Speculation: Roster Building Thread XLIV - Off Season Edition

[Levitate]

http://nypost.com/2016/04/24/a-rangers-overhaul-will-require-a-changed-alain-vigneault/



http://nypost.com/2016/04/26/rangers-are-getting-a-shakeup-and-even-stars-are-worried/

Substantial. Overhaul. Transfusion of new and younger blood. Significant.

substantial overhaul will depend on whether they can move some of the contracts they have. Without moving Girardi or Staal or Nash etc then they're pretty limited by what they can do to change and trading a bunch of the 25+ guys to get "younger" is not my idea of a handy overhaul

The point about AV needing to coach a bit more is pretty spot on I think though. I feel like he leaned on his vets in a "you all know what you need to do" kind of way last year and it was a reason why things got so sloppy.

 

[GAGLine]

Put me in the "I'll believe it when I see it camp."

Dolan wants to make the playoffs. Whatever else the NY Post says he wants, he wants to make the playoffs. I don't believe for one second that Dolan will consciously put this team on a course that will lessen their chances of making the playoffs in the current or upcoming season.

Since when has Dolan ever interfered with the running of the team? Every year I hear about how ownership's mandate is to make the playoffs, but I've never seen one shred of proof that it is actually true.

If it is true, then management needs to grow a pair and manage the team the right way.

 

[mti79]

http://nypost.com/2016/05/14/yes-its-ok-to-blame-alex-ovechkin/

That is a fairly good and fairly young team. NY is an attractive market. We have a good management. That team don't have "it", but it would have a lot of cap space and be in a good position to make a run to get that "it" during the coming 12 months. Of this don't work out, you are in a good position to really start and an honest rebuild in 2-3 years. Do it the right way.

How do we have a lot of cap space? Not trying to be rude but I don't see it. You're losing Nash and Boyle (~12 million) and adding Radulov at 6 and Yandle at 7?

Yeah, you're trading Staal as well, but money could be coming back in that deal and you still need to resign Kreider, Miller, McIlrath.

I'm not opposed to what you're saying but not sure how the money works.

 

[Ghost of jas]

i'll believe it when i see it

Boyle, EStaal and Moore won't be back. If the Rangers move Nash and MStaal, and get back a couple of young players and a 1st, 2nd and 3rd round pick, wouldn't that be putting them on the exact path that Brooks is talking about? My two questions then become, 1) do they re-sign Yandle, and 2) what gets done about Girardi. I'd rather not buy him out, and if the coach hadn't shown a stubbornness in over-using him, I'd be content to keep him on the 3rd pair for a year as a placeholder, and then deal him when his NMC becomes a NTC.

 

[Chaels Arms]

Since when has Dolan ever interfered with the running of the team? Every year I hear about how ownership's mandate is to make the playoffs, but I've never seen one shred of proof that it is actually true.

If it is true, then management needs to grow a pair and manage the team the right way.

The article references Dolan saying he wants more youth. That may be true but I don't believe at all that anyone involved in managing this team (Gorton, Dolan, AV, whoever you want to use) are going to build towards the future if that means being a non-playoff team in the present.

 

[aufheben]

substantial overhaul will depend on whether they can move some of the contracts they have. Without moving Girardi or Staal or Nash etc then they're pretty limited by what they can do to change and trading a bunch of the 25+ guys to get "younger" is not my idea of a handy overhaul

The point about AV needing to coach a bit more is pretty spot on I think though. I feel like he leaned on his vets in a "you all know what you need to do" kind of way last year and it was a reason why things got so sloppy.

I'm not convinced that this team can't contend if they substituted Girardi for a real #2 defenseman; tall order, and unlikely? Yes, but I think people are reverting to the "next Flames" model a little quickly. Are they one-dimensional up front? Yes. They still score a lot of goals though. Idk, I don't see this as some irreparable situation.

 

[silverfish]

I'm not convinced that this team can't contend if they substituted Girardi for a real #2 defenseman; tall order, and unlikely? Yes, but I think people are reverting to the "next Flames" model a little quickly. Are they one-dimensional up front? Yes. They still score a lot of goals though. Idk, I don't see this as some irreparable situation.

Despite very rarely having the puck, our offense still finished 7th in the league. Five 20 goal scorers was 2nd in the league.

Like you suggest, perhaps if we have a defense more inclined in collecting the puck in our own end and moving it up ice, the offense will benefit.

It's this ideology that makes me believe the Rangers aren't in such dire straits as some here seem to believe. I've been told my opinion is wrong though, so, what do I know

 

[GAGLine]

I'm not convinced that this team can't contend if they substituted Girardi for a real #2 defenseman; tall order, and unlikely? Yes, but I think people are reverting to the "next Flames" model a little quickly. Are they one-dimensional up front? Yes. They still score a lot of goals though. Idk, I don't see this as some irreparable situation.

It's funny that you mention the Flames, because they spent years toiling in mediocrity when everyone said they should rebuild, stubbornly trying to tweak their lineup to make the playoffs. They didn't start doing better until they cleaned house. They took a step back last year, but the future is still brighter for them than it has been in some time.

It isn't just Girardi. Let's say we somehow get rid of Girardi without taking back salary, allowing us to replace him. Who are we signing? Take a look at the free agent dmen available. The list is pretty weak. Maybe we re-sign Yandle, but I don't see how that makes us better than last year. McIlrath and Skjei replacing Girardi and Boyle isn't going to make us contenders.

The bottom line is that there is more work to be done than we can accomplish in one offseason.

 

[DanielBrassard]

Replacing Girardi with Demers would be a huge improvement.

 

[Leetch3]

Boyle, EStaal and Moore won't be back. If the Rangers move Nash and MStaal, and get back a couple of young players and a 1st, 2nd and 3rd round pick, wouldn't that be putting them on the exact path that Brooks is talking about? My two questions then become, 1) do they re-sign Yandle, and 2) what gets done about Girardi. I'd rather not buy him out, and if the coach hadn't shown a stubbornness in over-using him, I'd be content to keep him on the 3rd pair for a year as a placeholder, and then deal him when his NMC becomes a NTC.

letting go ufas that you can't afford to sign because you have zero cap space isn't making a decision to get younger...as for moving guys like nash, staal or girardi. i'll believe it when i see it.

imo its far more likely that those guys will still be here with the storyline being that they had played so many games the last few years and the long summer has made them like new again...

 

[GAGLine]

Replacing Girardi with Demers would be a huge improvement.

So, find a way to trade Girardi, who has an NMC, without bringing salary back. Sign Demers, lose Yandle.

That makes us better how?

 

[Lindberg Cheese]

Not quite sure if folks are using the same definitions of rebuild/retool, prob some overlap. Anyway whatever you call trying to move Nash, Girardi, Staal and maybe 1-2 others for picks/controllable young players, make a couple of shrewd signings, manage against the expansion draft, then sign me up. I would tend to call that a retool. Oh yeah and moving Glass.

 

[aufheben]

It's funny that you mention the Flames, because they spent years toiling in mediocrity when everyone said they should rebuild, stubbornly trying to tweak their lineup to make the playoffs. They didn't start doing better until they cleaned house. They took a step back last year, but the future is still brighter for them than it has been in some time.

It isn't just Girardi. Let's say we somehow get rid of Girardi without taking back salary, allowing us to replace him. Who are we signing? Take a look at the free agent dmen available. The list is pretty weak. Maybe we re-sign Yandle, but I don't see how that makes us better than last year. McIlrath and Skjei replacing Girardi and Boyle isn't going to make us contenders.

The bottom line is that there is more work to be done than we can accomplish in one offseason.

I mean...it's not that funny, because, like most things, I stole it from here.

Just my opinion. Tbh, I don't think anything being talked about here is realistic but "it is what it is".

But, uh, just for discussion, the Flames were a lot worse.

 

[GAGLine]

I mean...it's not that funny, because, like most things, I stole it from here.

Just my opinion. Tbh, I don't think anything being talked about here is realistic but "it is what it is".

But, uh, just for discussion, the Flames were a lot worse.

They were worse. They were missing the playoffs year after year, but not bad enough to get a high draft pick. That's something I want to avoid. We've been there and done that already.

 

[RangerBoy]

They were worse. They were missing the playoffs year after year, but not bad enough to get a high draft pick. That's something I want to avoid. We've been there and done that already.

The Flames missed the playoffs for five straight seasons. They traded a #1 in 2010 for Olli Jokinen figuring the team had another run. Sounds familiar. They didn't draft well with their picks in 2011 and 2012.

20/20 hindsight. Sather should have tanked the 2002-03 and 03-04 seasons. Everyone knew the NHL was headed for a war in the NHLPA after 03-04. The Rangers were horrible. He signed Holik and Kaspairits after trading for Lindros and Bure. Sather brought back Rucinsky. He traded Dvorak for Carter and then traded Carter for Jagr. At the trading deadline in 2004,it finally hit Sather that it wasn't working. It was too late to be bad enough for a shot at one of the top two picks. 2004 was the OV and Malkin draft. Imagine the Rangers coming out of the 2005 lockout with one of those players and Lundqvist. The Rangers would have won at least one Cup by now. Instead it was all of the big name older players like Jagr. He was gone after three seasons. The 2003 draft was loaded. Some teams such as the Flyers set themselves with Richards and Carter. They acquired Carter with a 1st from Phoenix for Daymond Longbow.

The Rangers missed the playoffs for 7 straight years with nothing to show for it with their first rounders.

 

[Bluenote13]

The Flames missed the playoffs for five straight seasons. They traded a #1 in 2010 for Olli Jokinen figuring the team had another run. Sounds familiar. They didn't draft well with their picks in 2011 and 2012.

20/20 hindsight. Sather should have tanked the 2002-03 and 03-04 seasons. Everyone knew the NHL was headed for a war in the NHLPA after 03-04. The Rangers were horrible. He signed Holik and Kaspairits after trading for Lindros and Bure. Sather brought back Rucinsky. He traded Dvorak for Carter and then traded Carter for Jagr. At the trading deadline in 2004,it finally hit Sather that it wasn't working. It was too late to be bad enough for a shot at one of the top two picks. 2004 was the OV and Malkin draft. Imagine the Rangers coming out of the 2005 lockout with one of those players and Lundqvist. The Rangers would have won at least one Cup by now. Instead it was all of the big name older players like Jagr. He was gone after three seasons. The 2003 draft was loaded. Some teams such as the Flyers set themselves with Richards and Carter. They acquired Carter with a 1st from Phoenix for Daymond Longbow.

The Rangers missed the playoffs for 7 straight years with nothing to show for it with their first rounders.

Absolutely. We are are still paying for the organization's ineptness during those non-playoff years. Fact was everyone outside the organization knew it was time to start over, but Sather pressed on.

 

[Leetch3]

The Flames missed the playoffs for five straight seasons. They traded a #1 in 2010 for Olli Jokinen figuring the team had another run. Sounds familiar. They didn't draft well with their picks in 2011 and 2012.

20/20 hindsight. Sather should have tanked the 2002-03 and 03-04 seasons. Everyone knew the NHL was headed for a war in the NHLPA after 03-04. The Rangers were horrible. He signed Holik and Kaspairits after trading for Lindros and Bure. Sather brought back Rucinsky. He traded Dvorak for Carter and then traded Carter for Jagr. At the trading deadline in 2004,it finally hit Sather that it wasn't working. It was too late to be bad enough for a shot at one of the top two picks. 2004 was the OV and Malkin draft. Imagine the Rangers coming out of the 2005 lockout with one of those players and Lundqvist. The Rangers would have won at least one Cup by now. Instead it was all of the big name older players like Jagr. He was gone after three seasons. The 2003 draft was loaded. Some teams such as the Flyers set themselves with Richards and Carter. They acquired Carter with a 1st from Phoenix for Daymond Longbow.

The Rangers missed the playoffs for 7 straight years with nothing to show for it with their first rounders.

it would be 20/20 hindsight to say we should have rebuilt after 97/98...by the time 2002 rolled around and we had missed the playoffs 5 straight years, it was obvious to anyone except msg management that it needed to be done. i don't think the 20/20 hindsight disclaimer is needed

 

[UAGoalieGuy]

I think Girardi is here for one more season. I think if he has another year like this one he will see the writing is on the wall. He retires and gets a front office job somewhere in the organization.

I think it is very realistic Staal (with $1 to $1.7 retained) and Nash (With $1.8 to $2.8 retained) are moved for pretty good packages, with Nash garnering a larger return then Staal. I think they get back a Nuke or Mantha type player in the trades taken as a whole with some high picks as well.

I think they being back Stalberg for around $1.5 for two years. He take a bit less for the extra year.

I think they being in Riley Nash or Jamie McGinn for about the same money is Stalberg.

Lindberg likely will not be ready to return until December more then likely.

I think Jensen and Hrivik battle it out for a roster spot.

I think Yandle comes back at around $6.5 million.

I also think if they get blown away by an offer for Brassard he gets moved.

 

[Ghost of jas]

The Flames missed the playoffs for five straight seasons. They traded a #1 in 2010 for Olli Jokinen figuring the team had another run. Sounds familiar. They didn't draft well with their picks in 2011 and 2012.

20/20 hindsight. Sather should have tanked the 2002-03 and 03-04 seasons. Everyone knew the NHL was headed for a war in the NHLPA after 03-04. The Rangers were horrible. He signed Holik and Kaspairits after trading for Lindros and Bure. Sather brought back Rucinsky. He traded Dvorak for Carter and then traded Carter for Jagr. At the trading deadline in 2004,it finally hit Sather that it wasn't working. It was too late to be bad enough for a shot at one of the top two picks. 2004 was the OV and Malkin draft. Imagine the Rangers coming out of the 2005 lockout with one of those players and Lundqvist. The Rangers would have won at least one Cup by now. Instead it was all of the big name older players like Jagr. He was gone after three seasons. The 2003 draft was loaded. Some teams such as the Flyers set themselves with Richards and Carter. They acquired Carter with a 1st from Phoenix for Daymond Longbow.

The Rangers missed the playoffs for 7 straight years with nothing to show for it with their first rounders.

Yes, life as a Ranger fan would been a lot sweeter if they drafted Getzlaf, Stafford and Green instead of Jessiman, Montoya and Korpikoski. Don Maloney ran those drafts...I'm pretty sure a bunch of Ranger fans wanted him to take over for Sather.

 

[Mac n Gs]

If Brandon Pirri slips through the cracks somehow, I'd like to give him a shot. With Lindberg out, we'll need a depth scoring option for the 3rd line

 

[kovazub94]

Boyle, EStaal and Moore won't be back. If the Rangers move Nash and MStaal, and get back a couple of young players and a 1st, 2nd and 3rd round pick, wouldn't that be putting them on the exact path that Brooks is talking about? My two questions then become, 1) do they re-sign Yandle, and 2) what gets done about Girardi. I'd rather not buy him out, and if the coach hadn't shown a stubbornness in over-using him, I'd be content to keep him on the 3rd pair for a year as a placeholder, and then deal him when his NMC becomes a NTC.

This board and front office via Brooks have a different idea of what a "significant" youth movement looks like. Most here for some reason ignore that there will be a "natural" youth movement because these three won't be back. Two more from the elder group and to me it a significant youth movement.

Re. keeping G to play on a third, it is risky because he could easily wind up higher just "because it's a right thing to do". Kline is not good to be on the first pair (but perfectly fine for the second) so I'd rather keep Staal behind McD and hopefufully Skjei and maybe someone else and open a spot on the right in front of Kline and McI. Obviously if there are somewhat reasonably close trade options available for each Staal and Girardi.

 

[trilobyte]

I mean...it's not that funny, because, like most things, I stole it from here.

Just my opinion. Tbh, I don't think anything being talked about here is realistic but "it is what it is".

But, uh, just for discussion, the Flames were a lot worse.

A season is a long time. The 2014-2015 season was not really a bad thing, because it was at least a discovery of what they had.
The recent 2015-2016 season was really time ill-spent. They did not backfill for the loss of Jiri Hudler. Any manager that does not identify the need to retain certain roles like that is missing something important.
Goaltending has been a big question mark for the Flames. The ultra-platooning strategy just looked to me like an avoidance of making a decision.

 

[kovazub94]

Brodeur was able to get his Devils into SCF when he was well over the hill. On that team was supported by Kovalchuk and Parisi and depth. The point is that Lundqvist could definitely find within himself another 2-3 deep play-off runs with just a reasonably good roster. A roster that's possible via retool, not rebuild.

 

[Chaels Arms]

To me, letting go of Boyle, EStaal and Moore isn't a youth movement, it's just obvious. None of those players are that good anymore and we have adequate replacements who are cheaper already on the roster.

Same with trading Nash, Staal or Girardi. If all three of those guys get moved then maybe that'll mean something but this is just more obvious stuff.

Here's what to me, signifies a real rebuild is coming:
1. Don't resign Yandle. I love the guy and have advocated for keeping him but if the team is going to rebuild then it better be done right. If Yandle is resigned that should end this debate instantly. We're win now if we give him a big contract.
2. Shop players that other teams actually want. I'm talking Stepan, Brassard, Zuke, Klein. Trading two of those guys would go a long way towards rebuilding the system, especially if they're moved to a bad team and we get some firsts back.

Just moving out players we don't want anymore isn't a rebuild.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Real change from this team will come from the likes of Nash, Staal, Girardi, Brass, Hank, Zucc, McD, Klein, Stepan, Kreids not being on the team next year. Those are the guys with the big contracts who will make waves in the news as notable subtractions.

You can accomplish getting younger by not re-signing Boyle, Moore, Stalberg, Yandle and replacing them with guys who are in their early 20's, but is that a productive younger that fixes the real problems with the team? I don't think it actually does much in terms of improving as a team, I think it just sells to the casual fans who don't really know much that the team has made a productive change. The productive change will come from the big names leaving, and I think we all agree on that, but there's a chance Gorton doesn't try to do that, and relies on being able to spin to the casual fans through the media that they have made changes by getting younger.

What there isn't agreement on from the non-casuals is whether that needs to be all the big names and a full rebuild or two or three who are perceived to be the main problems and a re-tool.