Salary Cap: Roster-building thread Part XXXVII : Why can't we always play like that?

[deakka]

The probloem is that as son as we are healthy and considered serious contenders, we play lika a bunch of divas and expects to just steam roll everyone without effort.

On the other hand, as soon as we are wounded and underdogs the team play their freaking hearts out.

Say what you want about this playoff serier, but its not heart, effort and passion we lack.

If we only could somehow playthe same way while healty.....

 

[billybudd]

Whether the Penguins want to admit they aren't in a position to be a competitor next season, it's where they are.

The lack of transition game is a huge problem that should fix itself, as long as Scuderi is bought out.

The lack of speed, quickness, muscle, toughness or finish at wing is a separate, huge problem that there are no easy answers for. Outside of Hornqvist, Dupuis and Comeau, the players they have access to that can do even one of those things (in our case, just Winnik, Perron, Megna and Downie), are horribly flawed in some other respect. And Dupuis is old and has played about 40 games in the past two years. Looked great in the fall. Will he look the same after another year off? Maybe, but I wouldn't bet my house on it. Kapanen, I'd very much like to bring along at Nyquist's pace.

I'd be interested in seeing what Comeau wants, but it's not wise to type him into any rosters in indelible ink. He's a competitive, sandpapery guy with a big (if telegraphed) shot who's well-rounded and plays the right way.

But be aware that the last time he was coming off a "good" season, he was an extremely difficult re-sign who ended up making so much more than then-market value that Garth Snow was unable to trade him for a 7th round pick. We got a bargain on him once. He brought much more than we paid him to bring. I'm not positive he'll be cost-effective twice, due more to expected cost than expected effectiveness.


Beyond him, there aren't any answers in free agency. NHL free agency, at least. Fehr's a pretty good player who's going to be skittish about leaving the Capitals. Last time he did that, he was nearly run out of the NHL. Beleskey, to me, seems like a dude who's just having a big year just prior to free agency. Bergenheim is someone people have been looking at and thinking he could contribute in a top six capacity for a decade now. He never has. From there, it just gets worse.

Whether they want to acknowledge it, Penguins are in Hail Mary territory when it comes to fixing the forward group. What they need, they neither have, nor can they acquire it through any conventional methods (UFA, trades, internally). Sutter should get you something nice, but not game-changing (unless the Leafs lose their minds and trade Kessel for him straight up). Maybe you could get a Kassian or an Etem when you trade Bennett, but after the latter's work in the last two seasons, I doubt it. You would need to find a club with a center who can't distribute the puck who also blindly subscribe to corsi--and look at little else--to generate interest in him.

The Penguins' best bet would be to look at Europe and in College and hope to find players who slipped through the cracks. It's not probable the Pens would bat 1.000. Black Label had some ideas. Don't know about most of them, but Anton Hedman is worth looking at for the fourth line, in my opinion. Panarin and Tikhonov are two other guys it might make sense to roll the dice on. Tikhonov and Sundqvist can, at least theoretically, form the basis for a credible 3rd line. Panarin has the profile of a type of player who could mesh with Malkin, if he can adapt to the clutching and grabbing in the NHL (a big if).

Meanwhile Florida has practically everything they need to be a contender--not a playoff team--a contender, without adding anything they don't already have. Columbus is not far behind. Even if the wings fall out of playoff contention (and they're the only playoff club that -might- get worse other than us), squeaking into a wild card slot will be Hell next season.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

oh, them actually doing it is a completely different story. But this roster is not far from being really freaking good if handled correctly.

IMO, this is the worst roster we've had since winning the Cup. In fact, it's the worst roster since we first started winning regularly in '06-07. Now, that doesn't mean your statement is wrong, just that we've seen this movie before...over and over again.

We have gone as far as we can go with this nucleus, imo.

I don't want to see Kapanen with the big club next year or frankly, the year after. He's our one prospect at forward, I don't want them destroying his development because they were too stupid to find a single winger in 8 years.

That's a fair point, but on the other hand the last thing we should do is NOT give a young player an opportunity and hold him back just because we're afraid of ruining him. Because holding young players back is what we've always done since the Crosby/Malkin era began...aside from the very top of the roster (Crosby, Malkin, Staal, Letang, Maatta, Fleury).

What might be a good thing for next season is to hold onto Bennett and keep that one roster spot open for competition to see if one of the younger guys like Kapanen, Wilson, Rust, maybe others can take Bennett's job. Basically, instead of the usual Bennett versus a veteran, have that spot go to a young player...Bennett or younger.

Because I have a funny feeling if we were to push Bennett that way, and have him compete with players younger than him, then we might see the very best of Bennett all the time. Provided he is given the opportunity to defend his roster spot, I think he'll shine.

 

[rkhum]

Does Kris Letang have trade value, because I would love to get rid of him.
We don't need to deal Malkin, but we can't keep thinking our core of Geno/Sid/Letang is going to somehow stay healthy.

The Pens problem isn't that you can't pay Crosby and Malkin.
It's that you can't pay 3 players over 7 million, with two of them being chronically hurt, and have no forward youth depth.
You deal Letang, you cut the top heavy salary risk and get young forward depth.

 

[Coastal Kev]

May I ask a question. Is this thread about Roster moves we would like to see them make or is it what we expect them to make????


Because I see a ton of good suggestions in this thread. Then I realize the decision makers are the same guys who made the Despres trade.

SO if the thread is about what moves are the Pens most likely to make, you guys are way, way off.

 

[rkhum]

May I ask a question. Is this thread about Roster moves we would like to see them make or is it what we expect them to make????


Because I see a ton of good suggestions in this thread. Then I realize the decision makers are the same guys who made the Despres trade.

SO if the thread is about what moves are the Pens most likely to make, you guys are way, way off.

I disagree with the characterization of the Despres trade.



Maybe, the Pens felt:
-They like Po/Demoulin/Harrington and Maata better as their young d.
-You need some vet depth, and they see Lovejoy being that guy next year as we shed Ehroff, Scuderi, and possibly Paul Martin.
-Two different coaching staffs lost faith in Sespres
-Just because somebody was a 1st rounder doesn't mean six years later when they've yet to establish themselves as a consistent top four, they have higher trade value.

 

[rkhum]

Whether the Penguins want to admit they aren't in a position to be a competitor next season, it's where they are.

.

Disagree.
First I feel I need to correct a few misconceptions:

1). The Pens problem is not that "You can't afford two superstar salaries."
There problem is their core hasn't been healthy or consistent.
-Malkin is chronically hurt
-Letang is chronically hurt.

You can't have three players taking up over $24 million in cap space with two of them hurt or not producing.

2). The Pens problem is Malkin and Letang are tying up too much salary for chronically I Jared stars and they have absolutely NO youth forward depth.

3). Fleury is fine. He hasn't cost the Pens a cup. He had a few bad bad playoffs but he's been solid, and is paid the league average. He is a very good value and the least of their issues.

Second, let's talk solutions.

1). Please deal Letang. He takes up too much salary for a guy who is injured and not a shutdown defender or PPQB. We have many young puck movers, give them a chance and get that hungry, youth, depth needed at forward.

2). Keep Geno. He's a superstar that needs to stay healthy, and can be an MVP. Protect against his risk with more forward depth. His risk is worth the reward.

3). Get rid of the following:
-Kunitz/Dupuis/Downie/Bennet/Ehroff/Scuderi

-Kunitz has trade value, he and Dupuis are old, either injury prone or washed up, and the locker room needs a shake up.
-Bennett can be dealt
-Scuds can be dealt or bought out
-Ehroff and Downie are FAx

4) On the fence about:
-Martin/Comeau/Spalding

-Only re sign Comeau to a cheap deal as a bottom six, not top six.
-Spalding takes up 2 million, he's ok but if they need space they can get a replacement cheaper

5) Re-sign Winnick, Sutter, and Greiss. Good depth players.

6). Do NOT TRADE ANY MORE DRAFT PICKS and DRAFT FORWRDS PLEASE!!!!

7) Acquire draft picks/young forwards who are improving.
-The next Dupuis and Kunitz ate out there, no need to keep the same two.

8) Get a smart vet. At a good deal.
-Need the next Guerin type who can put them in their place

It's not closed at all, just requires some re-tooling and patience. They may transition for a year or so, be patient.

 

[Coastal Kev]

I disagree with the characterization of the Despres trade.



Maybe, the Pens felt:
-They like Po/Demoulin/Harrington and Maata better as their young d.
-You need some vet depth, and they see Lovejoy being that guy next year as we shed Ehroff, Scuderi, and possibly Paul Martin.
-Two different coaching staffs lost faith in Sespres
-Just because somebody was a 1st rounder doesn't mean six years later when they've yet to establish themselves as a consistent top four, they have higher trade value.

Yea, you posted this in another thread and I answered you.

 

[Shady Machine]

I disagree with the characterization of the Despres trade.



Maybe, the Pens felt:
-They like Po/Demoulin/Harrington and Maata better as their young d.
-You need some vet depth, and they see Lovejoy being that guy next year as we shed Ehroff, Scuderi, and possibly Paul Martin.
-Two different coaching staffs lost faith in Sespres
-Just because somebody was a 1st rounder doesn't mean six years later when they've yet to establish themselves as a consistent top four, they have higher trade value.

Well their thoughts have been proven wrong already. So there's that.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

Just saw that Lapierre can play center or wing. Would definitely like to re-sign him.

Lapierre-Sundqvist-Megna would be a nice 4th line.

Or maybe I'm drunk.

 

[MrBurghundy]

Just saw that Lapierre can play center or wing. Would definitely like to re-sign him.

Lapierre-Sundqvist-Megna would be a nice 4th line.

Or maybe I'm drunk.

I'll endorse your drunken idea.

 

[Nakawick]

Lots of things to ponder this off season. I think they will start fairly quickly in regards to GM and possibly coach. I don't think MJ did a bad job and I don't know if Babcock is realistic or not, but if he leaves Detroit I have to think it is either for Edmonton or us. If he comes here I would give him as much input as he wants.

Letangs health going forward is a big concern. He could be one more hit/injury away from calling it a career. We do have some young D that can fill roles going forward. Cole was a nice addition, hopefully he comes at a friendly price. Really too bad about the Despres trade. Not to beat a dead horse, although I think that move may have cost Rutherford his job. However, the past is history and we can't change that. If we can't somehow package Scuds to a rebuilding team, we have no choice but to buy him out or bury him in WBS. Martin and Erhoff are probably done with us. Maybe we resign one if the price and term is right. Lovejoy is cheap for one more year. Will have to sign at least one FA on D and move the kids up.

Tanger Maatta
Cole XX
Pouliot XX
Lovejoy/Dumo/Harrington

Dups missing a season will probably hurt his play. He and Kunitz will be overpaid, although they are both still NHL players. Don't like Spalling for the price he comes with but don't see how we can get him off the roster short of a trade. Horny is gold. Hopefully Perron just played his worst 6 weeks of hockey in a Pens uniform, but he just seems too slow. I would sign Lappy for the right price, maybe Comeau. Adams, Winnik and Downie are done. Bennett can go too. It would be nice to see if Kapanen and Sundqvist can make the roster and do well as rookies. Not much out there in FA land. I might take a shot on Chris Stewart or Derrick Roy for a short and cheap contract. Other wise work with what we have and see where we are in January.

There could be a trade out there, maybe we can find a rebuilding team that we can dump a couple of contracts on, but we would likely be taking back salary too. I wish there was some way that we could trade some junk for a winger that can score. Free agency is pretty thin, not much out there.

 

[billybudd]

Disagree.
First I feel I need to correct a few misconceptions:

1). The Pens problem is not that "You can't afford two superstar salaries."
There problem is their core hasn't been healthy or consistent.
-Malkin is chronically hurt
-Letang is chronically hurt.

You can't have three players taking up over $24 million in cap space with two of them hurt or not producing.

2). The Pens problem is Malkin and Letang are tying up too much salary for chronically I Jared stars and they have absolutely NO youth forward depth.

3). Fleury is fine. He hasn't cost the Pens a cup. He had a few bad bad playoffs but he's been solid, and is paid the league average. He is a very good value and the least of their issues.

Second, let's talk solutions.

1). Please deal Letang. He takes up too much salary for a guy who is injured and not a shutdown defender or PPQB. We have many young puck movers, give them a chance and get that hungry, youth, depth needed at forward.

2). Keep Geno. He's a superstar that needs to stay healthy, and can be an MVP. Protect against his risk with more forward depth. His risk is worth the reward.

3). Get rid of the following:
-Kunitz/Dupuis/Downie/Bennet/Ehroff/Scuderi

-Kunitz has trade value, he and Dupuis are old, either injury prone or washed up, and the locker room needs a shake up.
-Bennett can be dealt
-Scuds can be dealt or bought out
-Ehroff and Downie are FAx

4) On the fence about:
-Martin/Comeau/Spalding

-Only re sign Comeau to a cheap deal as a bottom six, not top six.
-Spalding takes up 2 million, he's ok but if they need space they can get a replacement cheaper

5) Re-sign Winnick, Sutter, and Greiss. Good depth players.

6). Do NOT TRADE ANY MORE DRAFT PICKS and DRAFT FORWRDS PLEASE!!!!

7) Acquire draft picks/young forwards who are improving.
-The next Dupuis and Kunitz ate out there, no need to keep the same two.

8) Get a smart vet. At a good deal.
-Need the next Guerin type who can put them in their place

It's not closed at all, just requires some re-tooling and patience. They may transition for a year or so, be patient.

Winnik is ****ing terrible. Re-signing him to a multiyear, multimillion dollar deal would be practically as bad as trading a 2nd round pick and better player to acquire him.

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

this sucks typing on the phone but to billybudd: I totally agree about belesky. He seems like the power forward version of Winnik. Best guy available at what he does, but only by default and therefore a reach. I wouldn't want to give him enough term to get him so I'd stay away

 

[Sh00terMcGavin]

I'm still holding out hope that Perron gets it going again next season. The guy has obvious offensive talent, just need to see it (much) more consistently.

Avoiding dumb mistakes like turnovers would be nice too...

 

[BigBenSF*]

Winnik is ****ing terrible. Re-signing him to a multiyear, multimillion dollar deal would be practically as bad as trading a 2nd round pick and better player to acquire him.

Winnik is actually pretty good for a 3rd/4th line role. But this was a guy who went unsigned for a pretty long time last July. Maybe we should let him go and try to find a player like him for a million cheaper.

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

Winnik is actually pretty good for a 3rd/4th line role. But this was a guy who went unsigned for a pretty long time last July. Maybe we should let him go and try to find a player like him for a million cheaper.

I don't want Winnik back but you really do have to question the coaches when he was a +15 on an awful team and was basically crap once he came here. Maybe it was 100% making him play above his pay grade, but I don't think that could've been all of it

 

[billybudd]

Winnik is actually pretty good for a 3rd/4th line role. But this was a guy who went unsigned for a pretty long time last July. Maybe we should let him go and try to find a player like him for a million cheaper.

He was in a 4th line role in this past series and he was the worst forward for either team.

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

I'd take a flier on Winnik. If we're going to cut Perron some slack we might as well with him, too. They gave up a lot to get him so taking a chance for two years at no more than $2 million (though preferably more like $1.5) would be fine by me.

 

[BigBenSF*]

He was in a 4th line role in this past series and he was the worst forward for either team.

He was in the top 6 for the first three games of the series.

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

I'd take a flier on Winnik. If we're going to cut Perron some slack we might as well with him, too. They gave up a lot to get him so taking a chance for two years at no more than $2 million (though preferably more like $1.5) would be fine by me.

Honestly I don't know what to do anymore. Your logic is fine then I think, well he sucked here. Then I think, well the alternative is they'll bring someone else in and they'll probably suck here

 

[canadianguy77]

I'm still holding out hope that Perron gets it going again next season. The guy has obvious offensive talent, just need to see it (much) more consistently.

Avoiding dumb mistakes like turnovers would be nice too...

He has some serious skill...I just wonder about his hockey iq.

 

[BigBenSF*]

I don't want Winnik back but you really do have to question the coaches when he was a +15 on an awful team and was basically crap once he came here. Maybe it was 100% making him play above his pay grade, but I don't think that could've been all of it

+/- is 70% luck. It really shouldn't be used as a metric to evaluate a player.

Winnik still had decent possession numbers when he joined the Pens. I wouldn't pay more than 1.5, but he's still a good bottom 6 guy.

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

+/- is 70% luck. It really shouldn't be used as a metric to evaluate a player.

Winnik still had decent possession numbers when he joined the Pens. I wouldn't pay more than 1.5, but he's still a good bottom 6 guy.

It's not a be all end all, just a guide within certain contexts. If you're on a horrible team for 3/4 of a season and you leave a +15 it doesn't mean you're a great defensive player but it's enough to indicate you know what you're doing out there

 

[WayneSid9987]

The model franchise to copy right now is the Ducks.

Perry and Getzlaf, both 29. Brought in a proven 30 yr old playoff performer in Kesler and everyone else on thier roster aren't pluggers/vanilla players. They are filled with young talent(both big and small).

You obviously have to draft well but they've had:

22 - 1st and 2nd round picks since thier Cup win in '07. 31 1st to 3rd round picks.

The Pens have had 12 1st and 2nd's in that same span. 19 1st to 3rd round picks.

So how do you play catch up quickly? is the question.
And you don't really need to catch up at all positions. It's strictly F's. Their pipeline is pretty damn good right now for D-Men and the G positions.

First and foremost, going after a Panarin or players of his ilk in the near future should be a priority. Guys who are really good/skilled and can step in immediately are a huge plus.

They can also afford to trade another blue chip D-prospect for a F-prospect of equal value. LOL at trading one for a 31 yr old Ben Lovejoy.