Salary Cap: Salary Cap Summer | Coming to a close

[Jenkins]

Archibald is nothing though, why would another team claim him? He'll at best be a 4th line energy guy. I mean, they might if they feel like they need more speed, but I wouldn't really be concerned that Archibald would get claimed on waivers.

You probably would have said the same thing about Rust 2 years ago though.

 

[Empoleon8771]

It would definitely surprise me. JR said he wants him and ZAR to go the Guentzel route. We all saw how good Jake was in the preseason last year so it would take an absurdly good pre season for Sprong to make the team and force someone else out of the organization.

Didn't Guentzel not get any sort of production in the preseason though? Sprong also has the advantage of having NHL experience over Guentzel last year.

There is no downside to giving him 3 months in the A but losing a valuable depth guy on waivers or something just to start Sprong in the NHL doesn't make sense to me.

I can't imagine Sprong would have any impact on losing a valuable depth guy to waivers. If Sprong stays up, it likely means that one of Kuhnhackl or Wilson would be traded. I'd bet Wilson would be traded in a package for a 3C if Sprong would be staying up.

 

[Coastal Kev]

It's asking an awful lot of Sprong to make the jump from the CHL to the NHL. We are pretty deep at wing, if he was a center or dman then maybe. I would just be surprised if he made the team from the start of the season unless there are some injuries to wingers. They already wasted one year of his contract 2 years ago.

We saw him for 18 game 2 years ago and he hardly looked out of place. Based on your statement did he regress the last 2 years?

 

[Big McLargehuge]

Archibald is nothing though, why would another team claim him? He'll at best be a 4th line energy guy. I mean, they might if they feel like they need more speed, but I wouldn't really be concerned that Archibald would get claimed on waivers.

If Archibald weren't getting his name on a Cup I wouldn't think for a second anyone would claim him with how jammed the waiver wire is at the start of the season and how basically every team has a player of his ilk.

But we did win a Cup, which makes our spare parts slightly more appealing to teams looking for something, anything...I could easily see a Colorado-type putting a claim in.

Either way our 14th/15th forward pieces don't have a lick of trade value right now, and that's true basically across the board in this league. I'd rather wait and see how healthy we can make it through camp than pre-emptively trading NHL caliber players for 5th round picks.

We saw him for 18 game 2 years ago and he hardly looked out of place. Based on your statement did he regress the last 2 years?

The Pens being significantly better now than when Sprong made that roster comes into play.

I'm all for giving Sprong the Guentzel treatment this year. We don't need him out of the gate and there's still stuff he can learn in the minors. Once it becomes clear he's too good for the AHL then you find the room for him, and if all goes to plan he may force his hand even more quickly than Guentzel did.

 

[Shady Machine]

Didn't Guentzel not get any sort of production in the preseason though? Sprong also has the advantage of having NHL experience over Guentzel last year.



I can't imagine Sprong would have any impact on losing a valuable depth guy to waivers. If Sprong stays up, it likely means that one of Kuhnhackl or Wilson would be traded. I'd bet Wilson would be traded in a package for a 3C if Sprong would be staying up.

I'm just telling you what the GM of the hockey team said. If you want to trust Mackey over JR and common sense, go right ahead.

There really isn't a ton of upside to playing Sprong in the NHL to start the year. They just won two cups and have plenty of depth on the wings. Sprong has a lot to learn at the pro level and is likely better served learning the ropes in the AHL. Playing 15 games or whatever under a different coaching staff 2 years ago doesn't mean he's more likely to make the team out of camp than Jake was last year. It's nothing against Sprong, but it's a numbers game and he is best served in the long run to get some pro action in Wilkes first.

 

[Shady Machine]

We saw him for 18 game 2 years ago and he hardly looked out of place. Based on your statement did he regress the last 2 years?

That was a different coaching staff with a totally different system and expectations. Plus, neither coach really wanted to play him in the NHL, but JR seemed interested in changing the culture by giving a young kid a chance. The team is in a far different place now than 2 years ago. There is no need to rush his development or put him in the NHL and push another guy out. Injuries will happen and Sprong will get plenty of NHL action this year if he produces like we know he can in the A.

 

[Riptide]

I wanted to see if the bolded is accurate, but then noticed stats.hockeyanalysis.com is no longer up and running. WTF? What website lists that stuff now?

It is. I've looked it up before and he had significant minutes at ES with Benn the past couple of seasons (400+). Not sure about Seguin. It's possible, but it was the TOI with JB that stood out to me.

That said, I still think he'd be fine with a skilled winger or two on his line, and provide what we're looking for.

 

[Pens x]

We saw him for 18 game 2 years ago and he hardly looked out of place. Based on your statement did he regress the last 2 years?

I have no idea about his progression. How many of you have watched him in the CHL over the last 3 years? So many fans here praise the guy, I just hope they've seen him play and not just basing their conclusions off nothing. I think people are praising him and aren't actually watching him play which is just odd.

I can admit that I have no idea how he will do in the NHL. I just don't see a need to rush him.

 

[Riptide]

Speaking of Letang, I haven't heard an update in a long time. I can't believe DegenX is going to have to get an injury thread going in about a month. Crazy how fast it goes when you win a Cup.

Aside from the joy of seeing the team win... just think of how spoiled we've been thr last two off seasons. Raise the Cup on June 12th and 11th, and then the draft and all that over the next 3 weeks. Other teams seasons finish in April and have to wait 2-3 months for stuff to pick up.

 

[Riptide]

I wouldn't be. Sprong is one of the best 12 forwards in the organization, it wouldn't surprise me at all for him to start in the NHL (just like it wouldn't surprise me if he didn't).

But is he good enough on opening night to make it worth waiving Archie,kuhnhackl and whomever? Talent wise sure. But once contracts come into play, unless he blows people away, I see him getting sent down.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I wouldn't be. Sprong is one of the best 12 forwards in the organization, it wouldn't surprise me at all for him to start in the NHL (just like it wouldn't surprise me if he didn't).

He'd have to blow people's doors off with the depth we have, IMO.

Like Shady said, it's not worth losing a good depth player since Sprong - while clearly having the talent - could still benefit from acclimating to the pro game in the minors and working on his play without the puck. We have the luxury of letting him do that now in a way we didn't a couple years back.

I mean, if he's sniping left and right you make room for him, but he has to show he's clearly a tier above his competition in camp.

I can't imagine Sprong would have any impact on losing a valuable depth guy to waivers. If Sprong stays up, it likely means that one of Kuhnhackl or Wilson would be traded. I'd bet Wilson would be traded in a package for a 3C if Sprong would be staying up.

Guentzel - Crosby - Sheary
Rust - Malkin - Kessel
Hagelin - 3C - Hornqvist
Kuhnhackl - Rowney - Reaves
Archibald

Even if Wilson's traded for a 3C, we'll still have 13 roster forwards even before adding Sprong...and all of them are solid roster players. We really are spoiled for choice right now.

 

[CertifiedLurker]

Yea... no. Worst defensive group of forwards you could put together. Sprong and Kessel absolutely need to be separated.

Nah, I think I'll reserve judgement on that until you know, maybe they've stepped on the ice together at the same time. Also they have almost all of their deployments in the offensive zone. That's exactly where I'd want Sprong. The damage they could do would probably overshadow whatever defensive short comings they have. Only a sith deals in absolutes. The lines wouldn't be locked in forever, if it doesn't work they could change it, I see no reason for this to not be experimented with and frankly I see it being likely.

 

[Empoleon8771]

You probably would have said the same thing about Rust 2 years ago though.

Rust has a lot better AHL production and wasn't a 24 year old waiver eligible depth forward 2 years ago. That comparison fails because Archibald is like a lite beer and older (as compared to where Rust was 2 years ago) version of Rust.

If Archibald weren't getting his name on a Cup I wouldn't think for a second anyone would claim him with how jammed the waiver wire is at the start of the season and how basically every team has a player of his ilk.

But we did win a Cup, which makes our spare parts slightly more appealing to teams looking for something, anything...I could easily see a Colorado-type putting a claim in.

Either way our 14th/15th forward pieces don't have a lick of trade value right now, and that's true basically across the board in this league. I'd rather wait and see how healthy we can make it through camp than pre-emptively trading NHL caliber players for 5th round picks.

I find this to be a fair stance to take. I still don't think Archibald would get claimed though because he's just not that good. I've seen better players pass through waivers and I don't think playing in only 3 playoff games on the cup winning team would sway that many teams to take him. I think Kuhnhackl would be a lot more likely to be claimed, which makes sense because he's a quality 4th liner that actually did something to win a cup.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

He'd have to blow people's doors off with the depth we have, IMO.

Like Shady said, it's not worth losing a good depth player since Sprong - while clearly having the talent - could still benefit from acclimating to the pro game in the minors and working on his play without the puck. We have the luxury of letting him do that now in a way we didn't a couple years back.

I mean, if he's sniping left and right you make room for him, but he has to show he's clearly a tier above his competition in camp.



Guentzel - Crosby - Sheary
Rust - Malkin - Kessel
Hagelin - 3C - Hornqvist
Kuhnhackl - Rowney - Reaves
Archibald

Even if Wilson's traded for a 3C, we'll still have 13 roster forwards even before adding Sprong...and all of them are solid roster players. We really are spoiled for choice right now.

Yeah, pending a trade, that's how it will go down. Then JR will look for deals during the season and make room for Sprong that way. We need some depth like Archi, Kuhn and Rowney for the slog regular season.

And yes, we're pretty spoiled. Any of those players would be claimed. Heck, Shero would take any/all of them.

 

[Empoleon8771]

He'd have to blow people's doors off with the depth we have, IMO.

Like Shady said, it's not worth losing a good depth player since Sprong - while clearly having the talent - could still benefit from acclimating to the pro game in the minors and working on his play without the puck. We have the luxury of letting him do that now in a way we didn't a couple years back.

I mean, if he's sniping left and right you make room for him, but he has to show he's clearly a tier above his competition in camp.



Guentzel - Crosby - Sheary
Rust - Malkin - Kessel
Hagelin - 3C - Hornqvist
Kuhnhackl - Rowney - Reaves
Archibald

Even if Wilson's traded for a 3C, we'll still have 13 roster forwards even before adding Sprong...and all of them are solid roster players. We really are spoiled for choice right now.

The issues I have with that lineup are:

A. That 3rd line is laughably unskilled.
B. That 4th line is laughably bad.

Is that justification enough to keep Sprong up? That is, does making the 3rd line insanely more skilled plus beefing up the 4th line worth potentially losing Archibald to waivers? I'd honestly say yes, but that's because I don't think Archibald would get claimed off waivers. I don't think the risk of losing a quality depth player is high enough or significant enough for me to not keep Sprong up if he's ready.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

Guentzel - Crosby - Sheary
Rust - Malkin - Kessel
Hagelin - Simon - Hornqvist
Kuhnhackl - Rowney - Reaves
Archibald

?

 

[Peat]

We'd be appalled at giving up a center for a winger of similar quality 1-for-1 when the center costs 3x as much? Well I wouldn't, but I'm not as concerned about the center situation as some here. There are plenty of Lindberg-calibre centers to go around...Vegas themselves have a ton.

I reckon so, yes. You say there's plenty of Lindberg-calibre centers around - there's even more Wilson-calibre wings.

And who cares if its 3x as much when the difference is only 1.1m or so (other than you of course ). The increased scarcity value you get for being a centre is far more important to a trade. Its not like Wilson's bargain status is a long term thing either.


edit: p.s. On the Sprong being on the team thing... I think everyone agrees that, given Rutherford's statement, he's in WBS unless he blows the doors off in pre-season.

He is capable of blowing the doors off in pre-season.

If Mackey put the odds of him doing so at 70%... well, that's bullish, but I like it. Seem to recall Mackey's expecting a wing to get traded for a centre too, which helps the odds.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

I reckon so, yes. You say there's plenty of Lindberg-calibre centers around - there's even more Wilson-calibre wings.

Well, there's twice as many job openings for them.

 

[Jenkins]

Rust has a lot better AHL production and wasn't a 24 year old waiver eligible depth forward 2 years ago. That comparison fails because Archibald is like a lite beer and older (as compared to where Rust was 2 years ago) version of Rust.

Rust back then was a year younger (than Archie now)and averaged over a season would have put up 10 more points in a season in the AHL. Not a huge difference.

Not saying he won't be any more than a 4th liner but I don't think many would have thought Rust or Sheary would have been much better than bottom 6 wingers. I'd rather have him than Wilson. That's more of a gut feeling he'll be better from what I've seen so far.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Rust back then was a year younger (than Archie now)and averaged over a season would have put up 10 more points in a season in the AHL. Not a huge difference.

Not saying he won't be any more than a 4th liner but I don't think many would have thought Rust or Sheary would have been much better than bottom 6 wingers. I'd rather have him than Wilson. That's more of a gut feeling he'll be better from what I've seen so far.

Rust really isn't much better than a bottom-6 winger though, he's a 3rd liner that just happens to fit the team perfectly and meshes really well with both Sid and Geno. I'll use the same phrase again, Archibald projects to only be a lite beer version of Rust at best. Wilson is a clearly better player than Archibald, I really don't know on what basis you'd say that Archibald will be better.

Archibald just really isn't that good, that's what it comes down to. He can skate fast and plays chippy, but that's really about it. He has nothing on guys who have already been ~30 point forwards at the NHL level because I seriously doubt he even has that upside. He has never shown that kind of offensive game at any time in the pro level. He's also pretty undersized, which hurts him as well IMO.

 

[Shady Machine]

The issues I have with that lineup are:

A. That 3rd line is laughably unskilled.
B. That 4th line is laughably bad.

Is that justification enough to keep Sprong up? That is, does making the 3rd line insanely more skilled plus beefing up the 4th line worth potentially losing Archibald to waivers? I'd honestly say yes, but that's because I don't think Archibald would get claimed off waivers. I don't think the risk of losing a quality depth player is high enough or significant enough for me to not keep Sprong up if he's ready.

That third line is fine. It all depends on the center and you can always swap Horny and Sheary, which will happen throughout the season anyway.

The 4th line is going to look rough regardless of who the left wing is when it's Rowney and Reaves as the other pieces IMO

 

[Shady Machine]

Rust back then was a year younger (than Archie now)and averaged over a season would have put up 10 more points in a season in the AHL. Not a huge difference.

Not saying he won't be any more than a 4th liner but I don't think many would have thought Rust or Sheary would have been much better than bottom 6 wingers. I'd rather have him than Wilson. That's more of a gut feeling he'll be better from what I've seen so far.

Yeah and I know college stats aren't all that applicable now but Archie out produced Rust by a significant margin at Nebraska vs Norte Dame. Rust played all 4 years so he may have been a bit more mature coming out. Rust has certainly translated better in the pros but let's give it a full year in the NHL before making declarations like "at best Archibald is a 4th line energy guy"

 

[Empoleon8771]

I'm seriously having a tough time understanding why arguing against Archibald being a 4th liner at best is the hill you want to die on

There's nothing about Archibald's 3 pro years that suggests he'll be anything but a 4th in the NHL. Hell, his production doesn't even really suggest that. In Rust's case, he put up over a half PPG in his rookie season in the AHL and then was called up not much into his 2nd season. Through 3 years in the AHL now, Archibald hasn't even matched what Rust did in his rookie season. Seeing how Archibald was more productive than Rust in college, that's an area for concern there when it comes to him.

I view Archibald's upside to be the same that Kuhnhackl's upside is, because Kuhnhackl is another example of a guy who put up big numbers prior to turning pro, but really hasn't done much offensively in the pros (although Kuhnhackl did produce before getting called up last year). Kuhnhackl is an excellent 4th liner IMO, he produces at like a 25ish point pace consistently and is a solid PKer. I really have trouble seeing Archibald topping that.

 

[Shady Machine]

There's no hill to die on here. You just say funny things sometimes like "that 4th line is laughably bad" yet it has an "excellent 4th liner" in Kuhn on it. I am mostly objecting to the way you word things and in this case, I think it's more appropriate to say Archibald is likely to top out as a 4th liner and not "he's a 4th liner at best" and "he's not that good". He has attributes to make him successful in the NHL. Whether he capitalizes on them remains to be seen. It's not a big deal though and I'm certainly not dying over here haha

 

[Jenkins]

Rust really isn't much better than a bottom-6 winger though, he's a 3rd liner that just happens to fit the team perfectly and meshes really well with both Sid and Geno. I'll use the same phrase again, Archibald projects to only be a lite beer version of Rust at best. Wilson is a clearly better player than Archibald, I really don't know on what basis you'd say that Archibald will be better.

Archibald just really isn't that good, that's what it comes down to. He can skate fast and plays chippy, but that's really about it. He has nothing on guys who have already been ~30 point forwards at the NHL level because I seriously doubt he even has that upside. He has never shown that kind of offensive game at any time in the pro level. He's also pretty undersized, which hurts him as well IMO.

That's a fair statement. I like his attributes more than Wilson's. I think he could be in the Hagelin mould which we do need still. I think he'll be more dynamic and a better fit than Wilson.

We have a really good balance of wingers here so it's important to keep that. On one side we have the skilled scorers Guentzel, Sheary, Kessel, Sprong (potentially). On the other we have a mixture of good fore/backcheckers, guys that can play harder (do the dirty work) in Hornqvist, Hagelin, Rust, Reaves, Wilson, Archibald, Kuhnhackl, ZAR (potentially).

That's pretty awesome and a long way off from what we had just a few years ago. In that second group we may potentially lose 2 of our better guys in Hornqvist and Hagelin soon so it's good to see what we have before losing players.