Proposal: Rumors and Proposals Thread: Another Day, Another Disappointment

[Jumptheshark]

He needs to get a deal done with Brassard or Ferland ... or at the very least Vanek or Maroon.

None of these deals require long term cap commitment most likely, just having cap room for the sake of having it while the roster lanquishes in actual NHL games is meaningless.

ferland head knocks and we have Lucic--maroon who is better--plays the same style of the game--speed was a big part of our problem last year

 

[Soundwave]

But results matter, you said so yourself.

Tambo did little and the team performed horribly. Holland has done little and his team hasn't played a game yet. Unill the games have been played we honestly don't know if what he did was good or not. Winnipeg did nothing after a **** year and then were suddenly a good playoff team.

Maybe Holland truly believes some of our youth is ready to make an impact and they will. Until the games were played we don't know if the lack of action was a success or a failure.

Cause as you said, results matter.

We already have a pretty good idea of what this roster can do. We've seen it for the last 24 months.

 

[CupofOil]

The funny part was how he was 'developing' a gigantic turd. His team was bereft of prospect depth and was moving from coach to coach while half-assedly addressing the glaring holes on defense.

It's been beaten to death at this point, but taking the team out of the hands of the OBC brought life to our development system after two full decades of legitimate scorched Earth.

No argument there although I'd hold off on praising the current development system until they churn out actual impact NHLers. Thus far, the Oilers still can't develop NHLers from their system. Even their 1st round picks aren't progressing.

I was just mentioning the MacT quote because he learned his lesson from making false promises earlier in his regime. I know that the goal of every GM on some level is to make the playoffs but at some point, actions have to follow up the words and at no point this offseason has Holland made a move to indicate that he's trying to make the playoffs next season.
He's not stupid, I don't think he really thinks that subtracting Sekera and standing relatively pat otherwise is going to turn a bottom 7 team into a bubble playoff team.
He's just saying that playoffs is the goal to appease the angry fanbase but little does he know that this fanbase knows better. Most of us know that next season is cooked unless some crazy stuff happens.

 

[Soundwave]

ferland head knocks and we have Lucic--maroon who is better--plays the same style of the game--speed was a big part of our problem last year

He scores goals too. I don't care at this point if the player is physical/finesse/slow/fast ... do you f***ing score goals or not?

If the answer is "yes", we need to consider it strongly.

Puck. In. Net. Can. You. Do? Yes? Hello, we have contract for you.

That simple, lol. We're not in any damn position to be that picky at this stage.

 

[CycloneSweep]

To be honest, I don't understand the Holland signing if the goal is to have long term success.

The guy is 63, and you could literally hire anyone to do what he's been doing. Why not go for a younger candidate who over the course of the year or two of minimal action, can build some rapport with the other GMs of the league? Not like you can't tell any GM not to chase high end free agents.

I understand Holland already has a reputation throughout the league, but why does it make sense to Katz to pay him 5m a year to sit on his hands?

Again, I'm trying not to sound like I'm hating on Holland here, this org just deserves to be questioned.

Because this team is in a very dangerous place and is one wrong move away from...I don't even know how low that an be. A young gm can easily be taken to the cleaners or try some weird fancy stats move like moving Draisaitl for a third line or some bad move cause they are trying to make a splash.

You hire a guy like Holland for long term success because a vet like Holland is always looking to the future not trying to make a name for himself. You spend 5 mill on Holland because you want a guy who has the balls to do what's needed for long term success and ignore the whining and crying

 

[Soundwave]

Because this team is in a very dangerous place and is one wrong move away from...I don't even know how low that an be. A young gm can easily be taken to the cleaners or try some weird fancy stats move like moving Draisaitl for a third line or some bad move cause they are trying to make a splash.

You hire a guy like Holland for long term success because a vet like Holland is always looking to the future not trying to make a name for himself. You spend 5 mill on Holland because you want a guy who has the balls to do what's needed for long term success and ignore the whining and crying

If this is the case, then I think Holland is out of touch with McDavid/Draisaitl/RNH.

It's great he is oblivious to the past here because he wasn't part of it, but this whole "well I'll just take it slow and easy and think about really only improving maybe next summer" shit is not gonna fly.

All I'll say is in a year he better not be going "gee whiz! Connor sure sounded pissed off in that exit interview! This is a lot of pressure now all in this summer!" 11 months from now.

We don't have time for a GM to stretch his legs and take a year to get acquainted before he starts doing any actual work.

 

[CycloneSweep]

We already have a pretty good idea of what this roster can do. We've seen it for the last 24 months.

It's still an assumption. We have a lot of youth that could breakout and fill roster spots so until the games are played we don't know.

We can dislike the moves and think it's not enough but calling him a failure already is unfair cause things always change in retrospect

Winnipeg was terrible did nothing, became a contender and then started making trades to enhance.

 

[Soundwave]

It's still an assumption. We have a lot of youth that could breakout and fill roster spots so until the games are played we don't know.

We can dislike the moves and think it's not enough but calling him a failure already is unfair cause things always change in retrospect

Winnipeg was terrible did nothing, became a contender and then started making trades to enhance.

They didn't "do nothing". They hit it out of the park with picks like Connor and Ehlers and got a star sniper in Laine to go with several other good players and were rewarded for it.

That's why they could do that. The Oilers don't have that pipeline, not even close.

Anything can theoretically happen, Ottawa could win the Cup in 11 months too, doesn't make it freaking likely though.

 

[Paralyzer008]

Wait till you see the shot generation. Adam Larsson was seventh on the team last season.

Scoring Chances For /60 at 5v5 (min 20 games):

1. Connor McDavid 30.03
2. Leon Draisaitl 27.52
3. Drake Caggiula 26.82
4. Sam Gagner 26.52
5. Oscar Klefbom 25.76
6. Andrej Sekera 25.58
7. Zack Kassian 25.52
8. Matt Benning 25.07
9. Adam Larsson 24.83
10. Darnell Nurse 24.6

Compare to St. Louis's top 10:

1. Brayden Schenn 33.82
2. Vince Dunn 32.55
3. Vladimir Tarasenko 32.21
4. Carl Gunnarsson 31.55
5. Jaden Schwartz 30.7
6. Ryan O'Reilly 30.64
7. Alex Pietrangelo 30.59
8. Robert Bortuzzo 29.91
9. Robert Thomas 27.9
10. Robby Fabbri 27.11

 

[CupofOil]

It's still an assumption. We have a lot of youth that could breakout and fill roster spots so until the games are played we don't know.

We can dislike the moves and think it's not enough but calling him a failure already is unfair cause things always change in retrospect

Winnipeg was terrible did nothing, became a contender and then started making trades to enhance.

Winnipeg was a massively underachieving roster held back by poor goaltending and stupid penalties. Once they got adequate goaltending and cut down on the stupid, they took off like most people thought they would eventually because they had a bushel of high end skilled young players who were on the verge of breaking out. They had real growth potential, the Oilers really don't, at least not for a few years.

 

[CycloneSweep]

If this is the case, then I think Holland is out of touch with McDavid/Draisaitl/RNH.

It's great he is oblivious to the past here because he wasn't part of it, but this whole "well I'll just take it slow and easy and think about really only improving maybe next summer" **** is not gonna fly.

All I'll say is in a year he better not be going "gee whiz! Connor sure sounded pissed off in that exit interview! This is a lot of pressure now all in this summer!".

We don't have time for a GM to stretch his legs and take a year to get acquainted before he starts doing any actual work.

Holland sat down and talked to McDavid before the draft. You don't think Holland laid out his plan to his star player?

You don't think the GM who made the playoffs more than any GM in history who had his star players stay loyal to the team, who he had great relationships with, who he groomed one to be a GM and then eventual replace him, would talk to Connor f***ing McDavid and get a feeling where he was at and if he was down with the plan?

Give me a break

 

[Oilhawks]

Wasn't the "it's literally impossible for it to happen again" also the logic used to show why Lucic's at the time unbelievable cold streak for the 2nd half of the 2017-18 season simply wouldn't replicate for 2018-19 ... but then it did and got even worse actually? lol.

I get were you're coming from and I agree to an extent. But there are a lot more variables at play when we're talking about most of a roster and not just one player starting his decline. I mean, most of those players were also not very good to begin with which doesn't help.

 

[Soundwave]

Holland sat down and talked to McDavid before the draft. You don't think Holland laid out his plan to his star player?

You don't think the GM who made the playoffs more than any GM in history who had his star players stay loyal to the team, who he had great relationships with, who he groomed one to be a GM and then eventual replace him, would talk to Connor ****ing McDavid and get a feeling where he was at and if he was down with the plan?

Give me a break

I think if Holland fails here a lot of people will be saying that he wasn't proactive enough and then got himself into a tight corner where suddenly the pressure ramped up real fast.

So far he's not really disproving that view on him. If he wants leash from the fanbase he can go out and do something positive for the team, otherwise many Oiler fans are rightfully so under no obligation to give this GM or any GM any benefit of the doubt anymore.

Get shit done or shut the f*** up. Blind loyalty for this franchise went out the window about 18 months ago.

 

[CycloneSweep]

Winnipeg was a massively underachieving roster held back by poor goaltending and stupid penalties. Once they got adequate goaltending and cut down on the stupid, they took off like most people thought they would eventually because they had a bushel of high end skilled young players who were on the verge of breaking out. They had real growth potential, the Oilers really don't, at least not for a few years.

Jones, Lagesson and Persson are all potential guys who can take a big step at defense. Benson, Yamamoto and Marody could all come in and take a big step at forward. Mike Smith could actually have a bounce back year and Koskinen could fix his glove hand. We have potential to take big steps too, we already have McDavid, Draisaitl and RNH. If Benson and Yamamoto can be even 40-50 point wingers next year that massively improves our forwards.

It's a risk, I know that, I think he should of done more, but until the games are played...we don't know if it paid off or not.

 

[Soundwave]

Jones, Lagesson and Persson are all potential guys who can take a big step at defense. Benson, Yamamoto and Marody could all come in and take a big step at forward. Mike Smith could actually have a bounce back year and Koskinen could fix his glove hand. We have potential to take big steps too, we already have McDavid, Draisaitl and RNH. If Benson and Yamamoto can be even 40-50 point wingers next year that massively improves our forwards.

It's a risk, I know that, I think he should of done more, but until the games are played...we don't know if it paid off or not.

LOL.

 

[belair]

Scoring Chances For /60 at 5v5 (min 20 games):

1. Connor McDavid 30.03
2. Leon Draisaitl 27.52
3. Drake Caggiula 26.82
4. Sam Gagner 26.52
5. Oscar Klefbom 25.76
6. Andrej Sekera 25.58
7. Zack Kassian 25.52
8. Matt Benning 25.07
9. Adam Larsson 24.83
10. Darnell Nurse 24.6

Compare to St. Louis's top 10:

1. Brayden Schenn 33.82
2. Vince Dunn 32.55
3. Vladimir Tarasenko 32.21
4. Carl Gunnarsson 31.55
5. Jaden Schwartz 30.7
6. Ryan O'Reilly 30.64
7. Alex Pietrangelo 30.59
8. Robert Bortuzzo 29.91
9. Robert Thomas 27.9
10. Robby Fabbri 27.11

You're missing the point. When Adam Larsson is seventh on your team in shots on goal, your offense is creating squat. The percentages may go down, but the opportunities should increase drastically--specifically beyond our top three point producers.

 

[CycloneSweep]

I think if Holland fails here a lot of people will be saying that he wasn't proactive enough and then got himself into a tight corner where suddenly the pressure ramped up real fast.

So far he's not really disproving that view on him. If he wants leash from the fanbase he can go out and do something positive for the team, otherwise many Oiler fans are rightfully so under no obligation to give this GM or any GM any benefit of the doubt anymore.

Get **** done or shut the **** up. Blind loyalty for this franchise went out the window about 18 months ago.

And if Holland makes the big move, spends tons of assets to move out Lucic and bring in a top 6 winger and then that winger fails and Lucic bounces back people will shit on him for f***ing up and making a trade. Every move a GM makes looks different in retrospect, sometimes better, sometimes worse.

Got himself in a tight corner? He came in and was in a tight corner. His 2 options were do everything he could and take huge risks to try and get out immediately or play the slow game and get out of the corner as soon as he seems a good opening.

It's like boxing. Some guys can win by going all out early and just going for a TKO. Or you can be like Mayweather and play the patient game, takes longer but can pay off massively. There are 2 ways to do it and you won't know if it was a good idea until the fights over.

 

[Paralyzer008]

Jones, Lagesson and Persson are all potential guys who can take a big step at defense. Benson, Yamamoto and Marody could all come in and take a big step at forward. Mike Smith could actually have a bounce back year and Koskinen could fix his glove hand. We have potential to take big steps too, we already have McDavid, Draisaitl and RNH. If Benson and Yamamoto can be even 40-50 point wingers next year that massively improves our forwards.

It's a risk, I know that, I think he should of done more, but until the games are played...we don't know if it paid off or not.

Last year's rookies with over 35+ points at forward:

Elias Pettersson
Brady Tkachuk
Andreas Johnsson
Colin White
Anthony Cirelli
Andrei Svechnikov
Dominik Kahun

I like Yamamoto and Benson's futures but - note that no team had TWO of these guys.

The most promising comparable would likely be Johnsson as he was a PPG in the AHL and Benson was close.

 

[Soundwave]

You're missing the point. When Adam Larsson is seventh on your team in shots on goal, your offense is creating squat. The percentages may go down, but the opportunities should increase drastically--specifically beyond our top three point producers.

The offence is creating what it should ... it's a crap overall offence.

 

[SK13]

Shooting percentages:

McDavid 17%
Draisaitl 21.6%
RNH 13.5%
Chiasson 17.9%
Kassian 13.5%
Lucic 8.1%
Khaira 4.7%
Gagner 9.8%
Brodziak 8.1%
Granlund 9.8%
Cave 5%


Math wise, I don't see the potential to grow from the current group of vets. Khaira/Cave might get luckier for a couple, but Lucic/Brodziak/Gagner/Granlund aren't elite shooting talents already and Draisaitl/Chiasson had stretches where literally everything went in, so they could even see reductions.

The Oilers whole plan to get more goals would be Nygard, Haas + any youngsters (Benson/Marody) - they'd have to out perform Rieder (easy), Puljujarvi (doable) and Caggiula (actually harder considering he was at 14% shooting or so) PLUS they'd have to score more than last year's group anyways.

Naked shooting percentages here don't tell you much, other than the fact that Draisaitl and Chiasson shot the ceiling out and are likely to lose a handful of goals.

Lucic, Khaira and Reider played a collective 2600 minutes and scored 9 total goals. To say that is an underperformance is an understatement. Strome and Spooner played 500 minutes combined and scored 3 goals. Ty Rattie 560 minutes and scored 5 goals. Jesse Puljujarvi played 540 minutes and scored 4 goals. The total offensive contribution from all Oilers forwards (after Drai, McDavid and RNH) is 80 goals among 20 forwards - nearly half coming from Chiasson and Kassian. That's 4 goals a player.

I will bet you EVERY dollar I will ever earn that number is bigger next season even failing to add another winger. It'd have been bigger next year with an identical team coached by the same person. It's one of those insane statistical unders that is pretty obvious to not repeat: like the Oilers 17-18 powerplay.

 

[Soundwave]

And if Holland makes the big move, spends tons of assets to move out Lucic and bring in a top 6 winger and then that winger fails and Lucic bounces back people will **** on him for ****ing up and making a trade. Every move a GM makes looks different in retrospect, sometimes better, sometimes worse.

Got himself in a tight corner? He came in and was in a tight corner. His 2 options were do everything he could and take huge risks to try and get out immediately or play the slow game and get out of the corner as soon as he seems a good opening.

It's like boxing. Some guys can win by going all out early and just going for a TKO. Or you can be like Mayweather and play the patient game, takes longer but can pay off massively. There are 2 ways to do it and you won't know if it was a good idea until the fights over.

He's got options right now. Brassard, Ferland, even Maroon or Vanek can all help this team and at this stage the negotiating leverage for long term deals is gone from these guys.

He needs to get it done. Otherwise he will get a failing grade for this offseason.

"I was hoarding cap space for two years down the line!" can't be your only management philosophy.

 

[Soundwave]

Naked shooting percentages here don't tell you much, other than the fact that Draisaitl and Chiasson shot the ceiling out and are likely to lose a handful of goals.

Lucic, Khaira and Reider played a collective 2600 minutes and scored 9 total goals. To say that is an underperformance is an understatement. Strome and Spooner played 500 minutes combined and scored 3 goals. Ty Rattie 560 minutes and scored 5 goals. Jesse Puljujarvi played 540 minutes and scored 4 goals. The total offensive contribution from all Oilers forwards (after Drai, McDavid and RNH) is 80 goals among 20 forwards - nearly half coming from Chiasson and Kassian. That's 4 goals a player.

I will bet you EVERY dollar I will ever earn that number is bigger next season. It'd have been bigger next year with an identical team coached by the same person. It's one of those insane statistical unders that is pretty obvious to not repeat: like the Oilers 17-18 powerplay.

I could see the bottom six being in the same ball park. Why is Lucic now magically going to start scoring more?

The bottom six doesn't score much because they kinda suck.

 

[Paralyzer008]

You're missing the point. When Adam Larsson is seventh on your team in shots on goal, your offense is creating squat. The percentages may go down, but the opportunities should increase drastically--specifically beyond our top three point producers.

Naked shooting percentages here don't tell you much, other than the fact that Draisaitl and Chiasson shot the ceiling out and are likely to lose a handful of goals.

Lucic, Khaira and Reider played a collective 2600 minutes and scored 9 total goals. To say that is an underperformance is an understatement. Strome and Spooner played 500 minutes combined and scored 3 goals. Ty Rattie 560 minutes and scored 5 goals. Jesse Puljujarvi played 540 minutes and scored 4 goals. The total offensive contribution from all Oilers forwards (after Drai, McDavid and RNH) is 80 goals among 20 forwards - nearly half coming from Chiasson and Kassian. That's 4 goals a player.

I will bet you EVERY dollar I will ever earn that number is bigger next season. It'd have been bigger next year with an identical team coached by the same person. It's one of those insane statistical unders that is pretty obvious to not repeat: like the Oilers 17-18 powerplay.

Okay but who are the new players generating shots? Rookies? Granlund?

The Oilers 17-18 powerplay had the talent - McDavid, Draisaitl, RNH - talent existed there.

I don't see where the 5v5 offense has suddenly come from to improve these numbers - Granlund might be able to pot a few more. Maybe the rookies. Maybe Gagner. Lots of maybes.

 

[CycloneSweep]

LOL.

I don't know why that's funny. Dylan Stroke played a year in the AHL and was a PPG and last year had 57 points in 78 games.

Colin White had 27 points in 47 games in 17/18 and then last season had 41 in 71.

Players who at Benson's age, hover around a PPG, not surprising if they become 40+ guys the following season. Yamamoto yeah a less of a chance but to entirely write that off is kind of ridiculous.

 

[CycloneSweep]

He's got options right now. Brassard, Ferland, even Maroon or Vanek can all help this team and at this stage the negotiating leverage for long term deals is gone from these guys.

He needs to get it done. Otherwise he will get a failing grade for this offseason.

"I was hoarding cap space for two years down the line!" can't be your only management philosophy.

It's been said he is still looking to make a move. He doesn't really have much capspace at all. He has roughly 4 mill capspace and he has said before you want to be 1-2 mill under the cap so you can call up rookies when guys underperform and you don't have to try and push guys thru waivers to make the cap work.

It's said he is working on something still. He isn't hording capspace either