Salary Cap: Salary Cap + Roster Building | Every time I refresh, I panic.

[Empoleon8771]

This is the breakdown, though:

Our defense is nearly worthless as trade bait. So. Do you really think JR can send anyone out of the backend that would bring anyone in to improve it?

The forwards are either:

Very ****ty and expensive, making them unattractive as trade bait. Or young, good contracts, but underperforming.

It's not about downplaying three forwards or defense.

It's just, the only assets to trade are promising forwards. Which is probably the last thing a "rebuilding" team should trade. It likely just continues to hurt three forward corps while the defense continues to suck.

It's very no win.

Outside of Johnson and Ruhwedel, I don't really buy this. I still think Maatta has value, I can't tell how much but he does have some value. Oleksiak is probably appealing to other teams for the same reason he was appealing to the Penguins, and he has also performed pretty well for the Penguins too. There is more certainty with him now than there was a year ago, he has shown he can be a decent bottom pair guy.

The only very valuable pieces in the organization beyond the top guys are Guentzel and Dumoulin, but I still think guys like Rust, Brassard, Maatta and Oleksiak have decent or better value.

 

[pistolpete11]

The problems at forward are much less personnel related than the problems on defense IMO.

 

[EightyOne]

.

The only very valuable pieces in the organization beyond the top guys are Guentzel and Dumoulin, but I still think guys like Rust, Brassard, Maatta and Oleksiak have decent or better value.

Sure. This makes sense. They HAVE trade value, what they lack are good contracts or enough talent that anyone coming back is an upgrade.

You can trade em for same or worse.

I'm not buying that two new players fix the team. Because starting the year this roster looked great.

It's the way they're being told to play hockey that's a problem. You wanna throw shit at the wall and see what sticks, fine. But it's not a personnel issue at this point anyway. It's management.

 

[Riptide]

I'd already proposed that one in the same thread and got a rather short answer.

I can see it being Oleksiak though. Everyone's looking at Maatta and it makes sense, but I think Rutherford values him higher than most of the market and he's more in favour with the coaches than Oleksiak. And Oleksiak wouldn't leave Anaheim staring at their salary structure and scratching their head once Fowler and Lindholm were back...

... although there's an argument for Maatta being a guy you want in your top 4 in the right system, and I'm not sure there's one for Oleksiak.

The fans are looking at Maatta because most hate his skating and are unwilling to look past it - even when Maatta is playing very well. They're even more unwilling to look past it when he's struggling. But I don't think JR is all that willing to move Maatta. Even with our struggles he's still playing well over 19 minutes a game.

 

[Peat]

The defense is a problem right now, but I don't think people should be using the defense being a problem as a way to minimize the forwards being a problem. Both are problems, Rutherford should be focusing on improving both of them. You shouldn't be picking 1 and ignoring the other one, both need to be addressed.

I agree that people are minimising the forward issues but I'm with pistolpete - the defence is a bigger personnel issue. The forwards is much more solvable with hard work or system or just playing as well as they can.

 

[Riptide]

As for Guentzel? A month ago I'd have written a paragraph++ explaining why that's a really bad idea. Now? Eh... go for it. We all know what he's done in the playoffs but he's been miserable this season and there are like two guys total who should be safe.

On the flip side, think of what this is doing to his bottom line. He's on pace for 27g/54pts. Not bad at all... but certainly not a breakout campaign from someone who likely saw himself getting 5-6.5m this summer.

 

[Riptide]

But this year, the tiny one-dimensional forward with every offensive advantage is on pace for 40 points instead of 30. He's hit '16-'17 Kunitz territory only without the defense or physicality...ooohh.

So we're back to mocking 40 pts eh... too bad Sprong couldn't even play at that pace last season despite being a one dimensional forward with every offensive advantage and playing with a super star...

 

[Empoleon8771]

On the flip side, think of what this is doing to his bottom line. He's on pace for 27g/54pts. Not bad at all... but certainly not a breakout campaign from someone who likely saw himself getting 5-6.5m this summer.

The problem is that he's still going to get $5-$6.5 million on his next contract with that kind of production. The only comparables below $5 million signed their deals in like 2016. I think that is honestly a great reason to look to move Guentzel, he's due for a contract extension at a time where RFA contracts are super inflated.

The fact that Guentzel is up for an extension this summer is the strongest justification to move him. The market right now isn't kind when it comes to RFAs, Guentzel is probably going to get a contract that he's not worth for his next deal.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

On the flip side, think of what this is doing to his bottom line. He's on pace for 27g/54pts. Not bad at all... but certainly not a breakout campaign from someone who likely saw himself getting 5-6.5m this summer.

That's a good way to look at it. But you know how this can go. His playoff totals are impressive. Whether or not you think that's realistic or sustainable (I don't), it'll be hammered on in contract negotiations.

 

[Riptide]

Skinner's base is going to be 7m. That much is obvious just based on what JVR and Kane got. He's going to get 7m at least, but aiming for 9? That's when you're pushing it and basically saying fit doesn't matter to me, money does more than anything.

Maybe they'll settle for 7.5m/yr for 8yrs or something and this is just a horrific negotiation tactic, but jeez, if his camp is 100% aiming for 9. Then Toronto is beyond ****ed.

Marner is making a case right now for 7m+ with the year he's having as well, forget Nylander, if they sign Nylander, they're going to have to move people just to keep that top 6 in tact.

He's currently playing at a 57g/86pt pace. Most of which is coming at ES (45g/61pt pace). Since the lockout, there's only been 60 players who've had 60+ ES points, and only 2 (Ovechkin and Stamkos) who've ever managed to hit 40+ ES goals - and they've only managed to do it once each.

So while I get and understand what you're saying... goal scorers are at such a premium that someone will pay him well over 8m if he hits 50g/80pts this season, especially if most of it comes at ES.

 

[Riptide]

I don't remember that at all. I remember him having 1 shift with Malkin, showing the kind of thing that made you drool for more and then as usual, benched for the rest of the 3rd period.

This is getting very old very quickly, and is something you've been moaning about for a while. And at the start of the season it was a valid point... but it hasn't been for a while now and certainly not since the Vancouver game. Since the Vancouver game, he's played in 5 games. Here's his TOI/shifts in the 3rd in each game.

OTT: 4:04, 6 shifts (+1 shift from the 2nd)
NYI: 2:03, 3 shifts (same number of shifts from the 2nd)
NYI: 3:20, 4 shifts (same number of shifts from the 2nd)
TOR: 4:13, 6 shifts (+4 shifts from the 2nd)
NJD: 3:51, 6 shifts (+2 shifts from the 2nd)

I miss Sheary.

Also, even guys like Rust haven't scored much with Crosby and Brassard spent a decent amount with Sid and had 1 goal. So it's like, people saying Sprong "had his chances and failed" well...so did Brassard and Rust, but they keep getting chances. Sprong actually looks better with Malkin and yet that isn't explored much if at all. For a team struggling at every facet of the game, you would hope for more creativity, more chances, anything that sparks something and yet, it's the same tried and true things, hoping it just "snaps" into place.

Brassard and Rust are also significantly better defensively and away from the puck. And when you're struggling defensively, one of the things almost everyone is apt to do, is to rein in the one dimensional offense only players who are poor defensively and away from the puck.

 

[Riptide]

Okay that's just mean.

And sadly... not all that wrong.

 

[Riptide]

They told me last December Sullivan doesn’t like Sprong and I passed that info along to the board because I was told it wasn’t a big secret. I was then recently told that Sprong was being aggressively shopped.

Him being back in the lineup I can only assume means JR couldn’t find a taker.

This is the part that surprises me. If Rutherford was "aggressively" shopping him (and this wouldn't surprise me in the least - sadly), why wouldn't you put him with Crosby or Malkin and showcase him a little? I mean they even took him off the PP2 the other night (other than 1 20 second shift).

I'm good with leaving him on L4 if the plan is to hang onto him for the season and only give him more TOI/chances if he plays very well or there's injuries, and then see where things shake out at the end of the season... but to leave him on L4 then aggressively shop him just seems very wrong.

 

[Empoleon8771]

They told me last December Sullivan doesn’t like Sprong and I passed that info along to the board because I was told it wasn’t a big secret. I was then recently told that Sprong was being aggressively shopped.

Him being back in the lineup I can only assume means JR couldn’t find a taker.

Or maybe teams want to see him in game action, so it's kinda like a showcase. When I saw the Simon-Grant-Sprong line, my first thought was "are they planning on showcasing Sprong with Crosby and Simon?". It's not like they played Sprong at all before the rumors started coming out, so if there were any scouts who wanted to see Sprong, they only saw a very limited amount.

Did you ever get an idea for why they were aggressively shopping him? Is Sullivan's dislike of him that strong?

This is the part that surprises me. If Rutherford was "aggressively" shopping him (and this wouldn't surprise me in the least - sadly), why wouldn't you put him with Crosby or Malkin and showcase him a little? I mean they even took him off the PP2 the other night (other than 1 20 second shift).

I'm good with leaving him on L4 if the plan is to hang onto him for the season and only give him more TOI/chances if he plays very well or there's injuries, and then see where things shake out at the end of the season... but to leave him on L4 then aggressively shop him just seems very wrong.

This is honestly my thought for what they're doing now, if Crosby replaces Grant in the lineup. Sullivan seems to be wanting to get rid of Sprong while simultaneously making sure the Penguins don't get a good return for him, it just doesn't make sense.

 

[Riptide]

I don't want them to deal Jake. I think it's the wrong move, both short and long term. If this funk keeps up, I could see McKenzie's point coming to pass in the form of a Kessel deal though.

Moving Kessel would be a very hard trade to make - especially in season. He can block all but 8 teams. Last time around his list was (IIRC): Montreal, Boston, LA, Chicago, Philly, Minny, Pittsburgh and New York (R). And while it's possible that the list has changed a little bit, I doubt it's changed enough for us to make a great trade and be a better team because of it.

I appreciate your continued crusade against Sprong, but as long as he's getting 12 shifts on the fourth line, you can't tell me he's actually playing.

16 shifts vs OTT. 14 shifts vs TOR. 14 shifts vs NJ. I can't remember what he had vs NYI and don't have the page up anymore, but that accounts for 3 of his last 5 games.

 

[chethejet]

Pens lose tonight and man GMJR will have to bring the axe and ticket punch to the room. I think Sully has to inform the players this is it for those who continue to float and play with no sense of urgency. Can;t hope Sid comes back as a superstar that can carry them. Those days are over as to Sid and Geno for any extended period.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

This is the part that surprises me. If Rutherford was "aggressively" shopping him (and this wouldn't surprise me in the least - sadly), why wouldn't you put him with Crosby or Malkin and showcase him a little? I mean they even took him off the PP2 the other night (other than 1 20 second shift).

.

The Pens rarely "showcase" players about to be traded. They're usually up in the press box or have their mins reduced drastically
See Ian Cole, Scuderi and Ryan Reaves

 

[KIRK]

Seriously... every time I refresh I panic.

A scarier sight for you right now . . . the Pens play/roster OR @Ogrezilla wardrobe/footwear?

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

This is the part that surprises me. If Rutherford was "aggressively" shopping him (and this wouldn't surprise me in the least - sadly), why wouldn't you put him with Crosby or Malkin and showcase him a little? I mean they even took him off the PP2 the other night (other than 1 20 second shift).

I'm good with leaving him on L4 if the plan is to hang onto him for the season and only give him more TOI/chances if he plays very well or there's injuries, and then see where things shake out at the end of the season... but to leave him on L4 then aggressively shop him just seems very wrong.

Not sure what you are talking about to be honest.

Once JR start shopping him around he was on the bench so he didn’t get hurt, essentially.

It’s exactly why you heard Friedman, DK, and Mackey all being mouthpieces for the org about Sprong potentially being gone soon. The org usually preps the fans through the media before a guy is moved.

The fact he was put back in makes me believe JR was likely getting garbage offers, which isn’t exactly a surprise.

 

[Riptide]

The Pens rarely "showcase" players about to be traded. They're usually up in the press box or have their mins reduced drastically
See Ian Cole, Scuderi and Ryan Reaves

And I would say the difference with those 3 vs someone like Sprong, is that a 2 game/week/month stint wasn't going to change anything with them. Everyone knew exactly who those players were, and what they brought to the table. Sprong is in a completely different situation. A 2 game/week/month stint could significantly change people's perception of him and what he could do/bring to the table.

 

[ColePens]

A scarier sight for you right now . . . the Pens play/roster OR @Ogrezilla wardrobe/footwear?

Dude no joke, I like embrace myself before refreshing. I am so nervous. JR is a scary GM.

 

[KIRK]

Dude no joke, I like embrace myself before refreshing. I am so nervous. JR is a scary GM.

Excellent point. YOU know how to help @Ogrezilla beyond his fashion crisis. JR and the Pens crisis? Yeah, I get why that would worry more.

Posted in the GDT. We HAD to move Sheary and Hunwick to create cap space. Just over 5M. There wasn't a person here who did NOT love it.

And then JR spent every penny on deals for Riley Sheahan AND a contract for JMFJ so long that he's signed 2 years beyond Geno's current deal.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

Excellent point. YOU know how to help @Ogrezilla beyond his fashion crisis. JR and the Pens crisis? Yeah, I get why that would worry more.

Posted in the GDT. We HAD to move Sheary and Hunwick to create cap space. Just over 5M. There wasn't a person here who did NOT love it.

And then JR spent every penny on deals for Riley Sheahan AND a contract for JMFJ so long that he's signed 2 years beyond Geno's current deal.

Re-signing Sheahan was viewed as a no brainer amongst these parts and it was due to:

1) He was a good 3/4C tweener who didn't hurt the team when on the ice
2) He was a good pk guy
3) He was insanely cheap when you looked at comparables
4) He was viewed as insurance if/when Brass left for FA- he was essentially a hedge

He appeared to be a guy who was in a crappy situation (Detroit) and turned it around when he got surrounded by actual talent.
This is Monday morning qbing at it's zenith. Everyone knew signing JJ was dumb. No one knew Sheahan would crater this badly

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

^^^^

Have to agree with that. That signing was widely lauded at the time. I fully admit that I was pleased about it.

I realize Sheahan is limited in some ways. But I think it's fair to say most didn't see THIS kind of regression coming. I mean... he's just miserable out there.

Then again there seems to be regression all over the roster. Usually that points to something. Not sure what.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Did you ever get an idea for why they were aggressively shopping him? Is Sullivan's dislike of him that strong?

Why is he being shopped? Sullivan doesn’t think he fits his team and the way he wants his guys to play. Doesn’t think he’s an NHL player.

Is his dislike that strong? They don’t speculate on how Sullivan feels about him personally.

I’m sure if he started popping in lots of goals Sullivan could tolerate him like he does Kessel. I mean, he did push Cole and Reaves out, but they didn’t score a lot of points I guess.

So if Sprong can ever get his mojo back and rack up goals and points, I’d think he is relatively safe. However, that’s probably not likely for several reasons... ie his usage, the fact his last game is the only game he looked remotely like the explosive goal scorer I’m used to seeing, etc

Who knows what will happen, but if anyone thinks Sullivan truly wants Sprong on this roster, they are living in a fantasy world.