Senators will submit bid for Lebreton Flats

[jason2020]

Not even close to happening. Right now the estimate of the Tunneys to Lincoln Fields extension wil start in 2023. At that rate a line to Kanata is not likely done until 2040 or beyond.

Your right my point was people saying the public should use transit.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

That isn't true.

The Senators are a profitable team, and the money from ticket sales would not all be funnelled into Toronto or Montreal.

Both those teams sell out every single game, the income from ticket sales is maximized.

Any additional money made from tickets in Ottawa is icing on the NHLs cake. The only way your argument is (maybe) valid, is merchandise sales. But I'd even argue that if you have a team in your city you are much, much more likely to make a merchandise purchase, increasing the overall merchandise sales from the three cities.

With so many deficit teams, there is next to no possibility the NHL is looking to move a profitable team.

I'm not saying Ottawa is likely to move.

What I am saying, is if the Sens do move, the league won't lose much revenue from the city. The majority of fans here still ( ) aren't Sens fans, 99% of hockey fans in the city will still watch the game on TV and buy merchandise whether we have a team or not, we'll still be a valued TV market to court for either Montreal, Toronto (or Quebec City) to court as part of their expanded viewing region. There's still a nice pile of money in this city for the NHL whether a team exists or not.

The fans out there who take the Sens for granted...the ones who go "oh, I'll keep my money in my pockets, and whenever the team makes the playoffs, then I'll buy a ticket"...that crowd....if that crowd becomes the majority, then Ottawa could be in trouble down the line. That's what we have to watch out for.

 

[Engineer]

I'm not saying Ottawa is likely to move.

Reread my response if that's what you think the subject of my response was

What I am saying, is if the Sens do move, the league won't lose much revenue from the city.

This is easily proven wrong with ticket sales:
Both Montreal and Toronto sell out EVERY game. Their ticket sales are maximized, they CANNOT be increased in those regions, fans from Ottawa going to Montreal/Toronto games changes nothing for ticket revenue.
Ottawa allows the ticket sales in the Montreal/Toronto/Ottawa region to increase substantially.
Moving the Ottawa team results in a decrease in ticket sales in this region = revenue loss for the NHL.

The majority of fans here still ( ) aren't Sens fans,

Reference please

99% of hockey fans in the city will still watch the game on TV and buy merchandise whether we have a team or not

I find that hard to believe that a city will watch hockey equivalently if there is no team in the city, if that was the case, you could argue the exact same thing about the city the team moves to, all the hockey fans should already be watching other cities on gamecenter.
I also find it extremely hard to believe that people are likely to buy the equivalent amount of merchandise if the city doesn't have a team.

we'll still be a valued TV market to court for either Montreal, Toronto (or Quebec City) to court as part of their expanded viewing region.

Quebec city, what benefit is there from moving a team to a city that already cheers for Montreal?
All your arguments can be repeated against moving to Quebec - a city with a far smaller population than Ottawa, and a smaller arena.

There's still a nice pile of money in this city for the NHL whether a team exists or not.

Significantly less - as explained by this and my last response

The fans out there who take the Sens for granted...the ones who go "oh, I'll keep my money in my pockets, and whenever the team makes the playoffs, then I'll buy a ticket"...that crowd....if that crowd becomes the majority, then Ottawa could be in trouble down the line. That's what we have to watch out for.

Silly rant, I can propose a billion if statements, they mean nothing.

Why don't you answer why the NHL would move a profitable team, when there are so many deficit teams?

 

[Do Make Say Think]

So Baird is quitting government today or tomorrow

That does not bode well for the Senators' NCC/Lebreton aspirations unfortunately

EDIT: seems I'm a bit late

Huh, well that's certainly news.

I wonder what he plans to do with his life now that he's stepping out of politics? He's been in office or running for office since he was like 25 years old, and has been involved in politics since he was a teenager. His university degree is in political science. It's his entire career.

I read something about him heading to the WHO

 

[jason2020]

I'm not saying Ottawa is likely to move.

What I am saying, is if the Sens do move, the league won't lose much revenue from the city. The majority of fans here still ( ) aren't Sens fans, 99% of hockey fans in the city will still watch the game on TV and buy merchandise whether we have a team or not, we'll still be a valued TV market to court for either Montreal, Toronto (or Quebec City) to court as part of their expanded viewing region. There's still a nice pile of money in this city for the NHL whether a team exists or not.

The fans out there who take the Sens for granted...the ones who go "oh, I'll keep my money in my pockets, and whenever the team makes the playoffs, then I'll buy a ticket"...that crowd....if that crowd becomes the majority, then Ottawa could be in trouble down the line. That's what we have to watch out for.

Toronto takes its teams for granted as well.

 

[Dr.Sens(e)]

I'm not saying Ottawa is likely to move.

What I am saying, is if the Sens do move, the league won't lose much revenue from the city. The majority of fans here still ( ) aren't Sens fans, 99% of hockey fans in the city will still watch the game on TV and buy merchandise whether we have a team or not, we'll still be a valued TV market to court for either Montreal, Toronto (or Quebec City) to court as part of their expanded viewing region. There's still a nice pile of money in this city for the NHL whether a team exists or not.

The fans out there who take the Sens for granted...the ones who go "oh, I'll keep my money in my pockets, and whenever the team makes the playoffs, then I'll buy a ticket"...that crowd....if that crowd becomes the majority, then Ottawa could be in trouble down the line. That's what we have to watch out for.

Meh, our cities biggest employer can't buy tickets and all of the companies that sell to government, can't take clients. Yet still, the teams sells tons of tickets to games, which are for the most part, coming out of hockey fans pockets with after tax dollars. This from a market size of 1 million people.

Per capita, Ottawa is easily spending more personal $'s on the Sens than at least 25 other NHL teams, and they might be right there in the top 2 or 3.

There are bandwagon fans in every city, and the fact that Ottawa has loyal fans to other teams - typically because they liked that team before the Sens came along - is nothing to lament. It's what makes Ottawa a pretty unique hockey market. Hockey crazed, but cosmopolitan in their fan base. Accept it, or perhaps, even embrace it.

 

[starling]

Not even close to happening. Right now the estimate of the Tunneys to Lincoln Fields extension wil start in 2023. At that rate a line to Kanata is not likely done until 2040 or beyond.

New arena won't be happening before 2023 in any case either.

 

[MiscBrah]

We've been over this multiple times over the years, but Ottawa's fan base is about to boom. The sens are just past their 20th anniversary. That means that the people who started cheering for the team when they were just growing up are hitting their 20's.

Guy's like me, who are about to turn 25, finally have enough disposable income to start buying tickets on a regular basis. The sens aren't going anywhere, this fan base is going to get exponentially stronger in the next decade.

 

[FuriousSenator]

This is easily proven wrong with ticket sales:
Both Montreal and Toronto sell out EVERY game. Their ticket sales are maximized, they CANNOT be increased in those regions, fans from Ottawa going to Montreal/Toronto games changes nothing for ticket revenue.
Ottawa allows the ticket sales in the Montreal/Toronto/Ottawa region to increase substantially.
Moving the Ottawa team results in a decrease in ticket sales in this region = revenue loss for the NHL.

He's not talking about ticket revenue. Who actually still believes pro sports in N. America depend on ticket sales....

I find that hard to believe that a city will watch hockey equivalently if there is no team in the city, if that was the case, you could argue the exact same thing about the city the team moves to, all the hockey fans should already be watching other cities on gamecenter.
I also find it extremely hard to believe that people are likely to buy the equivalent amount of merchandise if the city doesn't have a team.

You don't really understand the dynamics of Ottawa then. No other city in N. America is sandwiched so closely between two other pro NHL markets (massive ones at that). The guy doesn't need a reference. The proof is in the pudding; a significant significant majority of people in Ottawa follow non-Senators teams, buy their stuff and so on. Are you seriously going to tell me publicly on this board that if the Sens left you would never watch NHL or buy NHL gear or support a team? You're Canadian, of course you will.

If you move the Sens to say Wisconsin, you're gaining a ton of people who would never (and I do mean never) consider watching or following NHL hockey or buying NHL stuff. The reverse would not be true for Ottawa. Feasibly you could havea 'cake and eat it too' situation on your hands. You get a few grumblers in Ottawa and maybe a few people who will swear off the league; but for the most part now you've got more money in the pot overall.

Quebec city, what benefit is there from moving a team to a city that already cheers for Montreal?
All your arguments can be repeated against moving to Quebec - a city with a far smaller population than Ottawa, and a smaller arena.

And funnily enough no team is moving there....strange that.

Why don't you answer why the NHL would move a profitable team, when there are so many deficit teams?

Show me where Melnyk makes money off the team. References work both ways. The only things I read in the paper are how much he's lost.

 

[FuriousSenator]

We've been over this multiple times over the years, but Ottawa's fan base is about to boom. The sens are just past their 20th anniversary. That means that the people who started cheering for the team when they were just growing up are hitting their 20's.

Guy's like me, who are about to turn 25, finally have enough disposable income to start buying tickets on a regular basis. The sens aren't going anywhere, this fan base is going to get exponentially stronger in the next decade.

Despite my points above, this I agree with. Things are about to get a lot brighter.

Just don't assume because we're a Canadian market we get all the shiny hockey things for all time. You have to put your money where your mouth is here just like anywhere else.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Does anyone know that many kids who are Sens fans?

A lot of the younger crowd I know are Habs fans

 

[Smash88]

We've been over this multiple times over the years, but Ottawa's fan base is about to boom. The sens are just past their 20th anniversary. That means that the people who started cheering for the team when they were just growing up are hitting their 20's.

Guy's like me, who are about to turn 25, finally have enough disposable income to start buying tickets on a regular basis. The sens aren't going anywhere, this fan base is going to get exponentially stronger in the next decade.

The playoffs versus the Habs 2 years ago really reinforced this.

It was a very noticeable younger Sens crowd, a lot of Habs fans were really taken aback at the difference, they figured it was going to be just like usual basically a home game for them and it was anything but.

I knew a few people who worked at SBP at the time, apparently they got tons of complaints from Habs fans in that series as they were not used to a hostile crowd in Ottawa.

To me it was quite the eye opener as to the future sens fans who would be the future STH's.

There were a lot of them.

 

[Smash88]

Does anyone know that many kids who are Sens fans?

A lot of the younger crowd I know are Habs fans

In Kanata, seems most of the younger crowd (under 30) are Sens fans.

 

[WilderPegasus*]

You don't really understand the dynamics of Ottawa then. No other city in N. America is sandwiched so closely between two other pro NHL markets (massive ones at that). The guy doesn't need a reference. The proof is in the pudding; a significant significant majority of people in Ottawa follow non-Senators teams, buy their stuff and so on. Are you seriously going to tell me publicly on this board that if the Sens left you would never watch NHL or buy NHL gear or support a team? You're Canadian, of course you will.

Pick one of New York, Newark, or Philly. All closer to two other markets.

Next the majority of hockey fans in Ottawa are Senators fans. And it isn't even close. It's over a 2 to 1 ratio.

So please stop making things up that just aren't true.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

The playoffs versus the Habs 2 years ago really reinforced this.

It was a very noticeable younger Sens crowd, a lot of Habs fans were really taken aback at the difference, they figured it was going to be just like usual basically a home game for them and it was anything but.

I knew a few people who worked at SBP at the time, apparently they got tons of complaints from Habs fans in that series as they were not used to a hostile crowd in Ottawa.

To me it was quite the eye opener as to the future sens fans who would be the future STH's.

There were a lot of them.

Ha! That is awesome to hear

 

[Engineer]

He's not talking about ticket revenue. Who actually still believes pro sports in N. America depend on ticket sales....

Are you actually arguing ticket revenue is not important to the NHL business?

You don't really understand the dynamics of Ottawa then. No other city in N. America is sandwiched so closely between two other pro NHL markets (massive ones at that).

Uhm, you might want to look at a map of team locations... OTT MTL TOR isnt as close as you seem to think

These are all comparable, or significantly closer to eachother:

1. NYR, NYI, NJD
2. Buffalo Det Chicago
3. Phi NJD NYI
4. Phi NJD NYR
5. Buff NYR BOS
6. Buff PITS PHI
7. BUFF NYR NJD
8. BUFF NYR NYI
9. LA ANA ARI
10. WAS PHI NYR
11. WAS PHI NYI
12. PITS PHI WAS
13. DET CBS PITS

And im sure i missed many combinations in the New York area - especially since i only included Boston once, and purposefully didnt include Toronto or Montreal.

The proof is in the pudding
a significant significant majority of people in Ottawa follow non-Senators teams

Lol wow, that most definitely does need to be referenced.
You just repeated what he said, and somehow called it proof
The burden of proof is on you guys, who are claiming there is more non-Senators fans in the city.

Are you seriously going to tell me publicly on this board that if the Sens left you would never watch NHL or buy NHL gear or support a team? You're Canadian, of course you will.

It's the casual fans that matter. The merchandise casual fans purchase is likely to drop if a team relocates out of the city.

If you move the Sens to say Wisconsin, you're gaining a ton of people who would never (and I do mean never) consider watching or following NHL hockey or buying NHL stuff.

Wisconsin is directly beside Minnesota, and a northern state (more likely to already follow hockey since they get cold winters and can play outdoor hockey). They are likely already Minnesota fans.

I'd like to know why you think Wisconsin people never (and you do mean never) consider watching NHL? What is this based on? Do you think Minnesota residents didn't watch NHL before the Wild?

Hyperbole without anything to back your argument - like most of your post.

Show me where Melnyk makes money off the team. References work both ways. The only things I read in the paper are how much he's lost.

http://www.forbes.com/nhl-valuations/list/

22.5M profit. The 8th most profitable team.

 

[Golden_Jet]

http://www.forbes.com/nhl-valuations/list/

22.5M profit. The 8th most profitable team.

Well it's not profit... its EBITDA (Earnings Before Interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization).
Plus its Forbes best estimate, as they don't have access to the books.
Also the 80 cent dollar is not calculated in that.

 

[pepty]

Pick one of New York, Newark, or Philly. All closer to two other markets.

Next the majority of hockey fans in Ottawa are Senators fans. And it isn't even close. It's over a 2 to 1 ratio.

So please stop making things up that just aren't true.

Here's a hint.

Furious Senator is the new name for Ed the Sabres fan

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

Pick one of New York, Newark, or Philly. All closer to two other markets.

Next the majority of hockey fans in Ottawa are Senators fans. And it isn't even close. It's over a 2 to 1 ratio.

So please stop making things up that just aren't true.

The majority of fans in Kanata are Sens fans. For the rest of the city and east of the city, it's still rather difficult to find Sens fans in the crowd....unless Ottawa is the only team out of the 3 (Tor, Mtl and us) in the playoffs. It's slooooowly starting to get better, but it has a very long way to go.

I really hope the next/upcoming generation will help solve this....but we can see in places like NYC that a couple generations still isn't enough to take a significant chunk of fans away from the Rangers to the Devils and Islanders....and that's with those two franchises having a few Cups under their belts.


Anyhoo.....my main basis for bringing the whole thing up, is not to take the team for granted. All this mud slinging about Melynk just blowing smoke to "get his way," or people saying they won't spend money on a losing team, etc, etc, is a very dangerous route to go down. Yes, we are a good market, but the league can absolutely pull the plug if things go hairy here. Pretty much the only teams in this league that are rock solid in their city are the original 6 teams. We can't lose sight of that. Not saying we have to throw piles of money at Melynk's feet and give him whatever he wants.....but at the same time, we can't afford to put miles of red tape and bureaucratic ******** in his way, either. Time for the NCC to stop acting like pretentious asshats and work with the city and team (for a change).

Uhm, you might want to look at a map of team locations... OTT MTL TOR isnt as close as you seem to think

These are all comparable, or significantly closer to eachother:

1. NYR, NYI, NJD
2. Buffalo Det Chicago
3. Phi NJD NYI
4. Phi NJD NYR
5. Buff NYR BOS
6. Buff PITS PHI
7. BUFF NYR NJD
8. BUFF NYR NYI
9. LA ANA ARI
10. WAS PHI NYR
11. WAS PHI NYI
12. PITS PHI WAS
13. DET CBS PITS

And im sure i missed many combinations in the New York area - especially since i only included Boston once, and purposefully didnt include Toronto or Montreal.

There is one hell of a big difference between the Buffalos, Washingtons and Islanders of the world and Toronto & Montreal.

We are the only team sandwiched between the two biggest original 6 teams in the league. The two biggest markets in the league. The two most storied franchises in the league. The two biggest revenue producers in the league.

That is huge. No matter what Ottawa ever does, we will always be the little brother to those two teams. We could become a dynasty and win the next 10 Cups in a row, and we'll still be third string in Eastern Canada.

We'll always be hamstrung by our sub-1 million population and the fact our biggest employer can't get involved in purchasing tickets, boxes and merchandise.

 

[WilderPegasus*]

The majority of fans in Kanata are Sens fans. For the rest of the city and east of the city, it's still rather difficult to find Sens fans in the crowd....unless Ottawa is the only team out of the 3 (Tor, Mtl and us) in the playoffs. It's slooooowly starting to get better, but it has a very long way to go.

I really hope the next/upcoming generation will help solve this....but we can see in places like NYC that a couple generations still isn't enough to take a significant chunk of fans away from the Rangers to the Devils and Islanders....and that's with those two franchises having a few Cups under their belts.


Anyhoo.....my main basis for bringing the whole thing up, is not to take the team for granted. All this mud slinging about Melynk just blowing smoke to "get his way," or people saying they won't spend money on a losing team, etc, etc, is a very dangerous route to go down. Yes, we are a good market, but the league can absolutely pull the plug if things go hairy here. Pretty much the only teams in this league that are rock solid in their city are the original 6 teams. We can't lose sight of that. Not saying we have to throw piles of money at Melynk's feet and give him whatever he wants.....but at the same time, we can't afford to put miles of red tape and bureaucratic ******** in his way, either. Time for the NCC to stop acting like pretentious asshats and work with the city and team (for a change).



There is one hell of a big difference between the Buffalos, Washingtons and Islanders of the world and Toronto & Montreal.

We are the only team sandwiched between the two biggest original 6 teams in the league. The two biggest markets in the league. The two most storied franchises in the league. The two biggest revenue producers in the league.

That is huge. No matter what Ottawa ever does, we will always be the little brother to those two teams. We could become a dynasty and win the next 10 Cups in a row, and we'll still be third string in Eastern Canada.

We'll always be hamstrung by our sub-1 million population and the fact our biggest employer can't get involved in purchasing tickets, boxes and merchandise.

You've got so many things completely wrong that I don't know where to start.

The majority of hockey fans in Ottawa are Senators fans. There have been polls done on this and this one here http://www.compas.ca/data/020513-OttawansNHLPassions-C.pdf puts it at 72% Senators to 7% Toronto to 6% Montreal. I have no idea why you would be under the silly notion that it is difficult to find Sens fans outside of Kanata.

The NCC has no need to work with the Senators if they don't want to. You're again under this misguided notion that NHL teams move often. Only one team has moved in the past 30 years that has had an NHL quality arena - Atlanta - and they were forced out by the owners of the arena. The Senators are not close to being a relocation candidate regardless of what happens with Lebreton Flats.

When it comes to being sandwiched between bigger markets/teams, I like how you lump in Buffalo, Washington and Uniondale instead of New York, Philly and Boston. The Islanders in Uniondale are between the Rangers (biggest market and revenue generator in the league) and Boston (bigger market than Montreal). The Devils in Newark are between bigger markets in New York and Philly.

And Ottawa is not a sub-1 million in population market.

 

[Tnouc Alucard]

He's not talking about ticket revenue. Who actually still believes pro sports in N. America depend on ticket sales....

By far, the NHLs greatest source of revenue comes from Ticket sales. It used to be around 80%, but with recent TV deals it's lower now.

Just to put it into perspective, the NFL does not need to sell one single ticket to turn a profit, as their TV contract gives each team a profit before they open up tickets sales for the up coming season.

Also, the LA Lakers regional TV contract, earns the (one single team) more money, than the Deal the NHL made with NBC a couple years ago, for the entire league.

http://www.statista.com/topics/960/national-hockey-league/

http://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey/2012/01/01/for_nhl_the_cash_is_in_canada.html

 

[jason2020]

You've got so many things completely wrong that I don't know where to start.

The majority of hockey fans in Ottawa are Senators fans. There have been polls done on this and this one here http://www.compas.ca/data/020513-OttawansNHLPassions-C.pdf puts it at 72% Senators to 7% Toronto to 6% Montreal. I have no idea why you would be under the silly notion that it is difficult to find Sens fans outside of Kanata.

The NCC has no need to work with the Senators if they don't want to. You're again under this misguided notion that NHL teams move often. Only one team has moved in the past 30 years that has had an NHL quality arena - Atlanta - and they were forced out by the owners of the arena. The Senators are not close to being a relocation candidate regardless of what happens with Lebreton Flats.

When it comes to being sandwiched between bigger markets/teams, I like how you lump in Buffalo, Washington and Uniondale instead of New York, Philly and Boston. The Islanders in Uniondale are between the Rangers (biggest market and revenue generator in the league) and Boston (bigger market than Montreal). The Devils in Newark are between bigger markets in New York and Philly.

And Ottawa is not a sub-1 million in population market.

Ottawa-Gatineau is around 1.4 million.

 

[Upgrayedd]

In Kanata, seems most of the younger crowd (under 30) are Sens fans.

There are of course the odd fringe people out there whos parents still enforce cheering for Mtl or Tor, but for the most part i completely agree. Just goto a game and see the diversity in the crowds especially in the large 30 and under market. Maybe it's just me but i have also noticed a significant growth in the female market as well. Now we just need to tap into the market right across the river and will be golden.

Honestly brings a tear to my eye seeing a young boy or girl supporting the team strongly and i usually go out of my way to ackowledge it in hopes of creating a strong positive memory similar to my own days as a youth.

 

[jason2020]

So Baird is quitting government today or tomorrow

That does not bode well for the Senators' NCC/Lebreton aspirations unfortunately

EDIT: seems I'm a bit late



I read something about him heading to the WHO

Baird leaving will have little to no impact on the flats.

 

[Ice-Tray]

There are of course the odd fringe people out there whos parents still enforce cheering for Mtl or Tor, but for the most part i completely agree. Just goto a game and see the diversity in the crowds especially in the large 30 and under market. Maybe it's just me but i have also noticed a significant growth in the female market as well. Now we just need to tap into the market right across the river and will be golden.

Honestly brings a tear to my eye seeing a young boy or girl supporting the team strongly and i usually go out of my way to ackowledge it in hopes of creating a strong positive memory similar to my own days as a youth.

For some reason I liked this line, and oddly enough it has little to do with what the words together are supposed to mean...

Interesting....