Speculation: Roster Building Thread XLVIII: Draft day is a comin'

[haohmaru]

We aren't saying that these players should be traded because they are bad. We are saying that we don't have enough good players and in order to get more, we need to trade one or two good players for 3 or 4 players who will be good in the future.

That's Nash and possibly Kreider, not either of Brassard or Stepan.

 

[Trxjw]

What?

What do you mean, what?

And didn't you call Trevor Daley a "tumor" once?

 

[Bruner4329]

Agree - this fanbase was crying for years over how weak we were down the middle and, now, it's finally a point of strength and people want to deal that strength away because it looks sexy on paper. Brassard just had, arguably, his best year. Stepan is a solid 2 way center. Hayes can be a good 3C or, if he develops nicely, a 2C and Lindberg is no slouch at 4.

I think Nash is our best forward but I also think he's the asset we can most afford to lose and get something decent back for. Personally, i don't trade away strength down the middle, guys on excellent contracts (McD, Zooks, Klein), or developing RFA's (Miller).

Thank you for getting where I am coming from. The only point I have been trying to make is if you trade a Brassard or Stepan for that matter then we need a replacement. IMO no one else on the current roster is a first or second line center. Whether you agree as to if they are top line centers, they are the top line centers on this team and trading one creates a void.

 

[Trxjw]

Because if we trade Brassard we have one legit center. So who do you think other than Stepan is a center we can count on based on the current roster?

Why does he have to be on the current roster? All I see here is a narrow vision and a fear of going backwards.

 

[Raspewtin]

What do you mean, what?

And didn't you call Trevor Daley a "tumor" once?

I definitely called Trevor Daley a tumor and stand by it.

But Bonino and Kessel aren't bad possession players. They're not good either but they're about average relative to their teams.

Players I'd happily take considering Kessel is, well, Kessel and Bonino is super efficient at ES.

 

[GAGLine]

That's Nash and possibly Kreider, not either of Brassard or Stepan.

It's for whomever we get get the best return. If that means one of Stepan or Brassard are traded, so be it. We can target a young center in the deal or another deal.

 

[haohmaru]

It's for whomever we get get the best return. If that means one of Stepan or Brassard are traded, so be it. We can target a young center in the deal or another deal.

Different philosophies. I don't trade top 6 centers on decent contracts and hope some "young center" (WTF is Stepan if not a "young center") can fill their shoes - esp. Steps' 2 way game.

Nash? Kreider? Sure. I don't trade two guys on decent contracts with decent term for the crapshoot of a draft pick and a prospect.

 

[Bruner4329]

Why does he have to be on the current roster? All I see here is a narrow vision and a fear of going backwards.

I think you have a narrow vision. May not be on the current roster but again I was responding to a post where someone proposed a bunch of moves including Trading Brassard but no where in these moves was there mention of acquiring or replacing him with another center. In other words if you plan 5 or 6 moves as that thread did you can't leave a critical slot such as a first or second line center empty. Complete the puzzle. This is not fantasy hockey. You need to have a practical plan in place. I am not against making trades as some have proposed but when all the dominos land you still need to have players in certain positions.

 

[surf]

Why are people so eager to move Brass and Zucc is it just because they are close to 29? Brass is a proven playoff performer and Zucc is an animal with skill and heart..It seems to me these are guys you want to go into the future with

 

[Mac n Gs]

Scott Hartnell has agreed to waive his NMC. I wonder if a swap for Staal or G is a possibility

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

Why does he have to be on the current roster? All I see here is a narrow vision and a fear of going backwards.

This.

It's for whomever we get get the best return. If that means one of Stepan or Brassard are traded, so be it. We can target a young center in the deal or another deal.

And this.

Not being willing to move any of the really valuable pieces on this roster means only making window dressing moves. I don't think this current core can ever be a top team, and shuffling the players on the fringes isn't going to change that.

The Rangers need to make bold moves. The kind of moves I and Trxjw and GAGLine and others are all talking about very well could result in the team taking a step back next year or two. (Though, personally, I don't think it'll necessarily mean missing the playoffs or being painful to watch.) But I believe they're necessary if we ever want the team to be better than it currently is (and certainly if we want it to be good enough to win the Cup).

 

[haohmaru]

What do Stepan or Brassard get you that Nash or Kreider doesn't?

 

[haohmaru]

Scott Hartnell has agreed to waive his NMC. I wonder if a swap for Staal or G is a possibility

Is a 34 year old Hartnell with 3 years left on a 4.5M/per contract for Girardi or Staal something positive for us? I'm not sure. He's got a lot of physical mileage on that body. Not sure I'd do it

 

[glees68]

Scott Hartnell has agreed to waive his NMC. I wonder if a swap for Staal or G is a possibility

I could see Torts going for it. Staal is probably the most realistic of the two though.

 

[Beer League Sniper]

Scott Hartnell has agreed to waive his NMC. I wonder if a swap for Staal or G is a possibility

I would absolutely do that swap. Hell, I would even retain on Girardi (not Staal) if they want equivalent dollars.

 

[Machinehead]

2014 will be 3 seasons ago. It's kind of pathetic to be clinging on to the year the Rangers lost in the Cup final. They did not win. The goal is to win the Cup. Not be "competitive". This quick retool nonsense never works.

And rebuilds work?

 

[RangerBoy]

We aren't saying that these players should be traded because they are bad. We are saying that we don't have enough good players and in order to get more, we need to trade one or two good players for 3 or 4 players who will be good in the future.

Don't waste your time trying to explain it to that guy. He doesn't understand.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Why are people so eager to move Brass and Zucc is it just because they are close to 29? Brass is a proven playoff performer and Zucc is an animal with skill and heart..It seems to me these are guys you want to go into the future with

Probably because they have a ton of value right now and likely won't when the Rangers are ready to compete again.

 

[haohmaru]

Don't waste your time trying to explain it to that guy. He doesn't understand.

Yeah, because trading a 25 year old top 6 center for a "young center" makes a lot of sense. Not much to not "understand". Not trading Nash, and his 7.8M cap hit, makes more sense.

 

[GAGLine]

What do Stepan or Brassard get you that Nash or Kreider doesn't?

Nash is older and has a high cap hit that not many teams can take on. We can retain money, though, which will make it easier to trade him. He's coming off a down year so the return may not be as great as we might hope. Kreider isn't going to return multiple good pieces. Any deal for him would likely be a 1 for 1 hockey trade. His value is lower than both Stepan's and Brassard's.

Of all of the players on our roster other than McDonagh, I think Stepan would return the most. No one is saying that we should trade Stepan, but if the deal is too good to pass up, we should do it. We got 3 NHL players for Gaborik. All 3 of those players were on the team when we went to the cup finals a year later. Dorsett became Iverson via Vancouver and Moore helped us get Yandle, who will most likely be gone, but Brassard is still going strong.

Leading up to the trade, lots of people said you don't trade a 40 goal scorer. Would anyone take Gaborik for Brassard now?

 

[Trxjw]

I definitely called Trevor Daley a tumor and stand by it.

But Bonino and Kessel aren't bad possession players. They're not good either but they're about average relative to their teams.

Players I'd happily take considering Kessel is, well, Kessel and Bonino is super efficient at ES.

Which is really my point. The fact is that the Penguins made some moves that brought in some "not good" possession players or "tumors" for that matter, and yet here we are months later lauding them for their possession play.

Judging players on their individual possession stats isn't nearly as reliable as some people make it out to be. That's the crux of this entire argument people are having.

 

[Trxjw]

I think you have a narrow vision. May not be on the current roster but again I was responding to a post where someone proposed a bunch of moves including Trading Brassard but no where in these moves was there mention of acquiring or replacing him with another center. In other words if you plan 5 or 6 moves as that thread did you can't leave a critical slot such as a first or second line center empty. Complete the puzzle. This is not fantasy hockey. You need to have a practical plan in place. I am not against making trades as some have proposed but when all the dominos land you still need to have players in certain positions.

So I have the narrow vision because I realize trading Brassard doesn't mean the team has to have a perfect replacement or upgrade ready and raring to go? If you're hoping the Rangers are going to fix all of their problems in one off season, you're going to be sorely disappointed.

 

[haohmaru]

Nash is older and has a high cap hit that not many teams can take on. We can retain money, though, which will make it easier to trade him. He's coming off a down year so the return may not be as great as we might hope. Kreider isn't going to return multiple good pieces. Any deal for him would likely be a 1 for 1 hockey trade. His value is lower than both Stepan's and Brassard's.

Of all of the players on our roster other than McDonagh, I think Stepan would return the most. No one is saying that we should trade Stepan, but if the deal is too good to pass up, we should do it. We got 3 NHL players for Gaborik. All 3 of those players were on the team when we went to the cup finals a year later. Dorsett became Iverson via Vancouver and Moore helped us get Yandle, who will most likely be gone, but Brassard is still going strong.

Leading up to the trade, lots of people said you don't trade a 40 goal scorer. Would anyone take Gaborik for Brassard now?

I'm not sure that Nash's value is less than Brassard's or Stepan's, FWIW. By your own measure - look what Gaborik brought back and Nash is the better two way player and probably equal goal scorer. Cap hit is a drawback for sure.

And, yes, ANY deal for ANY player that's "too good to pass up" is fine with me. But, in realistic trade proposals, I don't see where trading Stepan, in particular, is going to be good for this team.

 

[Raspewtin]

Which is really my point. The fact is that the Penguins made some moves that brought in some "not good" possession players or "tumors" for that matter, and yet here we are months later lauding them for their possession play.

Kessel and Bonino are average, usually a tinge below average relative to their teams. Nobody in their right mind would come to the conclusion that those two would tank the Penguins' possession game.

Regardless, it's hard to be a bad possession team when your heavy minute eaters are all strong possesion players. Malkin, Kessel, Letang, Kunitz, Hornqvist, and Crosby all have pretty high relCF%. A 3rd liner like Bonino even being bad (which he isn't) is a blip on the radar. LA's bottom 6 the most of their contention was actually very poor but Kopitar/Carter/Doughty/Muzzin/Toffoli are such dominant possession players it didn't even matter.

Judging players on their individual possession stats isn't nearly as reliable as some people make it out to be. That's the crux of this entire argument people are having.

??? as if every team is stacked, head to toe, with great possession players?

I happily take both players considering how good they are at ES scoring.

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

Leading up to the trade, lots of people said you don't trade a 40 goal scorer. Would anyone take Gaborik for Brassard now?

Spot on