Roster Speculation, 2018 offseason Part 5/ Post-free agency edition

[OkimLom]

None of Murray's moves were questionable IF the players he chose panned out. They all met big needs of the team and shipped-out what was a surplus at the time.

Problem was he missed on nearly every player. The only one he really can't be blamed on is the Kulikov board tailbone incident that derailed him. That was the rink's fault. And don't go telling me some 7th rounder he picked is evidence otherwise - if he knew that player was good he would've taken them in an earlier round. All those 2nd round misses killed us the last few years.

There's no doubt that it stinks those 2nd round picks in a weak draft haven't worked out. But saying those 2nd round misses really killed us is such hyperbolic talk. Glad to see people are patient with our prospects. I mean surely a lot of teams hit on their 2nd round picks that year...[Checks history of 2nd round - yep 3 guys with 50+ games from a draft that happened 5 years ago)

 

[joshjull]

Thing is, most of those that Murray traded away he restocked within two years. Traded McNabb away, drafted Borgen. Traded Zadorov away, drafted Guhle. Traded Pysyk, returned Kulikov. Traded away JT Compher, drafted Asplund and Pu. Traded away Armia, drafted Nylander, traded Lemieux and really didn’t fill this one in. Thats not to mention drafting more guys on top of that.

So the argument about Murray leaving us is bare in terms of prospects is ridiculous. What he took he put back for the most part.

He created a gap in the pipeline. That's not really something that can be disputed. That he has also drafted players who will begin filling the gap a couple years later doesn't change that.


The double standard displayed by some of you excusing or defending Murray's flaws/mistakes while simultaneously giving no quarter to our current GM is staggering.

 

[OkimLom]

He created a gap in the pipeline. That's not really something that can be disputed. That he has also drafted players who will begin filling the gap doesn't change that.


The double standard displayed by some of you excusing or defending Murray's flaws/mistakes while simultaneously giving no quarter to our current GM is staggering.

There's a difference between saying he left us bare and stripped our pipeline, and saying there's a gap because of his actions, which I believe we talked about and I agree with. I'm not excusing him for anything, just stating what happened.

 

[Jim Bob]

He created a gap in the pipeline. That's not really something that can be disputed. That he has also drafted players who will begin filling the gap a couple years later doesn't change that.

The double standard displayed by some of you excusing or defending Murray's flaws/mistakes while simultaneously giving no quarter to our current GM is staggering.

I see lots of double standards.

I love the people that love to complain about the bad contracts that Murray acquired like Moulson and Bogosian and yet they like to overlook that Botterill has added Pominville, Berglund, Sobotka, and Hunwick to the list of bad contracts on the books.

 

[joshjull]

I see lots of double standards.

I love the people that love to complain about the bad contracts that Murray acquired like Moulson and Bogosian and yet they like to overlook that Botterill has added Pominville, Berglund, Sobotka, and Hunwick to the list of bad contracts on the books.

Is this directed at me?

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

I see lots of double standards.

I love the people that love to complain about the bad contracts that Murray acquired like Moulson and Bogosian and yet they like to overlook that Botterill has added Pominville, Berglund, Sobotka, and Hunwick to the list of bad contracts on the books.

Moulson and Bogosian were SUPPOSED to be central players on long-term deals. The guys Botterill has added are short-term problems taken on to get better pieces for the future, with Berglund being semi-long but semi-quality.

 

[Icicle]

There's no doubt that it stinks those 2nd round picks in a weak draft haven't worked out. But saying those 2nd round misses really killed us is such hyperbolic talk. Glad to see people are patient with our prospects. I mean surely a lot of teams hit on their 2nd round picks that year...[Checks history of 2nd round - yep 3 guys with 50+ games from a draft that happened 5 years ago)

2014 late round players are AHL regulars at this point in time typically. Our 2014 picks are barely getting 4th line minutes despite all our 1st rounders skipping the AHL.

And that's only half the problem. All the actual players he targeted in trades sucked and got rightfully ran out of town. The teams we traded a plethora of players to all have those players contributing to their playoff series last season.

 

[Dreakon13]

I see lots of double standards.

I love the people that love to complain about the bad contracts that Murray acquired like Moulson and Bogosian and yet they like to overlook that Botterill has added Pominville, Berglund, Sobotka, and Hunwick to the list of bad contracts on the books.

Probably because we don't actually know how bad most of Botts pickups are yet and are all fairly stomach-able in regards to term. The only one on the books still two years from now is Berglund, who may very well be an effective top 9 guy albeit a little overpaid.

 

[joshjull]

There's a difference between saying he left us bare and stripped our pipeline, and saying there's a gap because of his actions, which I believe we talked about and I agree with. I'm not excusing him for anything, just stating what happened.

The gap he created is a big reason we've had almost no organizational depth the last 3 years. So I can understand posters referring to the cupboard being bare even though its hyperbole to say so.

 

[Jim Bob]

Is this directed at me?

No, just a general observation from some of the cap space debates that have been flying around lately.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

Also, replacing prospects one-for-one is not how you build depth when we all know you strike out on about 70% of them. You have to continuously build the prospect pool to keep the talent level up.

 

[Genny Screamer]

It's interesting that Travis Yost will a contributing Sabres analyst for the Buffalo Snooze. He claims that Eichel and Skinner are a perfect complementary pair. Travis Yost's Sabre Metrics: Why Jack Eichel and Jeff Skinner are a perfect complementary pair

I've heard from others that Eichel and Skinner wouldn't mix.

 

[Djp]

A big reason as too why we have one of the best prospect pools in the NHL right now is, when Murray got fired we didn't have Rasmus Dahlin, we didn't have Casey Middlestadt that is one point right there,


Botterill has drafted very well in the last season bringing in those two along with Samuelsson, Davidsson, Luukkonen, Laaksonen, and Pekar considering we only had 12 picks the last two years,

Botterill has also traded for Tage Thompson who is a top 100 prospect, signed Lawrence Pilut who was the best defenseman in the SHL along with trading for Brandon Hickey who wasn't going to resign in Arizona but we got him to sign here,

Still in the system and who are Murray picks are Alex Nylander who is ready for a breakout season, Rasmus Aslpund is still here, Ullmark is still here and is ready for the NHL, and lets not forget how Olofsson took off this year and has really blossomed into one of our top prospects after having the season he has had.

You have a legit question but Botterill has kept all of our inventory minus Pu, added too our inventory by drafting well trading for a few young players , signing Pilut, developing the players we already had here in ways Murray couldn't (See Olofsson as a perfect example) and I believe Dahlin and Middlestadt were icing on the cake. yes we don't have a pick next season until I believe the 4th round after the first round but we have three 1st round picks and there is no way Botterill is trading any of them unless it's for a top young player who can help this organization long term. I highly doubt he trades any of the picks and keeps them, I can however see him trading back in the first round and picking up an additional 2nd or something

so he should be awarded for finishing 1st overall and winning the lottery??

If TM was still here nd the picks were the same would he have drafted the same players???

If TM were here would we had signed Petersen

TM already did the ground work on the Scandella trade.

As I said before Buffalo needed to trade some forward prospects for defense prospects in 1:1 deals.

TM didn't draft Ullmark

What exactly did JB do that TM didn't in Olafsson ???

 

[Jim Bob]

Moulson and Bogosian were SUPPOSED to be central players on long-term deals. The guys Botterill has added are short-term problems taken on to get better pieces for the future, with Berglund being semi-long but semi-quality.

Bogosian was viewed more as a cap dump than a core piece in the Kane deal at the time of the trade.

And Moulson was more of a "culture" signing than a core player when he was re-signed. He was also signed at a time when they were more of a cap floor team than a cap team.

At the end of the day, there is a conversation about re-signing Reinhart and available cap space. And the Sabres have a lot of "bad contracts" on the books and they were acquired by both Murray and Botterill.

 

[Jim Bob]

It's interesting that Travis Yost will a contributing Sabres analyst for the Buffalo Snooze. He claims that Eichel and Skinner are a perfect complementary pair. Travis Yost's Sabre Metrics: Why Jack Eichel and Jeff Skinner are a perfect complementary pair

I've heard from others that Eichel and Skinner wouldn't mix.

With all due respect to Travis, but I have a hard time with analytics predicting how well two players that haven't played together will mesh.

Analytics are better with saying which combinations a team has used are better.

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

Murray and Botterill collectively ignoring low-cost avenues of talent is why organizational depth sucked for the past three seasons.

Unless Murray traded the assets he did for different, better players (Saad and Hamilton), the team projected to throwing a bunch of youth out there before it was ready. 17/18 was the first year any of the players people bitch about not being able to draft during the Murray years had NHL impact.

 

[JLewyB]

I see lots of double standards.

I love the people that love to complain about the bad contracts that Murray acquired like Moulson and Bogosian and yet they like to overlook that Botterill has added Pominville, Berglund, Sobotka, and Hunwick to the list of bad contracts on the books.

You forgot Gorges for Murray and Botterill was able to include Ennis in the Pominville trade so that was close to a wash. Hunwick=Legwand except we probably didn’t need to take on Legwand so there’s that as well.

The actual team building has been just as bad but Botterill has acquired a few assets in the process while Murray burned through all of them.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

Bogosian was viewed more as a cap dump than a core piece in the Kane deal at the time of the trade.

And Moulson was more of a "culture" signing than a core player when he was re-signed. He was also signed at a time when they were more of a cap floor team than a cap team.

At the end of the day, there is a conversation about re-signing Reinhart and available cap space. And the Sabres have a lot of "bad contracts" on the books and they were acquired by both Murray and Botterill.

What?!? Bogosian was viewed as a slight downgrade from Myers, or even value by some. Calling him a cap dump at the time is revisionist history, and a really bad example of it too.

 

[Jame]

Bogosian was viewed more as a cap dump than a core piece in the Kane deal at the time of the trade.

That's not true at all... Bogo / Myers were viewed as an equal swap with the pick, prospect, player portion being the Kane side of the trade.

And Moulson was more of a "culture" signing than a core player when he was re-signed. He was also signed at a time when they were more of a cap floor team than a cap team.

At the end of the day, there is a conversation about re-signing Reinhart and available cap space. And the Sabres have a lot of "bad contracts" on the books and they were acquired by both Murray and Botterill.

I think the main difference is that Murray's bad contracts were a failure in trying to accelerate and a failure in player identification. He failed. Totally. Done.

Botterill's bad contract are a failure of the spine... he just takes it, other GMs unload on him, and he gets nothing for it...

ROR should return a 1st, 2nd, prospect... bare minimum.... Botts got nothing for taking on TWO multi year contract 30+ year olds... it's absurd.

Sheary... decent little add... Hunwick is a total multi year contract dump. We got nothing for taking on the trash.

Look at what Phoenix has gotten in the past for doing these types of favors... they extract real value.

At least in the Pommer deal you can see some actual value in a legit gap between Foligno and Scandella... but then, his fecklessness rears its head in not buying Pommer out this summer, and then taking on more Pommer-esque contracts...

 

[Jame]

Murray and Botterill collectively ignoring low-cost avenues of talent is why organizational depth sucked for the past three seasons.

Unless Murray traded the assets he did for different, better players (Saad and Hamilton), the team projected to throwing a bunch of youth out there before it was ready. 17/18 was the first year any of the players people ***** about not being able to draft during the Murray years had NHL impact.

Agreed... the so called "Murray Gap" wasn't because of Murray's trades, it was because of the failed development of the last Regier wave of prospects.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

I’m trying to get my head around (according to some) Tim Murray sucked so bad and gutted the organization of descent prospects. That it would take several years to restock the pond with quality prospects.
And yet, in a year, the pond is stocked pretty well and our prospects depth is one of the best in the league.
I’m not talking about Dahlin, or Eichel which are obvious choices at the spot we drafted them.

So is it ....

Tim Murray didn’t gut as much as some like to make up in their over reactive minds?

Or JB has done a great job in restocking and creating depth in the organization and doesn’t suck as much as some want to believe?

Or is it something else?

They won the draft lottery, signed an UDFA in Pilut, unwound the RoR & half the Kane trade, and looked like their 8th pick unexpectedly caught lightning in a bottle for 6 games.

So, half of it was lucky: lottery, Casey
A quarter of it was skill: unwinding RoR / Kane
And a quarter was a high variance event: Pilut

NB: I'm not suggesting trading RoR/Kane made the current team better, but it did/will go a long way to increasing prospect depth.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

Agreed... the so called "Murray Gap" wasn't because of Murray's trades, it was because of the failed development of the last Regier wave of prospects.

Wow, this is some revisionist history. Armia, Zadorov, Compher, McNabb would all earn starting jobs in Buffalo today.

 

[Jame]

It's interesting that Travis Yost will a contributing Sabres analyst for the Buffalo Snooze. He claims that Eichel and Skinner are a perfect complementary pair. Travis Yost's Sabre Metrics: Why Jack Eichel and Jeff Skinner are a perfect complementary pair

I've heard from others that Eichel and Skinner wouldn't mix.

I'm one of those that sees a bit of an oil/water element in putting Eichel/Skinner together. Not only are they both puck dominant players who need to carry the puck to be successful... there's also a strong history of Skinner failing when played with 1st line talent.

However... I absolutely want them to try them together... for the entire season...

The only reason, IMO, to re-sign Skinner... is if he and Eichel are a perfect fit and dominate together. So spend the year being sure about that....

 

[Jame]

Wow, this is some revisionist history. Armia, Zadorov, Compher, McNabb would all earn starting jobs in Buffalo today.

Today... is not the same as the gap that existed a the last 3 years.

Zadorov and Compher is not a good point, as the return for those prospect was one of a top 20 NHL center in his prime.

Armia wasn't an NHLer until this past year...

McNabb was legit depth, and that turned out to be a terrible trade by Murray.

 

[kirby11]

That's not true at all... Bogo / Myers were viewed as an equal swap with the pick, prospect, player portion being the Kane side of the trade.





I think the main difference is that Murray's bad contracts were a failure in trying to accelerate and a failure in player identification. He failed. Totally. Done.

Botterill's bad contract are a failure of the spine... he just takes it, other GMs unload on him, and he gets nothing for it...

ROR should return a 1st, 2nd, prospect... bare minimum.... Botts got nothing for taking on TWO multi year contract 30+ year olds... it's absurd.

Sheary... decent little add... Hunwick is a total multi year contract dump. We got nothing for taking on the trash.

Look at what Phoenix has gotten in the past for doing these types of favors... they extract real value.

At least in the Pommer deal you can see some actual value in a legit gap between Foligno and Scandella... but then, his fecklessness rears its head in not buying Pommer out this summer, and then taking on more Pommer-esque contracts...

To me this indicates one of 2 things, neither good:

Either (a) Botts sucks at negotiating or (b) Botts sucks at evaluating talent (i.e. he thinks Sobotka will be a difference maker in the bottom six and Berglund will be a passable middle six option)

I've brought this up before...part of the reason the 05-06 team was so good was because they could outplay other teams up and down the lineup, especially in the forward ranks. You could count on the 4th line to not only break even, but to sometimes generate offensive pressure. You could also move guys like Hecht/Goose/Grier up the lineup due to injuries for short periods of time without suffering a massive drop-off.

Meanwhile, expectations for recent Sabres bottom 6s have been "Please don't get scored on or take a penalty." The bar for success is incredibly low and they still fail to achieve it pretty often.