Roster Speculation, 2018 offseason Part 5/ Post-free agency edition

[Jame]

In many ways.... the best value our bottom 6 brings is in being the players that the Rochester group has to beat... veteran NHLers.

I hated the way we brought Grigo, Girgs, Risto, Zads, etc.... they didn't have to win jobs, they just had to show up. People talk about rushing them... It's not rushing them that screws up development, it's the lack of true competition, and earning the job that screws it up.

But I also hate treating low end vets the same way... they should have to win jobs to.

It's been nearly a decade of talking about needing "more compete".... guess how you get there? By creating a culture of competition, and sticking to it.

If Botts goes about this the right way, then his collection of castoffs is less repulsive to me...

 

[TehDoak]

They are one and the same... winning develops talent.




They will be best served by playing where they belong in a role they earned. That's it. This slavery to old tropes... has got to go. If Nylander isn't better than Scott Wilson... no problem. Back to Rochester Alex. If Guhle isn't better than Nathan Beaulieu... no problem. Back to Rochester Brendan... but if they ARE better... then they should earn the jobs.

That's culture change.

I'll agree that winning will change culture. But, turnarounds don't happen by filling your 4th line with rookies. I'm not saying EACH player needs to sit in the AHL for 2 seasons irregardless of skill. I don't care if Nylander is miles better than Scott Wilson in camp. If he's not good enough to be in our top 9 forwards and succeed, he should go back to Rochester and get top line power play, PP time. When a spot opens up where he can succeed, we bring him up. Wilson isn't going to complain or sulk playing 40 games and when he gets in, he plays 12 minutes. Nylander won't be happy in that role. And it wouldn't be good for his development.

Look around the league... Winnipeg isn't slow rolling their prospects... they are let them win jobs over veterans, and got back to the playoffs thanks to it. Boston didn't roast Pastrnak, Debrusk, McAvoy, Carlo in the AHL for years.... but these guys were ALLOWED to make the NHL roster, they competed and won... there's no reason for us to do anything different.



Kill this thinking... let's see what they do in camp and preseason, and lets let their play tell us where they are at... not outdated norms.

Boston HAS a veteran core. They have an established system. It's much easier to work in a rookie with Bergeron, Krejci, Marchand, Chara and other vets to help manage. We don't have that (Note that Debrusk spent a year in the AHL. Pastranak spent 25 games) Same with Winnipeg. Schiefele is at his peak, Wheeler, Little, etc. They've got veteran support. (also note, Kyle Connor spent a year in the AHL)

You bring up teams at much different points in their development cycle than us.

 

[haseoke39]

If Asplund cleanly beats Larsson, do you keep him as the 4C? I think he’s better off in Rochester getting the top 6 minutes. And I think Botterill would agree, but that’s a guess.

It depends on coaching and roles.

If you talk with Housley and you can agree on how to utilize him in a productive way for his development, yeah. Maybe he's an option on PP2 or PK, maybe the fourth line can be used for specific kinds of matchups instead of just thrown out there when your top 9 are tired. If you think he's going to be used in ways that are constructive for his development, I don't think 12 minutes vs. 20 minutes is the deciding factor.

Although if you think he's going to float between press box and random minutes wherever there's an injury, that kind of role is probably not worth a year of his development.

 

[Jame]

I'll agree that winning will change culture. But, turnarounds don't happen by filling your 4th line with rookies. I'm not saying EACH player needs to sit in the AHL for 2 seasons irregardless of skill. I don't care if Nylander is miles better than Scott Wilson in camp. If he's not good enough to be in our top 9 forwards and succeed, he should go back to Rochester and get top line power play, PP time. When a spot opens up where he can succeed, we bring him up. Wilson isn't going to complain or sulk playing 40 games and when he gets in, he plays 12 minutes. Nylander won't be happy in that role. And it wouldn't be good for his development.

I've said, numerous times, the best 23 players for the right roles....

I'm not arguing for Nylander to play on a 4th line in a dzone start scenario.... but let's not forget that guys like Oglevie, Malone, and Smith are competing for jobs as well.

Boston HAS a veteran core. They have an established system. It's much easier to work in a rookie with Bergeron, Krejci, Marchand, Chara and other vets to help manage. We don't have that (Note that Debrusk spent a year in the AHL. Pastranak spent 25 games) Same with Winnipeg. Schiefele is at his peak, Wheeler, Little, etc. They've got veteran support. (also note, Kyle Connor spent a year in the AHL)

Asplund has been playing pro for years... same as Olofsson.
Nylander has been in the AHL for two years
Tage was playing in the NHL last year...

There is no year/games/league barrier to the NHL... every player is different. Let them earn a job.

You bring up teams at much different points in their development cycle than us.

There's numerous other examples... not gonna put the time in.

 

[AustonsNostrils]

Jeff Skinner is 200 pounds at 5'11" - surprising, he doesn't look that thick. oh that makes me sound old, *thicc

 

[Gabrielor]

Jeff Skinner is 200 pounds at 5'11" - surprising, he doesn't look that thick. oh that makes me sound old, *thicc

Really like that Pekar is going to be there for the experience of it. That kid had an under the radar solid prospects tourny. Still real raw, but has that desire.

 

[BuffaloGooner]

Jeff Skinner is 200 pounds at 5'11" - surprising, he doesn't look that thick. oh that makes me sound old, *thicc

Casey is 209? Dudes gotta have the biggest tree trunk legs imaginable

 

[Jame]

Not buying out Pominville at the cost of 1.7 in dead space in 2019-20, looks absolutely moronic right now

 

[sabrebuild]

Not buying out Pominville at the cost of 1.7 in dead space in 2019-20, looks absolutely moronic right now

Maybe you just don’t know how pommers is in the best shape of his life and ready to take the league by storm...

 

[MayDayMayDay]

I expect Pommers to be dealt at the deadline and a young gun breaks out for that spot. Gut feeling that it just clicks for Baptiste this year.

 

[tsujimoto74]

I forgot we have another year of Beaulieu until looking at the training camp roster.

 

[Yultron]

In many ways.... the best value our bottom 6 brings is in being the players that the Rochester group has to beat... veteran NHLers.

I hated the way we brought Grigo, Girgs, Risto, Zads, etc.... they didn't have to win jobs, they just had to show up. People talk about rushing them... It's not rushing them that screws up development, it's the lack of true competition, and earning the job that screws it up.

But I also hate treating low end vets the same way... they should have to win jobs to.

It's been nearly a decade of talking about needing "more compete".... guess how you get there? By creating a culture of competition, and sticking to it.

If Botts goes about this the right way, then his collection of castoffs is less repulsive to me...

I totally remember that, And I remember Rolston saying that Zadorov needs to try harder. The guy was 18 playing against Men and was nowhere close to being ready. That was a dark time to be a Sabres fan but it didn't really get better until now and now we are on the right track with Botterill leading the charge. Housley is still a maybe for me

 

[CatsforReinhart]

I totally remember that, And I remember Rolston saying that Zadorov needs to try harder. The guy was 18 playing against Men and was nowhere close to being ready. That was a dark time to be a Sabres fan but it didn't really get better until now and now we are on the right track with Botterill leading the charge. Housley is still a maybe for me

Botts put this team on the right track and after this season with all the draft picks the future looks bright. I am happy to turn the page on Murray he was trash.

 

[Yultron]

Botts put this team on the right track and after this season with all the draft picks the future looks bright. I am happy to turn the page on Murray he was trash.

Got that right, The only good thing Murray did for us was getting Eichel and a few other exceptions but then he really damaged this team by a plan that authorized and hoped for losing. The one season it was ok with Eichel but after that it really affected this team in a big way as we have struggled in close games, the players habits are bad and they don't know what to do in certain situations. And a few weeks before Kim and Terry fired him at the end of the season press conference he had no idea what too do and looked defeated by the losing and didn't have a plan. Botterill has a plan in place and a plan I really like. Like one of the things I really like and I know some people won't like it is how he drafts. He is very much like Kevin Cheveldayoff in Winnipeg. Meaning he is a draft and develop type of GM and doesn't give up on players. I was surprised at first how he didn't draft a single player from the CHL the last two years but his answer as too why he didn't was perfect with how in the mid - late rounds you never know with them so he wants to be able to control them longer and develop them for 4 years opposed too two. At first I was surprised but I absolutely love it on how he wants to bring the players along slowly and let them develop at there own pace opposed to rushing them and it really clarified as too why he didn't bring back Estephen, Hagel, Budik etc who were all CHL players but also because they were Murrays players and not his. Oloffson is a perfect example of this and look what 4 years of development did for him as he lead the SHL in goals last season and looks outstanding. This team is very much Botterills team now and his philosophy and vision are very much in place for this team to be successful for a very long time with an outstanding core of Eichel, Dahlin, Middlestadt, Reinhart, Ristolanin, Guhle, Nylander, Thompson, Asplund etc. Not to mention we still have Samuelsson, Laaksonen, Luukonen, Davidsson, Pekar etc behind them and 3 1st round picks next season.

I am so excited as the future is now

 

[sabrebuild]

Got that right, The only good thing Murray did for us was getting Eichel and a few other exceptions but then he really damaged this team by a plan that authorized and hoped for losing. The one season it was ok with Eichel but after that it really affected this team in a big way as we have struggled in close games, the players habits are bad and they don't know what to do in certain situations. And a few weeks before Kim and Terry fired him at the end of the season press conference he had no idea what too do and looked defeated by the losing and didn't have a plan. Botterill has a plan in place and a plan I really like. Like one of the things I really like and I know some people won't like it is how he drafts. He is very much like Kevin Cheveldayoff in Winnipeg. Meaning he is a draft and develop type of GM and doesn't give up on players. I was surprised at first how he didn't draft a single player from the CHL the last two years but his answer as too why he didn't was perfect with how in the mid - late rounds you never know with them so he wants to be able to control them longer and develop them for 4 years opposed too two. At first I was surprised but I absolutely love it on how he wants to bring the players along slowly and let them develop at there own pace opposed to rushing them and it really clarified as too why he didn't bring back Estephen, Hagel, Budik etc who were all CHL players but also because they were Murrays players and not his. Oloffson is a perfect example of this and look what 4 years of development did for him as he lead the SHL in goals last season and looks outstanding. This team is very much Botterills team now and his philosophy and vision are very much in place for this team to be successful for a very long time with an outstanding core of Eichel, Dahlin, Middlestadt, Reinhart, Ristolanin, Guhle, Nylander, Thompson, Asplund etc. Not to mention we still have Samuelsson, Laaksonen, Luukonen, Davidsson, Pekar etc behind them and 3 1st round picks next season.

I am so excited as the future is now

This was something...

 

[TehDoak]

I've said, numerous times, the best 23 players for the right roles....

I'm not arguing for Nylander to play on a 4th line in a dzone start scenario.... but let's not forget that guys like Oglevie, Malone, and Smith are competing for jobs as well.



Asplund has been playing pro for years... same as Olofsson.
Nylander has been in the AHL for two years
Tage was playing in the NHL last year...

There is no year/games/league barrier to the NHL... every player is different. Let them earn a job.

You are correct, each player is at different experience levels. We'll see what camp brings, but I'd be surprised if we exposed more than 2 forwards to waivers. For me, for a player to make the club out of camp as a forward, two things have to happen.

1) It needs to be abundantly clear that this player is NHL ready and can step into the top 9 as a regular player. I can't think of a good forward analogy right now, but Myers comes to mind on the defensive side.
2) The player has to have little to learn at the AHL level. A player can be a stand out and still not be ready for the pro game. Whether its strength issue, maturity, etc.

We'll see at camp what happens, but I'm not expecting anyone meet that standard. We'll see I guess.

There's numerous other examples... not gonna put the time in.

We're at a unique point as a franchise right now. I'm trying to think of a franchise who really gutted the team like we did in '14-'15, tried to rebuild as aggressively as we did IMMEDIATELY after and failed, then pulled off the band aid and went again. I remember the Penguins tried to add a bunch of players around Crosby in 05 and failed badly.

The leafs didn't really "Tear down" that much. They had a bad season, sure, but they kept a decent-ish group of players around (Gardiner, Kadri, etc) to bridge the gap to the younger core (Nylander, Marner, Matthews). They actually had a worse year in 2015 than they did in 2016, but finished in 26th in 2015 and 30th in 2016. The Oilers had a few false starts on their rebuild, but certainly they are the cautionary tale of teams. Philly had a nightmare season is 06-07 and was super aggressive in rebuilding. But again, that was actually successful. I'm not sure we have a post lockout team to compare to., TBH.

 

[ZZamboni]

I’m trying to get my head around (according to some) Tim Murray sucked so bad and gutted the organization of descent prospects. That it would take several years to restock the pond with quality prospects.
And yet, in a year, the pond is stocked pretty well and our prospects depth is one of the best in the league.
I’m not talking about Dahlin, or Eichel which are obvious choices at the spot we drafted them.

So is it ....

Tim Murray didn’t gut as much as some like to make up in their over reactive minds?

Or JB has done a great job in restocking and creating depth in the organization and doesn’t suck as much as some want to believe?

Or is it something else?

 

[Djp]

In many ways.... the best value our bottom 6 brings is in being the players that the Rochester group has to beat... veteran NHLers.

I hated the way we brought Grigo, Girgs, Risto, Zads, etc.... they didn't have to win jobs, they just had to show up. People talk about rushing them... It's not rushing them that screws up development, it's the lack of true competition, and earning the job that screws it up.

But I also hate treating low end vets the same way... they should have to win jobs to.

It's been nearly a decade of talking about needing "more compete".... guess how you get there? By creating a culture of competition, and sticking to it.

If Botts goes about this the right way, then his collection of castoffs is less repulsive to me...

The problem is you can design competition without having a full roster of players who have to clear waivers thus forcing teams to send down exempt players from non exempt ones. Thus has been referred to slow cooking players which to me means keeping players down because the nhl roster is jammed.

 

[Yultron]

I’m trying to get my head around (according to some) Tim Murray sucked so bad and gutted the organization of descent prospects. That it would take several years to restock the pond with quality prospects.
And yet, in a year, the pond is stocked pretty well and our prospects depth is one of the best in the league.
I’m not talking about Dahlin, or Eichel which are obvious choices at the spot we drafted them.

So is it ....

Tim Murray didn’t gut as much as some like to make up in their over reactive minds?

Or JB has done a great job in restocking and creating depth in the organization and doesn’t suck as much as some want to believe?

Or is it something else?

A big reason as too why we have one of the best prospect pools in the NHL right now is, when Murray got fired we didn't have Rasmus Dahlin, we didn't have Casey Middlestadt that is one point right there,

Botterill has drafted very well in the last season bringing in those two along with Samuelsson, Davidsson, Luukkonen, Laaksonen, and Pekar considering we only had 12 picks the last two years,

Botterill has also traded for Tage Thompson who is a top 100 prospect, signed Lawrence Pilut who was the best defenseman in the SHL along with trading for Brandon Hickey who wasn't going to resign in Arizona but we got him to sign here,

Still in the system and who are Murray picks are Alex Nylander who is ready for a breakout season, Rasmus Aslpund is still here, Ullmark is still here and is ready for the NHL, and lets not forget how Olofsson took off this year and has really blossomed into one of our top prospects after having the season he has had.

You have a legit question but Botterill has kept all of our inventory minus Pu, added too our inventory by drafting well trading for a few young players , signing Pilut, developing the players we already had here in ways Murray couldn't (See Olofsson as a perfect example) and I believe Dahlin and Middlestadt were icing on the cake. yes we don't have a pick next season until I believe the 4th round after the first round but we have three 1st round picks and there is no way Botterill is trading any of them unless it's for a top young player who can help this organization long term. I highly doubt he trades any of the picks and keeps them, I can however see him trading back in the first round and picking up an additional 2nd or something

 

[OkimLom]

I’m trying to get my head around (according to some) Tim Murray sucked so bad and gutted the organization of descent prospects. That it would take several years to restock the pond with quality prospects.
And yet, in a year, the pond is stocked pretty well and our prospects depth is one of the best in the league.
I’m not talking about Dahlin, or Eichel which are obvious choices at the spot we drafted them.

So is it ....

Tim Murray didn’t gut as much as some like to make up in their over reactive minds?

Or JB has done a great job in restocking and creating depth in the organization and doesn’t suck as much as some want to believe?

Or is it something else?

Thing is, most of those that Murray traded away he restocked within two years. Traded McNabb away, drafted Borgen. Traded Zadorov away, drafted Guhle. Traded Pysyk, returned Kulikov. Traded away JT Compher, drafted Asplund and Pu. Traded away Armia, drafted Nylander, traded Lemieux and really didn’t fill this one in. Thats not to mention drafting more guys on top of that.

So the argument about Murray leaving us is bare in terms of prospects is ridiculous. What he took he put back for the most part.

 

[TehDoak]

Thing is, most of those that Murray traded away he restocked within two years. Traded McNabb away, drafted Borgen. Traded Zadorov away, drafted Guhle. Traded Pysyk, returned Kulikov. Traded away JT Compher, drafted Asplund and Pu. Traded away Armia, drafted Nylander, traded Lemieux and really didn’t fill this one in. Thats not to mention drafting more guys on top of that.

So the argument about Murray leaving us is bare in terms of prospects is ridiculous. What he took he put back for the most part.

Picks wise, I think he was net negative 1 1st round pick (he burned the pick that Darcy got for Vanek), The other 1st he traded he got in the Miller deal.

The area that the Tim Murray area hurt us the most was on Defense.

McNabb, Zadorov, Myers, Pysyk all out. He brought in Gorges, Kulikov and Bogosian.

That's a significant downgrade. And is one of the reasons our defense has been terribad for awhile.

 

[Sabre the Win]

I forgot we have another year of Beaulieu until looking at the training camp roster.

Hopefully Beaulieu doesnt even play, I just hope someone beats him out for a spot.

 

[OkimLom]

Picks wise, I think he was net negative 1 1st round pick (he burned the pick that Darcy got for Vanek), The other 1st he traded he got in the Miller deal.

The area that the Tim Murray area hurt us the most was on Defense.

McNabb, Zadorov, Myers, Pysyk all out. He brought in Gorges, Kulikov and Bogosian.

That's a significant downgrade. And is one of the reasons our defense has been terribad for awhile.

I think he used those firsts wisely in a team building aspect, not necessarily on the choices of players, but he had confidence in himself and believed Lehner would’ve been good. If you’re not going to use 1at picks drafting use them to fill a role with young guys, so you don’t have to worry about it down the road. IMO he did that with Kane and Lehner.

Yes, Gorges was brought in and so was Bogosian as was Kulikov. Gorges was brought in at a time when the team needed leadership, when Zadorov, McNabb, and Pysyk were not yet ready for full time starting 6 minutes. Bogosian was an alright defenseman that was a different version from Myers. Kulikov was already a young top 4 player on the left side. What do you think that costs? That’s right a decent to good prospect. Our decent to good prospect was Pysyk who had his limitations offensively who behind Bogo and Risto.

Unfortunately, because of the injuries that happened to two of those players, people just want to say Murray ruined us, when you look at the trades when they happened they are not bad moves.

To me the funniest aspect of the trade is how the Kane trade stacks up vs the ROR one. Both players traded because perceived locker room issues. Locked up multiple years. Both young.

Buffalo gave up a declining “promising” prospect in Armia who turned into a middle 6 player, a 1st round pick, another prospect, a soon to be UFA in Stafford, and people thought we lost the trade BIG time for a hard working top 6 player winger with term who was a goal scorer with some physical play

Yet, Buffalo gives up a 2C with longer term that was our 2nd(maybe best player) for a first round pick, a prospect, and two aging middle 6 players and Buffalo fans are fine with it and the kicker is that St Louis fans believe they came out on top of the trade.

So Winnipeg gives up the best player in the deal, and Buffalo supposedly loses, and Buffalo gives up the best player in the deal and St. Louis supposedly loses.

 

[Icicle]

I think he used those firsts wisely in a team building aspect, not necessarily on the choices of players, but he had confidence in himself and believed Lehner would’ve been good. If you’re not going to use 1at picks drafting use them to fill a role with young guys, so you don’t have to worry about it down the road. IMO he did that with Kane and Lehner.

Yes, Gorges was brought in and so was Bogosian as was Kulikov. Gorges was brought in at a time when the team needed leadership, when Zadorov, McNabb, and Pysyk were not yet ready for full time starting 6 minutes. Bogosian was an alright defenseman that was a different version from Myers. Kulikov was already a young top 4 player on the left side. What do you think that costs? That’s right a decent to good prospect. Our decent to good prospect was Pysyk who had his limitations offensively who behind Bogo and Risto.

Unfortunately, because of the injuries that happened to two of those players, people just want to say Murray ruined us, when you look at the trades when they happened they are not bad moves.

To me the funniest aspect of the trade is how the Kane trade stacks up vs the ROR one. Both players traded because perceived locker room issues. Locked up multiple years. Both young.

Buffalo gave up a declining “promising” prospect in Armia who turned into a middle 6 player, a 1st round pick, another prospect, a soon to be UFA in Stafford, and people thought we lost the trade BIG time for a hard working top 6 player winger with term who was a goal scorer with some physical play

Yet, Buffalo gives up a 2C with longer term that was our 2nd(maybe best player) for a first round pick, a prospect, and two aging middle 6 players and Buffalo fans are fine with it and the kicker is that St Louis fans believe they came out on top of the trade.

So Winnipeg gives up the best player in the deal, and Buffalo supposedly loses, and Buffalo gives up the best player in the deal and St. Louis supposedly loses.

None of Murray's moves were questionable IF the players he chose panned out. They all met big needs of the team and shipped-out what was a surplus at the time.

Problem was he missed on nearly every player. The only one he really can't be blamed on is the Kulikov board tailbone incident that derailed him. That was the rink's fault. And don't go telling me some 7th rounder he picked is evidence otherwise - if he knew that player was good he would've taken them in an earlier round. All those 2nd round misses killed us the last few years.

 

[Push Dr Tracksuit]

None of Murray's moves were questionable IF the players he chose panned out. They all met big needs of the team and shipped-out what was a surplus at the time.

Problem was he missed on nearly every player. The only one he really can't be blamed on is the Kulikov board tailbone incident that derailed him. That was the rink's fault. And don't go telling me some 7th rounder he picked is evidence otherwise - if he knew that player was good he would've taken them in an earlier round. All those 2nd round misses killed us the last few years.

Anyone here could have identified needs. We needed players at every position. He overpaid, targeted the wrong players, gave out bad contracts to bad players. Literally the only thing he did well was not grabbing 8 players who all played the same position.