Silver Seven Senators Remain at Odds with Outside Scouting Consensus

[Micklebot]

Numbers are great..I just need anyone to give me an explanation for 07/08 to today...No one has... Everyone skirts the issue. Talks around it, etc. The team has stunk for 14 years. And no one offers an explanation. Until someone can explain, until someone offers a reasonable explanation. I am growing tired of replying.

What are you asking for people to explain exactly? The sens finish in the standings those years? There's going to be a myriad of factors that goes into it:

- Loss of stars without adequate returns (we had Heatley demand a trade, Redden regress and leave, Chara jump ship, Spezza and Alfredsson depart). Lots of top talent out the door without much in the way of a return. Quite the opposite of how Karlsson trade is turning out

- key acquisitions not living up, Ryan comes to mind, we shipped out a lot to bring him in but injuries really crippled him. Brassard for Zibanejad was another acquisition that didn't really live up to the hype, though at least we did have a good run. Duchene did well for himself but no team success and as a result he's gone with more assets going out than we spent to bring him in.

- Budget, many years we were 5 to 10 mil below the cap, that's a big handycap compared to teams spending to the cap

-Coaching, we haven't gone to an experienced coach since Murray became GM. DJ looks promising but it's the equivalent of spending second round picks looking for a #1 center, you eventually might find a Babcock hiring these inexperienced guys but you're likely to swing and miss a lot more often along the way compared to paying the price to get a proven commodity

-injuries. Some bad luck can really alter a players career, Lee had an undiagnosed knee issue that eventually ended his career, by a couple years after being drafted he could weight train his legs. Cowen had a hip issue that required surgery and never looked the same, Spezza back gave out right before we traded him, Karlsson had numerous ankle issues and the list goes on.

All these things come together, along with a number of others to yeild the end results. Trying to argue any single issue can explain a team winning or losing is folly, it's oversimplification and will only result in terrible takes.

 

[Samsquanch]

I hate to say it but our fan base is honestly a wee bit entitled. Imo.

No doubt theres been some prolonged and undeserved suffering that we endured since the 2007 cup run. But I guess Im a glass half-full kind of guy because I honestly think we've also had some of the franchises best and warmest memories created during that same time.

-Karlsson in his peak wining Norris trophies and playing like a top 5 NHLer at his best. Gave us some street cred

-Sneaking into the playoffs a few times as the Pesky Sens

-Beating the Habs in the playoffs

-The line brawl with Habs where we went 5 for 5

-The hamburglar run - I dont think enough folks appreciate that this was close to the most exciting hockey spectacle that a fan base could witness (aside from winning the cup itself). Those 20 games were the stuff of legend, the Penguins game in particular - and they did it. They did the impossible and capped the run off by making the post season. Yet most people dismiss it because we ran out of gas (shocker ffs...). If Chris Cuthbert (no affiliation to the Sens) can call it his most exciting time during his TSN hockey broadcasting days, then so can you! Its ok to be proud!

-The 2017 ECF run, another incredible Cinderella run that most teams can only dream of. Game 7, 2OT against the eventual champs (who steamrolled their way to a cup in 5 after us). We should hold our heads incredibly high after that one. But I swear it seems like more of us would rather treat it like an undeserved fluke (like our critics want us to believe and feel)... And instead were hyper focused more on the 2018 implosion that happed afterwards....

--The joyous feeling that had morphed out of the sorrow from losing Karlsson, and gaining Norris and Stutzle instead, and seeing SJ finish even worse than we did somehow.

-And the warm and fuzzy feeling I get when I love our prospect pool and the young core gives me. This team never gets stuck in an epic cycle of suck and without hope (which enough of us should realize is common enough in the NHL). Yet here we are looking fly as f*** with a huge pile of hope after a few seasons. If things were still in total flux and we didnt have awesome scouts, the mood would obviously be far different and more somber....

I just feel really bad for people who legit have nothing but pain and misery to look back upon over these last 13 years... They are so mentally stressed and fixated on the ultimate prize - the finish line where the crown awaits - that it ends up making the journey getting there (if they ever do) a miserable one as a fan...

Honest question for the fellow long time fans - does the 2000-2006 period of time (ie the Leafs....Lailime...lost season during our peak due to lockout...Hasek at the Olympics.....Lee > Kopitar.....Redden > Chara. ECT, ECT fml....) not haunt your soul like 1000 times worse, and cuts so much more deeply than all of the misery we endured from 2007-present combined????

I seriously know it does for myself....

 

[Ice-Tray]

My good buddy is a leafs fan and we watched all those series together…. It was a dark time.

Last year he had Darcy Tucker send me a Happy Birthday video in which he pokes fun at me, a Sens fan, for those epic battles that he won over my Sens.

It was pretty hilarious nowadays, but it also brought back some pretty frustrating memories.

It’s one of the reasons why I love so much what is being built here. We are building a playoff team, not a Presidents Trophy team, and even if/when we suffer some playoff disappointments, it won’t look as meek and soft as it once did. We’ll actually go down fighting tooth and nail.

Go Sens!

 

[Samsquanch]

My good buddy is a leafs fan and we watched all those series together…. It was a dark time.

Last year he had Darcy Tucker send me a Happy Birthday video in which he pokes fun at me, a Sens fan, for those epic battles that he won over my Sens.

It was pretty hilarious nowadays, but it also brought back some pretty frustrating memories.

It’s one of the reasons why I love so much what is being built here. We are building a playoff team, not a Presidents Trophy team, and even if/when we suffer some playoff disappointments, it won’t look as meek and soft as it once did. We’ll actually go down fighting tooth and nail.

Go Sens!

Same experience except I was surrounded by like 5 leafs fans (and a couple of irrelevant Habs fans) that were my closest buddies.. Bunch of rowdy and cruel sobs (from like age 15-19) that I got to see pretty much all of it with. And ya, it was not very cool, is what ill say...

And I agree with exactly what your saying, its sort of my point. Despite have a team that was a presidents trophy winning offensive powerhouse, and the toast of the league for a good period of time - that period is in fact the most hurtful and disappointing for me as a fan in retrospect...

With great power comes uh... lofty and somewhat unrealistic expectations. Take the modern day Leafs for exhibit A

 

[SensHulk]

Hamburglar run honestly was the most fun I’ve had being a sens fan. That saying something, it was just the most epic unexpected run and it felt like house money at the time. We are damn lucky to have experienced it (and what makes it even more of a shame that the team/ownership didn’t try to capitalize on it)

 

[JD1]

I hate to say it but our fan base is honestly a wee bit entitled. Imo.

No doubt theres been some prolonged and undeserved suffering that we endured since the 2007 cup run. But I guess Im a glass half-full kind of guy because I honestly think we've also had some of the franchises best and warmest memories created during that same time.

-Karlsson in his peak wining Norris trophies and playing like a top 5 NHLer at his best. Gave us some street cred

-Sneaking into the playoffs a few times as the Pesky Sens

-Beating the Habs in the playoffs

-The line brawl with Habs where we went 5 for 5

-The hamburglar run - I dont think enough folks appreciate that this was close to the most exciting hockey spectacle that a fan base could witness (aside from winning the cup itself). Those 20 games were the stuff of legend, the Penguins game in particular - and they did it. They did the impossible and capped the run off by making the post season. Yet most people dismiss it because we ran out of gas (shocker ffs...). If Chris Cuthbert (no affiliation to the Sens) can call it his most exciting time during his TSN hockey broadcasting days, then so can you! Its ok to be proud!

-The 2017 ECF run, another incredible Cinderella run that most teams can only dream of. Game 7, 2OT against the eventual champs (who steamrolled their way to a cup in 5 after us). We should hold our heads incredibly high after that one. But I swear it seems like more of us would rather treat it like an undeserved fluke (like our critics want us to believe and feel)... And instead were hyper focused more on the 2018 implosion that happed afterwards....

--The joyous feeling that had morphed out of the sorrow from losing Karlsson, and gaining Norris and Stutzle instead, and seeing SJ finish even worse than we did somehow.

-And the warm and fuzzy feeling I get when I love our prospect pool and the young core gives me. This team never gets stuck in an epic cycle of suck and without hope (which enough of us should realize is common enough in the NHL). Yet here we are looking fly as f*** with a huge pile of hope after a few seasons. If things were still in total flux and we didnt have awesome scouts, the mood would obviously be far different and more somber....

I just feel really bad for people who legit have nothing but pain and misery to look back upon over these last 13 years... They are so mentally stressed and fixated on the ultimate prize - the finish line where the crown awaits - that it ends up making the journey getting there (if they ever do) a miserable one as a fan...

Honest question for the fellow long time fans - does the 2000-2006 period of time (ie the Leafs....Lailime...lost season during our peak due to lockout...Hasek at the Olympics.....Lee > Kopitar.....Redden > Chara. ECT, ECT fml....) not haunt your soul like 1000 times worse, and cuts so much more deeply than all of the misery we endured from 2007-present combined????

I seriously know it does for myself....

Entitled. Hmmm. That's an interesting way of putting it.

In my view we had a 20 year run of high expectations. I remember vividly first making the playoffs. I remember Brodeur saying the better team lost. The 4 losses to the leafs. The cup appearance. The line brawl, a game I was at. The Pageau hat trick, another game I was at. Scoring 4 in the first against the penguins, another game I was at. The hamburglar run, started in part by Zibanejad dominating a California trip. 1997 to 2017 was an incredible stretch in a 30 team league.

I'm not in any way jaded by the tear down. I watched Karlsson post ECF run, was up front about not re-signing him and thought the return was better than most. Karlsson was a terrific player. The best O dman I've seen all the way back to Orr. But like Orr, the fall came quickly. Side note...I'd rather remember him for what he was than what the last 6 years of that contract might become

We had a remarkable 20 year stretch and I am super excited about where we currently are. FYOUS is a big joke here (deservedly given Eugene's foot in mouth disease) but i think we are currently set up better than any Canadian franchise and i think the coming years are going to be pretty bright

 

[Samsquanch]

Entitled. Hmmm. That's an interesting way of putting it.

Honestly I don't know how else to put it without getting more rude and blunt...

I would say close to half of our fan base, maybe even more, genuinely seem to share these same sentiments below (a post from earlier in this thread);

Numbers are great..I just need anyone to give me an explanation for 07/08 to today...No one has... Everyone skirts the issue. Talks around it, etc. The team has stunk for 14 years. And no one offers an explanation. Until someone can explain, until someone offers a reasonable explanation. I am growing tired of replying.

That comes across as some major-league whining, imo. And its honestly sad - not even trying to be coy or condescending towards those people either. I legit feel bad for the torture these guys put themselves through by cheering for this team. It doesnt have to be that way...

As I said in my previous post, if you've set the bar for happiness at "winning the cup", then prepare for misery and lots of it...

The rest of us will take the small wins where we can get them, and hope for the best from there.

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

Honestly I don't know how else to put it without getting more rude and blunt...

I would say close to half of our fan base, maybe even more, genuinely seem to share these same sentiments below (a post from earlier in this thread);



That comes across as some major league whining, imo. And its honestly sad - not even trying to be coy or condescending towards those people either. I legit feel bad for the torture these guys put themselves through by cheering for this team. It doesnt have to be that way...

As I said in my previous post, if you've set the bar for happiness at "winning the cup", then prepare for misery and lots of it...

The rest of us will take the small wins where we can get them, and hope for the best from there.

For the small market team that we are, and with an owner that is not willing to spend like the leafs, we are very lucky to have had such an awesome last 20 years. Even last year was a success, with Timmy and crew.

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

Fun fact: based on Wheeler's draft-day ratings, and without the benefit of hindsight, the best value pick we've made in his opinion was Johnny Tychonick - who he had rated 17th and who we selected at 48th.

 

[Deku]

Fun fact: based on Wheeler's draft-day ratings, and without the benefit of hindsight, the best value pick we've made in his opinion was Johnny Tychonick - who he had rated 17th and who we selected at 48th.

 

[Xspyrit]

Fun fact: based on Wheeler's draft-day ratings, and without the benefit of hindsight, the best value pick we've made in his opinion was Johnny Tychonick - who he had rated 17th and who we selected at 48th.

In reality, it's probably our worst pick in a while

What was the period concerned?

 

[Samsquanch]

Fun fact: based on Wheeler's draft-day ratings, and without the benefit of hindsight, the best value pick we've made in his opinion was Johnny Tychonick - who he had rated 17th and who we selected at 48th.

He just recently had Jake Sanderson ranked at like #30 on his top prospects list...like behind Arthur Kaliyev...

Hes the lamest prospect writer (hes really not even a scout ffs) out there by far. His evaluation process is so painfully transparent - but it also goes hand in hand with the general though process of a typical HBoards person, so he doesnt get much critisism on his work.

Scott Wheeler likes offensively talented junior players. Period lol. Not saying that he doesnt value or recognize other traits, but scoring points is what makes up 90% of his player evaluation.

And he strikes out a ridiculous amount of times for every "hidden" player that he hits on (someone ranked higher on his list than where they were drafted).

This is not ever a hidden gem that he used a keen scouts eye to identify by himself......This is almost always a player that everyone clearly knew all about due to their offensive skills, and they were probably ranked higher at the start of their draft season. But they were eventually passed over by many teams - sometimes multiple times - due to character and/or compete concerns (or something to that effect).

Yeah, that guy you can guarantee will be ranked high up on Scott Wheelers prospects list. Its a basic and "safe" opinion for him that he will never have to really justify. Character is like an urban legend or myth that he doesnt need to concern himself with in the interweb world. And he has no idea what it means to waste a 1st on a player with massive bust potential (and only a small chance of booming).

He is honestly so vanilla and lazy in his approach to ranking prospects, and this is the last time I will probably ever mention him again tbh..

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

In reality, it's probably our worst pick in a while

What was the period concerned?

Since 2017. And yeah, Tychonick has 1 more year to prove himself but unless he really steps up it seems unlikely he gets an NHL contract.

Not to say it was wrong to be intrigued by him in his draft year... he was an intriguing prospect and a worthwhile swing at 48.

@Samsquanch spot on with your response. The Sanderson ranking really blows me away. I have been high on him since before we selected him but for a self-proclaimed prospect guy to fail to grasp the hype, well, it's pretty baffling to me. Maybe I'm wrong but I see a can't-miss impact player.

 

[Masked]

Honestly I don't know how else to put it without getting more rude and blunt...

I would say close to half of our fan base, maybe even more, genuinely seem to share these same sentiments below (a post from earlier in this thread);



That comes across as some major-league whining, imo. And its honestly sad - not even trying to be coy or condescending towards those people either. I legit feel bad for the torture these guys put themselves through by cheering for this team. It doesnt have to be that way...

As I said in my previous post, if you've set the bar for happiness at "winning the cup", then prepare for misery and lots of it...

The rest of us will take the small wins where we can get them, and hope for the best from there.

The team hasn't stunk. It's been mediocre. Which is something to be expected in a league that's trying to create parity. Outside of 2011 and the past four years the team has not been bad. I don't think the team will stink this upcoming season either. It'll probably be a mediocre season at worst.

Assen na yo!

 

[Beech]

What are you asking for people to explain exactly? The sens finish in the standings those years? There's going to be a myriad of factors that goes into it:
----------

ll these things come together, along with a number of others to yield the end results. Trying to argue any single issue can explain a team winning or losing is folly, it's oversimplification and will only result in terrible takes.

1) at 32 teams, a cup win, may be 50 to 100 years away. Fans are smart enough to understand this.
2) at 32 teams, a Cup final appearance may be 25-50 years away. Fans are smart enough to understand this.

3) at 32 teams, an appearance in the Stanley cup playoffs. Given that 16 teams get in, should mathematically be once every 2 years. Accounting for good periods, bad periods. It should mean 5 years in, 5 years out in any 10 year period and not necessary inline.
4) at 32 teams, 16 teams in, 15 series a year. A team should expect ~ 6-7 series wins in the 5 years that they are in in any 10 year period.
5) at 32 teams, a team should be expected to exist in the top 1/3, middle 1/3 and bottom 1/3 for about 5 years in a 15 year period.

#1 and #2 are easy for teams to defend. They do not have to do much. Fans who complain, can either be dismissed or reasoned with. Any fan who wants more, is unreasonable.

#3, 4 and 5. They are the hot ones. They are reasonable and fans are justified in expecting them. Fans cling to the belief that their team is working hard to achieve them...."Clinging to the Belief that their team is working hard to achieve them..." If that belief fails, it is over. If the myth that the Sens or any other NHL team is good at drafting, fails..you are finished.

The myth is the foundation upon which fan build their support. The belief that the team can fix things. That it can draft to success. That it can get rid of bad players and get picks that they can then turn into good players...That is the foundation. That if you fall to the bottom, you can then use the high picks to rebuild...Once that myth dies, fans will turn away. If fans begin to doubt that a team is good at drafting, you are finished.

So why watch, why attend, why pay attention, especially if you doubt their ability to draft and thus fix problems? Go around the city and talk to people...many believe that the team will draft their way to success. It is what keeps interest...The belief in a miracle cure.

The great Ottawa myth. We needed to stop believing 15 years ago. A more realistic view is: a middle of the road drafting team..at best. That they are susceptible to dry spells that are alarming. And jettisoning mistakes or quality players for picks with this belief that you can draft to success is a myth. One that crashed around us in 2017 and one that showed tremendous problems 07-16.

As fans we need to be way more skeptical and way more scrutinizing. Be less susceptible to the BS that we get shoved at us. Some analytics guy shows that the Sens have drafted better than Tampa and we are okay???????? we don't ask their last 12 years to ours. If the Catholic church still had this much faith, churches would not be empty and get converted into concert halls.

 

[Ice-Tray]

1) at 32 teams, a cup win, may be 50 to 100 years away. Fans are smart enough to understand this.
2) at 32 teams, a Cup final appearance may be 25-50 years away. Fans are smart enough to understand this.

3) at 32 teams, an appearance in the Stanley cup playoffs. Given that 16 teams get in, should mathematically be once every 2 years. Accounting for good periods, bad periods. It should mean 5 years in, 5 years out in any 10 year period and not necessary inline.
4) at 32 teams, 16 teams in, 15 series a year. A team should expect ~ 6-7 series wins in the 5 years that they are in in any 10 year period.
5) at 32 teams, a team should be expected to exist in the top 1/3, middle 1/3 and bottom 1/3 for about 5 years in a 15 year period.

#1 and #2 are easy for teams to defend. They do not have to do much. Fans who complain, can either be dismissed or reasoned with. Any fan who wants more, is unreasonable.

#3, 4 and 5. They are the hot ones. They are reasonable and fans are justified in expecting them. Fans cling to the belief that their team is working hard to achieve them...."Clinging to the Belief that their team is working hard to achieve them..." If that belief fails, it is over. If the myth that the Sens or any other NHL team is good at drafting, fails..you are finished.

The myth is the foundation upon which fan build their support. The belief that the team can fix things. That it can draft to success. That it can get rid of bad players and get picks that they can then turn into good players...That is the foundation. That if you fall to the bottom, you can then use the high picks to rebuild...Once that myth dies, fans will turn away. If fans begin to doubt that a team is good at drafting, you are finished.

So why watch, why attend, why pay attention, especially if you doubt their ability to draft and thus fix problems? Go around the city and talk to people...many believe that the team will draft their way to success. It is what keeps interest...The belief in a miracle cure.

The great Ottawa myth. We needed to stop believing 15 years ago. A more realistic view is: a middle of the road drafting team..at best. That they are susceptible to dry spells that are alarming. And jettisoning mistakes or quality players for picks with this belief that you can draft to success is a myth. One that crashed around us in 2017 and one that showed tremendous problems 07-16.

As fans we need to be way more skeptical and way more scrutinizing. Be less susceptible to the BS that we get shoved at us. Some analytics guy shows that the Sens have drafted better than Tampa and we are okay???????? we don't ask their last 12 years to ours. If the Catholic church still had this much faith, churches would not be empty and get converted into concert halls.

LOL! It’s sports entertainment man, you need to scrutinize less and learn to relax or change the channel. It doesn’t have to own you like it seems to.

Sound like you need to go cheer for TBay or Pitt, I’m not sure you’re cut out to enjoy the ups and downs of being a fan of a single team.

The Ottawa Senators have been this country’s best team overall culminating over the course of a few decades now, and have always been icing a good to decent product on the ice from the first build, to this most recent tear down and rebuild (the melt down season was a true exception, which we acted on and burned it all down).

If you don’t like our past, and you can’t understand why other fans have had epic memories based on the play of some of our past teams, it really seems like it would be best if you just crunched whatever numbers you like to pick, and go be a fan of the team that fits your super weird criteria (spoiler, few will).

Your posts on this subject are truly baffling given what we have seen from this organization on the ice over the last 20 years.

 

[Golden_Jet]

1) at 32 teams, a cup win, may be 50 to 100 years away. Fans are smart enough to understand this.
2) at 32 teams, a Cup final appearance may be 25-50 years away. Fans are smart enough to understand this.

3) at 32 teams, an appearance in the Stanley cup playoffs. Given that 16 teams get in, should mathematically be once every 2 years. Accounting for good periods, bad periods. It should mean 5 years in, 5 years out in any 10 year period and not necessary inline.
4) at 32 teams, 16 teams in, 15 series a year. A team should expect ~ 6-7 series wins in the 5 years that they are in in any 10 year period.
5) at 32 teams, a team should be expected to exist in the top 1/3, middle 1/3 and bottom 1/3 for about 5 years in a 15 year period.

#1 and #2 are easy for teams to defend. They do not have to do much. Fans who complain, can either be dismissed or reasoned with. Any fan who wants more, is unreasonable.

#3, 4 and 5. They are the hot ones. They are reasonable and fans are justified in expecting them. Fans cling to the belief that their team is working hard to achieve them...."Clinging to the Belief that their team is working hard to achieve them..." If that belief fails, it is over. If the myth that the Sens or any other NHL team is good at drafting, fails..you are finished.

The myth is the foundation upon which fan build their support. The belief that the team can fix things. That it can draft to success. That it can get rid of bad players and get picks that they can then turn into good players...That is the foundation. That if you fall to the bottom, you can then use the high picks to rebuild...Once that myth dies, fans will turn away. If fans begin to doubt that a team is good at drafting, you are finished.

So why watch, why attend, why pay attention, especially if you doubt their ability to draft and thus fix problems? Go around the city and talk to people...many believe that the team will draft their way to success. It is what keeps interest...The belief in a miracle cure.

The great Ottawa myth. We needed to stop believing 15 years ago. A more realistic view is: a middle of the road drafting team..at best. That they are susceptible to dry spells that are alarming. And jettisoning mistakes or quality players for picks with this belief that you can draft to success is a myth. One that crashed around us in 2017 and one that showed tremendous problems 07-16.

As fans we need to be way more skeptical and way more scrutinizing. Be less susceptible to the BS that we get shoved at us. Some analytics guy shows that the Sens have drafted better than Tampa and we are okay???????? we don't ask their last 12 years to ours. If the Catholic church still had this much faith, churches would not be empty and get converted into concert halls.

Point 4) Math is off.
Team gets in once every 2 years, so can expect a win every 4 years,
So a second round win is every 8 years.
Etc, ....that’s assuming all teams have equal chance, each year going in. ( which they don’t)

 

[Samsquanch]

As fans we need to be way more skeptical and way more scrutinizing. Be less susceptible to the BS that we get shoved at us. Some analytics guy shows that the Sens have drafted better than Tampa and we are okay???????? we don't ask their last 12 years to ours. If the Catholic church still had this much faith, churches would not be empty and get converted into concert halls.

JFC.... Yikes man

Thats exactly what this place needs you guys. More cynicism, and waaaaaay more outrage... If you havent hammer fingered at least 2 keyboards into an early grave while you were in a blind rage over the Sens - then your doing it all wrong my dudes.....

 

[JaredCowen4Norris]

So why watch, why attend, why pay attention, especially if you doubt their ability to draft and thus fix problems? Go around the city and talk to people...many believe that the team will draft their way to success. It is what keeps interest...The belief in a miracle cure.

The great Ottawa myth. We needed to stop believing 15 years ago. A more realistic view is: a middle of the road drafting team..at best. That they are susceptible to dry spells that are alarming. And jettisoning mistakes or quality players for picks with this belief that you can draft to success is a myth. One that crashed around us in 2017 and one that showed tremendous problems 07-16.

While it's not a perfect method for measuring draft success, I found this post interesting on the main board. One thing that stood out is that Ottawa has been really good at drafting (and to a certain extent developing) NHL players, but that's skewed by some great drafting in the 2008-11 seasons. Their drafting from 2012-2016 was pretty middling to borderline bad. I'd say it's a little early to make the call on anything from 2017 onwards, but there seems to be improvement. Being a budget team means that we need our drafting to be on point because you most likely won't be shelling out cash for high profile FAs or making big game acquisitions. Part of the reason the teams cup contention window in the Karlsson era slammed shut is because of our terrible drafting during the teams peak. If we had a few more prospects pan out, we would have had a really solid core group with rookies on ELCs sprinkled in but that didn't happen.

I think all of the focus on the Sens drafting recently has just become tiresome. Both sides of the argument just end up making an ass of themselves. The people who don't like our drafting because of the lack of drafting potential high skill players seem to have a misunderstanding of what you need to build a successful team (not to beat the dead horse but looking at guys like Wheeler). It's quite possible that when we look back on the 2020 draft a guy like Sanderson may have been picked before some high-end talent, but the Sens felt like he was the piece that their pool needed so they took him. Drafting BPA is rarely done, outside of teams like the Hurricanes/Kings who seem to be taking an approach that's more in line with the online hockey community.

At the same time, the other side claiming the Sens drafting has been great are either referencing the past 2-3 drafts (which are way too early to call) or they're going off the "Ottawa is good at drafting" reputation from the late 00's early 10's. I feel like we're taking victory laps on prospects that have yet to even play a full season which is just wild. I like our prospect pool and think it's solid, but the amount of over confidence is crazy. I have a positive outlook on where this team is headed, but yeah I will definitely be skeptical when we take a guy like Roger or Kleven in the second round after being told that guys like Englund and Harpur were big bodies that were going to make our D hard to play against.

Anyone in this thread saying that people need to be more grateful for all the amazing things this team has experienced in the past 10-15 year are in the wrong place. This is a thread meant to discuss our drafting, not telling people to be happy that our team has made some great memories over the past few years. I find it weird that the conversation devolves into this (or the classic "go be a fan of another team") when others critique what the team is doing. This is a forum meant for discussion which is not always going to be sunshine and rainbows. Either get a thicker skin or go to a thread that is on a more positive topic.

 

[Golden_Jet]

While it's not a perfect method for measuring draft success, I found this post interesting on the main board. One thing that stood out is that Ottawa has been really good at drafting (and to a certain extent developing) NHL players, but that's skewed by some great drafting in the 2008-11 seasons. Their drafting from 2012-2016 was pretty middling to borderline bad. I'd say it's a little early to make the call on anything from 2017 onwards, but there seems to be improvement. Being a budget team means that we need our drafting to be on point because you most likely won't be shelling out cash for high profile FAs or making big game acquisitions. Part of the reason the teams cup contention window in the Karlsson era slammed shut is because of our terrible drafting during the teams peak. If we had a few more prospects pan out, we would have had a really solid core group with rookies on ELCs sprinkled in but that didn't happen.

I think all of the focus on the Sens drafting recently has just become tiresome. Both sides of the argument just end up making an ass of themselves. The people who don't like our drafting because of the lack of drafting potential high skill players seem to have a misunderstanding of what you need to build a successful team (not to beat the dead horse but looking at guys like Wheeler). It's quite possible that when we look back on the 2020 draft a guy like Sanderson may have been picked before some high-end talent, but the Sens felt like he was the piece that their pool needed so they took him. Drafting BPA is rarely done, outside of teams like the Hurricanes/Kings who seem to be taking an approach that's more in line with the online hockey community.

At the same time, the other side claiming the Sens drafting has been great are either referencing the past 2-3 drafts (which are way too early to call) or they're going off the "Ottawa is good at drafting" reputation from the late 00's early 10's. I feel like we're taking victory laps on prospects that have yet to even play a full season which is just wild. I like our prospect pool and think it's solid, but the amount of over confidence is crazy. I have a positive outlook on where this team is headed, but yeah I will definitely be skeptical when we take a guy like Roger or Kleven in the second round after being told that guys like Englund and Harpur were big bodies that were going to make our D hard to play against.

Anyone in this thread saying that people need to be more grateful for all the amazing things this team has experienced in the past 10-15 year are in the wrong place. This is a thread meant to discuss our drafting, not telling people to be happy that our team has made some great memories over the past few years. I find it weird that the conversation devolves into this (or the classic "go be a fan of another team") when others critique what the team is doing. This is a forum meant for discussion which is not always going to be sunshine and rainbows. Either get a thicker skin or go to a thread that is on a more positive topic.

So Ottawa ranked second on the 12 year span chart 08-19

 

[Ice-Tray]

While it's not a perfect method for measuring draft success, I found this post interesting on the main board. One thing that stood out is that Ottawa has been really good at drafting (and to a certain extent developing) NHL players, but that's skewed by some great drafting in the 2008-11 seasons. Their drafting from 2012-2016 was pretty middling to borderline bad. I'd say it's a little early to make the call on anything from 2017 onwards, but there seems to be improvement. Being a budget team means that we need our drafting to be on point because you most likely won't be shelling out cash for high profile FAs or making big game acquisitions. Part of the reason the teams cup contention window in the Karlsson era slammed shut is because of our terrible drafting during the teams peak. If we had a few more prospects pan out, we would have had a really solid core group with rookies on ELCs sprinkled in but that didn't happen.

I think all of the focus on the Sens drafting recently has just become tiresome. Both sides of the argument just end up making an ass of themselves. The people who don't like our drafting because of the lack of drafting potential high skill players seem to have a misunderstanding of what you need to build a successful team (not to beat the dead horse but looking at guys like Wheeler). It's quite possible that when we look back on the 2020 draft a guy like Sanderson may have been picked before some high-end talent, but the Sens felt like he was the piece that their pool needed so they took him. Drafting BPA is rarely done, outside of teams like the Hurricanes/Kings who seem to be taking an approach that's more in line with the online hockey community.

At the same time, the other side claiming the Sens drafting has been great are either referencing the past 2-3 drafts (which are way too early to call) or they're going off the "Ottawa is good at drafting" reputation from the late 00's early 10's. I feel like we're taking victory laps on prospects that have yet to even play a full season which is just wild. I like our prospect pool and think it's solid, but the amount of over confidence is crazy. I have a positive outlook on where this team is headed, but yeah I will definitely be skeptical when we take a guy like Roger or Kleven in the second round after being told that guys like Englund and Harpur were big bodies that were going to make our D hard to play against.

Anyone in this thread saying that people need to be more grateful for all the amazing things this team has experienced in the past 10-15 year are in the wrong place. This is a thread meant to discuss our drafting, not telling people to be happy that our team has made some great memories over the past few years. I find it weird that the conversation devolves into this (or the classic "go be a fan of another team") when others critique what the team is doing. This is a forum meant for discussion which is not always going to be sunshine and rainbows. Either get a thicker skin or go to a thread that is on a more positive topic.

And yet here you are doing the same thing.

The conversation evolved quite naturally to its current state. I’m not at all against a reset of the discussion, but your post is the one that doesn’t fit the current stream of debate.

If a person incorporates questioning how we can be happy about our teams performance over the last 20 years, it stands to reason that responses can in turn question the emotions of said poster.

Perhaps in the future you can simply skip over conversations that you don’t like, instead of telling a bunch of people what they can and can’t post. I mean you self describe as being tired of both sides of the debate, and give the be all end all solution that we’re smack dab impaled on the fence… Bold!

I have been told this many times over the years, even recently been reminded to scroll on by beaten horses, this is a rescission board after all, so consider this me paying it forward

 

[JaredCowen4Norris]

So Ottawa ranked second on the 12 year span chart 08-19

If we're talking consistency then you have to look at this info broken down. If you look at the full 12 year span we're on average #2 but that doesn't mean we've consistently drafted well based on the 4 year break downs. We had some really strong drafts 2008-11 before having some very poor drafting years in the mid 2010s. The most recent drafts have been better (not top-10 but it's also a little early to consider the 2018/2019 drafts fully developed), but it's not like we've been consistently a top team when it comes to drafting. We had some very good years and the trickle of prospects that came from those drafts skews the perception, which is what the original poster was touching on.

 

[supsens]

If we're talking consistency then you have to look at this info broken down. If you look at the full 12 year span we're on average #2 but that doesn't mean we've consistently drafted well based on the 4 year break downs. We had some really strong drafts 2008-11 before having some very poor drafting years in the mid 2010s. The most recent drafts have been better (not top-10 but it's also a little early to consider the 2018/2019 drafts fully developed), but it's not like we've been consistently a top team when it comes to drafting. We had some very good years and the trickle of prospects that came from those drafts skews the perception, which is what the original poster was touching on.

It's like scoring goals, you can't remove all the good games when goals are scored and say the results are bad if you ignore all the goals.

 

[Ice-Tray]

No team has a great draft every year, and none of the info means much when compared to personal expectation, and neither do personal expectations.

The only value is when comparing to all of the other teams draft success around the league, and then of course handicapping for draft position.

We are a good drafting team, we don’t have to hit on every pick to be a good drafting team. We may not seem like a good draft team to fans who wish that we were a better draft team. But when you compare our drafting to other teams, we are undeniably a good drafting team.

The example floated about some misses at a draft seem a bit silly when evaluating the team drafting as a whole over 20 years. I mean we have no problem calling a player a star, even if they have had a few sub par seasons over 20 years in the league.

 

[Golden_Jet]

If we're talking consistency then you have to look at this info broken down. If you look at the full 12 year span we're on average #2 but that doesn't mean we've consistently drafted well based on the 4 year break downs. We had some really strong drafts 2008-11 before having some very poor drafting years in the mid 2010s. The most recent drafts have been better (not top-10 but it's also a little early to consider the 2018/2019 drafts fully developed), but it's not like we've been consistently a top team when it comes to drafting. We had some very good years and the trickle of prospects that came from those drafts skews the perception, which is what the original poster was touching on.

Ups and downs, like all teams, except we have the least downs to place second.
Previous post comes across as you only want negative Nancy’s to post lol.