster and say management has done a great job of building a quality roster around them. In my opinion, where Murray et al. have failed is finding the truly "next-level" guys to push the roster into being truly competitive. Hence, why you now have a team that is mediocre.

That's why I'm not against this team losing out and drafting very high. That one player and the subsequent high second round pick, can boost this roster far more than just another 14th overall pick can.

For once, I would like us to have a guy who can put up 90+ points and carry the load offensively. Scoring by committee isn't working with this team and I don't see one player on this roster or Bingo's that will ever reach that mark.

Where do you expect to get that guy? top 2 pick this year might get you that, but we are no where near bad enough to get that. There are currently how many 90 pt players in this league??? Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos and Maybe Giroux?

 

[BonkTastic]

For once, I would like us to have a guy who can put up 90+ points and carry the load offensively.

I would also like a top-10 player in the league. Who wouldn't?

While we're at it, I'd also like a Norris-caliber shutdown defenceman and a goalie who can consistently put up 10+ shutouts a year with a sub-2.20 GAA. And Scotty Bowman as coach. And an owner who is willing to spend to the cap every year. And unlimited buyouts.

 

[Super Cake]

I think it is a little bit unrealistic to expect a 90+ point player from this draft. There was only one 90+ point player last season and that player was Crosby. The 2012-2013 season had zero players reach the 90+ point mark. In fact, St. Louis had the most points that season with 60.

 

[Benjamin]

Last time SJ had a top 5 pick was in 98, Detroit had one in 90, Boston has had one (not including ones they traded for) since 97. Philly bottomed out for a second OA pick, and it hasn't found them long term success. Long term success doesn't have to come from tanking. NYI and Columbus tanked for years, and it's proper management that's turning them around. Edm has sucked regardless of where they draft. The Sens turned into a contender by hiring a good GM, getting Martin to coach and drafting well in the middle of the round, not by drafting Daigle, Bonk and Phillips.

Edit: High picks are consolation prizes for the misery you went through, not the goal.

Every team gets success in different ways. Neither way is guaranteed or better. Theres examples of both working and not working. Management is definitely the key aspect. Which is why Murray should have been fired a long time ago. He's a head scout, not a GM. He's perhaps the best at finding NHLer players from the draft but average at best at drafting core players.

This season is a loss. We gain nothing by winning. We gain a greater pool of players to choose from by losing. The bigger the pool, the better the chance we can draft a player that takes us out of the treadmill of mediocrity.

I'd gladly be a good team that always has success because of their mid round picks but clearly that isn't happening right now.

 

[Ice-Tray]

So who on our roster currently is equal to the caliber of players you've listed above? In terms of elite talent, we have Karlsson. Close to him is Ryan. In the second tier, you have Turris, MacArthur, Methot, etc. And it's too early to tell what Hoffman, Zib, Stone and Ceci will plateau at, but I think it's fair to say they will be at least second tier guys.

If we hade more Karlsson type players, then I'd look at this roster and say management has done a great job of building a quality roster around them. In my opinion, where Murray et al. have failed is finding the truly "next-level" guys to push the roster into being truly competitive. Hence, why you now have a team that is mediocre.

That's why I'm not against this team losing out and drafting very high. That one player and the subsequent high second round pick, can boost this roster far more than just another 14th overall pick can.

For once, I would like us to have a guy who can put up 90+ points and carry the load offensively. Scoring by committee isn't working with this team and I don't see one player on this roster or Bingo's that will ever reach that mark.

We had a guy like that and he was run out of town. There was very little respect shown our offensive dynamo when he was here, and judging by the way portions of the fanbase treat EK, Neil, Andy, and others, can we really expect any different towards players that are elite in a specific area of hockey?

Christ, even Alfie was derided for years pre cup run. This city just can handle nice things, it's perfect or bust, literally. The only time when there is the slightest bit of patience and understanding is when a player is in their first year, or the first half of their second year.

Very interesting watching this fanbase operate (of which I consider myself a part of course).

 

[DylanSensFan]

those kids came into the league with a pretty decent vets to help them out unlike the EDM kids

Crosby had Lemieux
Stamkos had Vinny and Stlouis
Tavares had Weight
Toews was surrounded by sharp, lang, kane, seabrooke, ladd, bolland, byfuglien, and keith

Those guys might have been at the end of their career but their experience brought a lot to the table for the young guys

even Karlsson had Gonchar (who he admitted was a great help)/Kuba and Alfie

Myers had Tallinder

Those are just off the top of my head but having vets who have had long sucessful careers surrounding your young guys is important which is why i am fine with Phillips and Legwand being here.

Ottawa already admitted that Legwand made a difference in the room on the first day

I have no problem with the Vets either... look what Phillips is doing for Lazar. My point is that this fan base is so afraid to ruin players... I call it the Daigle syndrome. We are not going to ruin these players, just let them play. Lazar is going to be a good solid player in this league and may even reach 50 - 60 points one day. He just needs time to get used to the pace of play.

Lets look at Edmonton's last game after they added a few good vets... last night they outplayed Chicago pretty handily and created a lot of chances.

 

[DrunkUncleDenis]

I would also like a top-10 player in the league. Who wouldn't?

While we're at it, I'd also like a Norris-caliber shutdown defenceman and a goalie who can consistently put up 10+ shutouts a year with a sub-2.20 GAA. And Scotty Bowman as coach. And an owner who is willing to spend to the cap every year. And unlimited buyouts.

And unlimited free refills!

 

[DylanSensFan]

We had a guy like that and he was run out of town. There was very little respect shown our offensive dynamo when he was here, and judging by the way portions of the fanbase treat EK, Neil, Andy, and others, can we really expect any different towards players that are elite in a specific area of hockey?

Christ, even Alfie was derided for years pre cup run. This city just can handle nice things, it's perfect or bust, literally. The only time when there is the slightest bit of patience and understanding is when a player is in their first year, or the first half of their second year.

Very interesting watching this fanbase operate (of which I consider myself a part of course).

We want this 90pnt player, but what we give up on the other end is defensive responsibility. Chicago scores by committee and they have a few players who reach 70 - 80pnts. Toews wins faceoffs, and wins battles, as well a scoring timely goals, but he rarely gives up the puck as much as Jason Spezza did. This is the difference. Even this year Spezza is a minus player. Seguin is not.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Every team gets success in different ways. Neither way is guaranteed or better. Theres examples of both working and not working. Management is definitely the key aspect. Which is why Murray should have been fired a long time ago. He's a head scout, not a GM. He's perhaps the best at finding NHLer players from the draft but average at best at drafting core players.

This season is a loss. We gain nothing by winning. We gain a greater pool of players to choose from by losing. The bigger the pool, the better the chance we can draft a player that takes us out of the treadmill of mediocrity.

I'd gladly be a good team that always has success because of their mid round picks but clearly that isn't happening right now.

Negative Nancy at it again, I'm actually starting to feel bad for you. You are this boards Eeyore, it must be tough way to live when everything around you is done so much better.

Perhaps you should be patient and see how this rebuild of players pans out.

I mean surely you haven't already concluded how Ceci, Lazar, Zibby, Puemple, Prince, Pageau, etc are going to pan out once they've got at least 200 games under their belt have you?

All your knee jerking will do nothing but leave you with a broken leg.

 

[HSF]

We had a guy like that and he was run out of town. There was very little respect shown our offensive dynamo when he was here, and judging by the way portions of the fanbase treat EK, Neil, Andy, and others, can we really expect any different towards players that are elite in a specific area of hockey?

Christ, even Alfie was derided for years pre cup run. This city just can handle nice things, it's perfect or bust, literally. The only time when there is the slightest bit of patience and understanding is when a player is in their first year, or the first half of their second year.

Very interesting watching this fanbase operate (of which I consider myself a part of course).

agreed with this


its actually disgusting how some people treat Phillips here when he was a defensive stud for us for years. Players notice how fanbases treat their own players

 

[DrEasy]

I'm getting tired of people saying "look at Edmonton." That's a once in a generation kind of flop. The Islanders, Kings, Penguins, Blackhawks, Lightning, and even the Panthers were bad for lots of years but now are contenders (or in the Panthers case, a playoff contender).

I agree. Of course drafting first doesn't 100% guarantee success. Nothing in sports does. But your odds are improved if you draft higher. Edmonton is an outlier, not the stereotype.

The problem is that we like attaching a posteriori narratives to outcomes. The Islanders were considered a badly run team, but now that Tavares and co have made it competitive we say they benefited from good management unlike Edmonton. I'm pretty sure they would have remained a terrible team if they hadn't drafted Tavares.

I'm not saying good management or surrounding your players with vets don't matter - of course they do - but not as much as the overall talent you can assemble.

 

[ChocolateLeclaire]

Where do you expect to get that guy? top 2 pick this year might get you that, but we are no where near bad enough to get that. There are currently how many 90 pt players in this league??? Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos and Maybe Giroux?

We're going in circles here. You started by saying that there are numerous ways to build teams. I followed with why I would like the team to draft highly, because the roster, as it stands, isn't competitive enough with any of the top teams in the league. A high pick, giving us a player that is potentially elite in ability, would complement this current roster immensely and avoid the need for a complete overhaul.

If management continues on the current path of trying to compete enough to be a bubble team, we'll continue to see the same results as this season and last season.

Again, I'll re-iterate that I'm not cheering for losses, but I get why others want the team to lose out. This team doesn't have the horses to win consistently in the NHL. There won't be any impact free agent signings to change that so the draft is the only real hope to turn it around.

 

[Ice-Tray]

I agree. Of course drafting first doesn't 100% guarantee success. Nothing in sports does. But your odds are improved if you draft higher. Edmonton is an outlier, not the stereotype.

The problem is that we like attaching a posteriori narratives to outcomes. The Islanders were considered a badly run team, but now that Tavares and co have made it competitive we say they benefited from good management unlike Edmonton. I'm pretty sure they would have remained a terrible team if they hadn't drafted Tavares.

I'm not saying good management or surrounding your players with vets don't matter - of course they do - but not as much as the overall talent you can assemble.

We're not a bad enough team to get a top pick, you're just going to have to deal with it. As other have said, the only way that would happen is if we trade or bury our best players.

Love how some folks love to ride Murray for assembling a young squad, with the least amount of NHL games under their belt, who for all the frustrating play can't seem to crack the bottom ten in sucking, like this is a bad thing.

We're young players with upward potential, and we can't even suck enough for a top pick, damn you Murray for putting together a team that doesn't suck, and will only get better, damn you!!!!