Silver Seven Senators Remain at Odds with Outside Scouting Consensus

Tuna99

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Sep 26, 2009
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the online scouting guys hate Mann because there is no more clearer example of Mann being a real scout and these guys being hyped HFboard posters with access to the same information we have, so they lash out because Mann makes them look pedestrian.

Years ago when Mann found Batherson and he made the WJC team the word on sports radio was that other teams were looking at Ottawa to learn how they found this guy.

Now we’re years later, Mann is still doing this with guys like Merilainen and drafting unranked players - and the talk now is we have the problem and not the solutions.

so weird how one minute your a genius, but if that genius works for you and the rest of the league doesn’t move towards your scouting methods, you’re genius then gets defined as bad and that long term bad behaviour will blow up in your face and you should just get with the program with the rest of the NHL.


weird
 

Ice-Tray

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Jan 31, 2006
16,358
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Everyone has to legitimize themselves in a zero barriers to entry situation like blogging and twotting.

Mann and Murray are the best examples of people who endanger that entire cottage industry. Their very presence discredits virtually all of the stats based drafting crap put out online.

When blogger Joe’s carefully curated ‘expertise’ are threatened, he does what all these clowns do, lash out online from their basement.

I like Mann’s response, pretty much ‘ain’t nobody got time for that’.

I live in reality…. Simple and effective.
 
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Masked

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Apr 16, 2017
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Years ago when Mann found Batherson and he made the WJC team the word on sports radio was that other teams were looking at Ottawa to learn how they found this guy.

When Mann makes an off the board pick, pro scouts wonder what they missed about the player while draft "experts" grade Mann an F. I think that says all that's needed to be said about the "experts".

Assen na yo!
 

DueDiligence

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Nov 16, 2013
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Hell, how many Art Ross trophies have been won over the last 40 years by Pittsburgh and Edmonton players? Most of them? It's not an indication of stellar drafting, they simply lucked into being in the right place at the right time
Well it's a "real talent" in drafting when a consensus generational talent like Crosby or McDavid are available and your team has the number one pick. And it was a real reach for a team like Pittsburgh to get Malkin at #2 one year before Crosby. Those two picks basically guaranteed 15 years of success regardless of who else they drafted.
 

SlapJack

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Dec 6, 2010
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Well it's a "real talent" in drafting when a consensus generational talent like Crosby or McDavid are available and your team has the number one pick. And it was a real reach for a team like Pittsburgh to get Malkin at #2 one year before Crosby. Those two picks basically guaranteed 15 years of success regardless of who else they drafted.

Funny thing about getting Malkin was that it allowed them to get Crosby too. The rules for the 2005 draft gave worse odds to win the #1 pick to teams that had won the draft lottery recently. They traded for Fleury's pick in 2003 so that didn't count, and were the worst team in 03-04 but lost the Ovechkin sweepstakes to Washington. Had they won that draft, then no Crosby. Washington ended up with Sasha Pokuluk in 2005.

I honestly don't think Pittsburgh wins any cups with Ovechkin. Washington only got the one and they drafted extremely well over the years to compliment Ovi.
 

Beech

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Nov 25, 2020
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Each and every one of your points is myopic home team whining at best. Just the Art Ross example alone is ludicrous. Edmonton must be one of the best drafting teams in the league by a MILE since they've captured 4 out of the last 5 trophies there. They're absolute shit at it.

Hell, how many Art Ross trophies have been won over the last 40 years by Pittsburgh and Edmonton players? Most of them? It's not an indication of stellar drafting, they simply lucked into being in the right place at the right time.
so, Edmonton owned the 1980's. They did reasonable well the 1990's. The did well from ~ 2000-2005. Sank like a stone for 10 years and have spent the last 6 near the top of the league. They have made the playoffs well over 50% of their time in the league. Have gone to 7 cup finals, winning 5. Losing a hard fought game 7 in their last appearance. Their stable of achievements by individual players would rank them fairly high (trophies, accomplishments).

If they are shit at it..can the Sens please have that shit. Since I already documented the Sens 6 top 11 in the 02-14 window. Edmonton got 9. And it is their 15-21 draft that is causing problems. While Sens appear to have 8 top 11's. The Oilers are at 1.

Like I said, If you want to laud the Sens present staff for great drafting, do so. If you want to make outlandish statements that the Sens are a great drafting team and has been for the entirety of the 2000's, please don't. If anything, they have been poor.

The promotion of Dorion seems to have had the desired affect. The amateur side seems to have improved immeasurably. Let's hope that the long term results reflect the short term patterns. And let's hope that the Sens have learned a valuable lesson on being careful with the amateur side. That constant monitoring is needed. That constant checking on results is needed. That dead periods like 02-07 which produced 1 top 11, and the 12-14 which produced 1 (maybe) cannot happen again. 9 f'ng years, a grand total of 2 top 11 players.

Do an assessment of the 1993-2002 ten years...18 top 11's. Some years they produced 3 players. Come 2002, it was like a switch being turned off for 14 years. Hello John Muckler. Hello Brian Murray.
 

Korpse

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They sold low on him after a disappointing first season in NA.

Bet they wish they hadn't done that. Dahlen still has top 6 potential.

Meh. He's played two seasons in a second tier league. We will find out shortly and if things don't turn out well he will be back in Sweden in no time, at least it will be the SHL this time.
 

aragorn

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Aug 8, 2004
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the online scouting guys hate Mann because there is no more clearer example of Mann being a real scout and these guys being hyped HFboard posters with access to the same information we have, so they lash out because Mann makes them look pedestrian.

Years ago when Mann found Batherson and he made the WJC team the word on sports radio was that other teams were looking at Ottawa to learn how they found this guy.

Now we’re years later, Mann is still doing this with guys like Merilainen and drafting unranked players - and the talk now is we have the problem and not the solutions.

so weird how one minute your a genius, but if that genius works for you and the rest of the league doesn’t move towards your scouting methods, you’re genius then gets defined as bad and that long term bad behaviour will blow up in your face and you should just get with the program with the rest of the NHL.


weird

He did the same thing with Sokolov & IMO could have another steal with Greig.
 
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Korpse

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He did the same thing with Sokolov & IMO could have another steal with Carson Latimer.

From my limited viewings of the Oil Kings I didn't see the offensive upside with Latimer. Reinhardt or Kasteltic are probably more appropriate comparisons. Though Latimer isn't an overeager but more in the mold of those two than Batherson or Sokolov.
 
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aragorn

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From my limited viewings of the Oil Kings I didn't see the offensive upside with Latimer. Reinhardt or Kasteltic are probably more appropriate comparisons. Though Latimer isn't an overeager but more in the mold of those two than Batherson or Sokolov.
Shit en anglais la ... I wrote Latimer, but meant Greig as a late 1st rd pick. I also think I put my wallet in the fridge, what a day I'm having.
 

SlapJack

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Dec 6, 2010
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They sold low on him after a disappointing first season in NA.

Bet they wish they hadn't done that. Dahlen still has top 6 potential.

I don't think any tears are being shed for giving up on a player that's almost 24 and has yet to set foot on NHL ice. If Dahlen ever ends up as a top 6 player, it will be on a crappy team.

Dahlen and Balcers might be in San Jose's top 6 putting up a few points and there will be hemming and hawing about letting go of good assets. Meanwhile, the only thing San Jose will be competing for in the immediate future is the rights to draft Wright and Bedard, and once they get a few good forwards in their prospect pool, those 2 plugs will either be traded to a new crappy team or flying back to Europe.

Logan Brown still has more value than Dahlen and we know he wouldn't bring much back now, so holding on to assets like that ain't a good thing. We got more than Vancouver did out of it.
 
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SlapJack

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so, Edmonton owned the 1980's. They did reasonable well the 1990's. The did well from ~ 2000-2005. Sank like a stone for 10 years and have spent the last 6 near the top of the league. They have made the playoffs well over 50% of their time in the league. Have gone to 7 cup finals, winning 5. Losing a hard fought game 7 in their last appearance. Their stable of achievements by individual players would rank them fairly high (trophies, accomplishments).

If they are shit at it..can the Sens please have that shit. Since I already documented the Sens 6 top 11 in the 02-14 window. Edmonton got 9. And it is their 15-21 draft that is causing problems. While Sens appear to have 8 top 11's. The Oilers are at 1.

Like I said, If you want to laud the Sens present staff for great drafting, do so. If you want to make outlandish statements that the Sens are a great drafting team and has been for the entirety of the 2000's, please don't. If anything, they have been poor.

The promotion of Dorion seems to have had the desired affect. The amateur side seems to have improved immeasurably. Let's hope that the long term results reflect the short term patterns. And let's hope that the Sens have learned a valuable lesson on being careful with the amateur side. That constant monitoring is needed. That constant checking on results is needed. That dead periods like 02-07 which produced 1 top 11, and the 12-14 which produced 1 (maybe) cannot happen again. 9 f'ng years, a grand total of 2 top 11 players.

Do an assessment of the 1993-2002 ten years...18 top 11's. Some years they produced 3 players. Come 2002, it was like a switch being turned off for 14 years. Hello John Muckler. Hello Brian Murray.

No team in the NHL hits homeruns every year and has dry stretches where they don't hit the mark. And there's a lot of variables that whatever metric you're applying does not take into consideration.

Ottawa has more NHL games played than any other team in the 21st century. Like they are #1. That stat alone does not tell a full story since it could be all 3rd liners and no impact players at all, but it's significant all in its own.

The 2002-07 drought was a big old pile of shit, no doubt. You know who else were at the bottom with Ottawa during those years? New Jersey and Tampa Bay. Coincidentally those 2 teams were also making Stanley Cup runs during that period and consistently had their earliest picks in the 20s. Ottawa picked 28th once and 29th twice during that time. And half the 1st rounders they selected were very good picks, they just didn't end up being stars. Which you shouldn't expect in that range. Foligno, Eaves, and Meszaros were astute selections.

Those years were also not strong drafts overall when looked at as a whole. Ottawa made further missteps by banking on Russian players with day 2 picks they never panned out. When you look at guys Ottawa selected and then peer at the next 3 or 4 guys taken, a lot of the time the other pro scouts whiffed just as much.

And I don't understand your top 11 valuation whatsoever. It seems to be more stringent looking at Ottawa picks than other teams.

Nobody is saying that Ottawa is the greatest drafting team and they they're infallible. But over time they have been quite good with peaks and valleys that are expected of any team. There's literally a thread on the prospects board right now where other team's fans continually list Ottawa near the top, with several analytic methodologies sparkled in there to back up those assertions.

At worst, they're average for the NHL.
 

Nac Mac Feegle

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Jun 10, 2011
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They sold low on him after a disappointing first season in NA.

Bet they wish they hadn't done that. Dahlen still has top 6 potential.

Nah...his value now isn't what it was when we moved him. And that's ok.

It's like the stock market...buy low, sell high. We sold low on him for sure, but at least the kid didn't break out and make us really look horrible.
 

Beech

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No team in the NHL hits homeruns every year and has dry stretches where they don't hit the mark. And there's a lot of variables that whatever metric you're applying does not take into consideration.

-----------

And I don't understand your top 11 valuation whatsoever. It seems to be more stringent looking at Ottawa picks than other teams.

Nobody is saying that Ottawa is the greatest drafting team and they they're infallible. But over time they have been quite good with peaks and valleys that are expected of any team. There's literally a thread on the prospects board right now where other team's fans continually list Ottawa near the top, with several analytic methodologies sparkled in there to back up those assertions.

At worst, they're average for the NHL.
I believe that you win thanks principally to top 11's. Your top 2 lines, thus 6 forwards, your top 4 Dmen and your starting goalie. These are valued assets and are rarely available in trade or reasonable free agency. Only poor GM's would trade away a top 11 player, unless he is certain of getting one back. And unless you are a very poor GM, you should never trade a top 11 for a player(s) who is not in the top 11. It is the Stone for Brannstrom trade (let's hope that Sokolov develops into a top 11).

Free agency can get you a top 11..but they are 27 and older, will want big dollars and the transplant can be "a shock". Hello Dadonov. Perhaps the best example of a huge mistake may come to be, Tavares.

So, you had better draft yourself a top 11 contingent. The bulk you keep, the rest you may trade. And you will, thanks to being in a small market, lose some in free agency. Failure to do so, will mean poor results, an insufficient supply to use in trades and as some leave, your stock will be empty.

You live and die by your supply of top 11's. I don't impose this on Ottawa alone. You can painstakingly go through the entire league. And you will notice that from year one to about year 14/15 prior to any one season, a team that has done well in its top 11 drafting, is doing well in its play. In some instances, very few of those top 11 it may have drafted are still with them, but they were most likely used in trades to acquire top 11's. Best example: Mark Methot for Nick Foligno, a key in the 17 ECF. Heatly for Hossa (long term mistake, short term trip to the Cup Final in 07).

There is no magic. Analysis may show Ottawa has done better than Tampa in terms of total players in the league since about 2000. And yes, they have played more games. And collectively more points. I did that exercise 4 years ago. I even corrected for the round and pick number. I was so proud!! I thought that I had discovered new science...Well 3 cups for Tampa and a 4th appearance. 3 added trips to the ECF. Then I redid the analysis based purely on top 11 assessment. They ate the Sens lunch. Who cares if three to four, 3rd line player plays 10 years and get 300 points each. You need a 1st line player to play 10 years and get 800.

As for them being an average NHL drafting team. Again, inconsistent with the results. And any argument of "small market" and not keeping players, is not backed by reality. For 14 years, they stood at the podium and missed way more than they hit in rounds 1 and 2. And their 3-6/7/8 (as they may have existed) fared only marginally better. Hockeydb is available to you.
 
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aragorn

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It takes anywhere from 2 to 5 yrs with most drafted prospects before they are properly developed & we see what their potential in the NHL can be. By that time most have forgotten where these nimrods ranked these players & it doesn't matter how right or wrong they are. Hopefully, this scouting staff have made more right calls than wrong ones with their 1st rd picks because that is usually what is talked about the most, so far so good IMO.

The gems they find later that others have either not even ranked or were much deeper in the draft I always find amusing that they rarely ever mention those. I expect this scouting staff to once again do quite well in the 2022 & 2023 draft adding another 3 to 5 very good players to this future roster. Let them say what they want, results are what matters in the end & Ottawa seems to be getting some good results with a number of their drafted prospects.
 

Tnuoc Alucard

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Would still much rather had Dahlen as a trade chip than the 2 years of nothing provided by Burrows.
59 games in the AHL, a whooping 15 goals, and has yet to even play a second in the NHL…..

people made Jonathan Dahlen out to be the best prospect Ottawa had in their system, and were dumping all over Ottawa for trading him away.
 
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Cosmix

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59 games in the AHL, a whooping 15 goals, and has yet to even play a second in the NHL…..

people made Jonathan Dahlen out to be the best prospect Ottawa had in their system, and were dumping all over Ottawa for trading him away.

Dahlen was looking like a great pick in D+1 season. Burrows was beyond his best before date and looking for a retirement contract. Dorion gave up the promising Dahlen for an old vet in major decline. Gave Burrows a 2 year contract too. This was not a great move by the GM.
 

Golden_Jet

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Dahlen was looking like a great pick in D+1 season. Burrows was beyond his best before date and looking for a retirement contract. Dorion gave up the promising Dahlen for an old vet in major decline. Gave Burrows a 2 year contract too. This was not a great move by the GM.

Yep Burrows played more games in his first game here then Dahlen has at this point. What a promising prospect.
 

aragorn

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Without Burrows making the play up the boards to score the goal that put them into the conference final, it wouldn't have happened & they would not have gone to the finals that yr & been outed early once again. The cost to acquire Burrows who made that play was a bubble prospect whose loss has been less than insignificant. I imagine that the playoff revenue from the conference finals made up some of the cost.

Was it the best move, maybe not, but it was the move that helped propel them into the conference finals & that's what matters most I think to the organization. That was the point of acquiring Burrows in the first place to get them further along in the playoffs & that one play did just that. Clearly he was a shadow of his former self, but I imagine he helped the younger players in the two yrs that he was here.
 

Micklebot

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Without Burrows making the play up the boards to score the goal that put them into the conference final, it wouldn't have happened & they would not have gone to the finals that yr & been outed early once again. The cost to acquire Burrows who made that play was a bubble prospect whose loss has been less than insignificant. I imagine that the playoff revenue from the conference finals made up some of the cost.

Was it the best move, maybe not, but it was the move that helped propel them into the conference finals & that's what matters most I think to the organization. That was the point of acquiring Burrows in the first place to get them further along in the playoffs & that one play did just that. Clearly he was a shadow of his former self, but I imagine he helped the younger players in the two yrs that he was here.

I always find it interesting when people claim if not for Burrows, then we'd never have made the conference finals. Maybe that's true, maybe it's not, there really is no way of knowing what happens if we hadn't traded for him. Maybe White come in instead and plays well with the adrenaline, maybe we win the series in 7 game rather than 6, maybe we are swept in the first round. If you're going to take one goal he played a role in and determine that was the key to getting to the ECF, I'm sure you also must have done an analysis on every other time he stepped on the ice to determine he didn't play into some missed chances or goals against too, right?

The guy got 5 assists playing mostly in the top 6 with plenty of time on the PP. Really seems like some are giving him an outsized role in the team's success, you can certainly say we don't know if we would have made it that far if we changed anything since there's any number of variables, but we might as well say if not for Wingers we never make it
 

Golden_Jet

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I always find it interesting when people claim if not for Burrows, then we'd never have made the conference finals. Maybe that's true, maybe it's not, there really is no way of knowing what happens if we hadn't traded for him. Maybe White come in instead and plays well with the adrenaline, maybe we win the series in 7 game rather than 6, maybe we are swept in the first round. If you're going to take one goal he played a role in and determine that was the key to getting to the ECF, I'm sure you also must have done an analysis on every other time he stepped on the ice to determine he didn't play into some missed chances or goals against too, right?

The guy got 5 assists playing mostly in the top 6 with plenty of time on the PP. Really seems like some are giving him an outsized role in the team's success, you can certainly say we don't know if we would have made it that far if we changed anything since there's any number of variables, but we might as well say if not for Wingers we never make it

We can say he helped more than Dahlen, ever did or will.
 
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