Salary Cap: Roster-building thread Part XXXVII : Why can't we always play like that?

[Shady Machine]

Sutter has to be shopped. Even if they can get back a good third liner for him that is good on the boards and has some offensive abilities, I'd be happy with that. Assuming said player has a good contract and can take over Sutter's PK duties.

As I mentioned yesterday, there is no reason they can't pencil Sundqvist in as their third line pivot. The Rags did that with Hayes, and after a couple of months, he settled in nicely. I see no reason Sundqvist can't do the same.

I think having Sundqvist centering the third line is the first step to having a good puck possession line. Add in a big body with some offensive talent in a trade for Sutter, a guy like Rust, and your bottom six will be much more difficult to handle than the current crop, and cheaper as well.

That's how you start to build a good team from the bottom up.

Agreed. I've just assumed they are moving on from Bennett so I always figure they can package him to try and up the return. Hopefully they can get a top 6 winger from that package that the organization will tryst. I'd move Kunitz for whatever (likely a mid round pick?).

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I'd say you've missed our best play of the year despite having a completely wrecked defense.

Trading Malkin or Crosby would be stupid. Not just on the ice, but in the owners wallets. They aren't doing it.

Ya, Sundqvist needs to be on this team next year. I'd be happy to keep Laps for the 4 line center spot too. That's the start of a pretty hard to play against bottom 6.

Ya I kind of assumed Lapierre would be re-upped.

(Sutter trade) Sundqvist X
Rust Lapierre X

Sundqvist I believe costs 650k, Ditto Rust, and Lapierre probably stays the same 1.2m.

Get some youth and energy on those lines, and best of all cheap contracts.

Agreed. I've just assumed they are moving on from Bennett so I always figure they can package him to try and up the return. Hopefully they can get a top 6 winger from that package that the organization will tryst. I'd move Kunitz for whatever (likely a mid round pick?).

Capps source said nothing has changed in regards to BB, so I assume he only remains a Pen if they can't move him for a decent return.

And ya I am assuming they cut the vet fat. Martin, Scuds, Kunitz, Adams. Move Sutter and don't pay him 4.5-5m when you have a guy like Sundqvist waiting in the wings. Be smart. Manage your assets and play and develop the youth on ELCs.

It's LONG overdue. If they haven't learned their lessons by now, it's hopeless.

 

[Riptide]

Why do so many rosters continue to have Lovejoy on them? If he's on your roster it automatically sucks.

This is irrational. Lovejoy has proven that he can play a role and be successful with it. While I'm far from his biggest fan, we have much bigger issues to deal with then him, and considering that our GM just acquired him, it's unlikely he trades him this summer. In fact if I was going to bet, I'd bet on him getting an extension before him getting traded.

 

[IcedCapp]

re-sign Comeau and Laps, trade Kunitz and Sutter for other assets.

I like Comeau and Lapierre. Comeau doesn't have to be in the top-6, but he's nice depth.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Why would you guys ever assume they'll move on from those contracts?

Kunitz, Scuderi, Sutter in particular?

An attempt to maintain some semblance of hope? I guess I could see that.

 

[Shady Machine]

This is irrational. Lovejoy has proven that he can play a role and be successful with it. While I'm far from his biggest fan, we have much bigger issues to deal with then him, and considering that our GM just acquired him, it's unlikely he trades him this summer. In fact if I was going to bet, I'd bet on him getting an extension before him getting traded.

I certainly hope he is not re-upped unless it's short term and not much of a raise. Agreed on his game though. The problem (other than the awful trade to acquire him) really is with Scuderi and him. Neither are 2nd pairing defenders and would be brutal together. So you have to get rid of Scuds for the D to make any sense.

 

[Shady Machine]

Why would you guys ever assume they'll move on from those contracts?

Kunitz, Scuderi, Sutter in particular?

An attempt to maintain some semblance of hope? I guess I could see that.

For my part it's not an assumption. I just think it's the only way for them to try to build a contender any time in the near future. It's beyond obvious, but yeah I don't expect them to do it.

I do think one of Kunitz or Scuderi will be gone. They can't be THAT stupid. I think.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

They can't be THAT stupid. I think.

Nine sets of ears perk up every time this phrase is uttered.

I've only found one guarantee with this team the last six years. And that's that they do everything with an almost willful type of stupidity. When they start proving me wrong on even a semi-consistent basis... that's when I'll begin to believe that they'll make the right decisions.

Which would include getting as far away from those previously-mentioned contracts as quickly as possible. It should have literally been done a season ago. But they didn't want to and made excuses not to. That won't change until a lot more happens, first.

 

[drpepper]

Agreed which is why I would make the necessary changes this summer even if it means a full transition year where they don't go all in to try and win.

I truly believe if the organization told fans "we realize we need to take a step back and re-tool to go forward and be a real contender for the next 5-7 years" that fans would embrace it and the business would be more successful in the long run. Enough with the quick fixes and hoping Sid and Geno can mask the team's faults.

Take a shot at Panarin. He's cheap and skilled. Low risk high reward.
Re-sign Comeau if he's cheap.
Give Sundqvist and one of Rust, Wilson a full time spot.
Trade Kunitz, trade or dump Scuds, Trade Sutter and Bennett (Bennett trade is inevitable in my mind).

Perron-Crosby-Hornqvist
Panarin-Malkin-Winger Trade for Sutter, Bennett
Wilson-Sundqvist-Comeau
Spaling-Lapierre-Bernier/Rust/Farnham/whoever

Maatta-Letang
Dumoulin-Cole
Pouliot-Lovejoy
Chorney

That lineup may be better than this year, it may be worse. But it would preserve cap space for the future and fully allow our youth on D to develop. Sign another Chorney type or 2 in the minors that can be called up in the even of injuries. If they lose, they lose but it would be a step in the right direction for this team.

First, I think the quickest way to lose Crosby and Malkin is to say that the team is not going to compete. It's not acceptable.

Second, what are you preserving cap space for? It's one thing to have a long-term plan (Buffalo); it's unacceptable to not have any solution and just hope that something turns up (Toronto). I don't see specifics of what the Pens are waiting for

There is no salvation coming in the prospect ranks on offense.

Third, do you have specifics on trading Sutter and Bennett for an NHL ready top 6 winger?

Even worse, I think your line up risks damaging the prospects that the Pens actually have. It also leaves the Pens with a far worse line up than this year as the defense is bad and the bottom 6 is worse. That puts even more pressure on Crosby and Malkin with even less secondary scoring to help them.

Also being realistic, as the bottom 6 fails to score even in comparison with this year's bottom 6, the Pens will overspend at the TDL for scoring, grit and experience. Same on the defense. The team isn't going to accept not making the playoffs.

I don't see a "re-tool" in your proposal. I don't see a direction much less the right direction. I just see a hope for the best and some magic handwaving.

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

Do you actually believe that?

Yes. If he's done with this team do they really need an excuse to scratch him? Healthy scratching him would make it easier, from a PR standpoint, to move him this summer. After all, he couldn't even beat out a callup.

It's not as if Beau Bennett being injured should come as a surprise, either.

If you're going to indulge in conspiratorial thinking regarding the organization, at least find a theory that makes some sense.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

I'm starting to like the idea of going with the following No. 1 line next season:

Sundqvist-Crosby-Hornqvist

Scrap the 3rd-line checking line concept, and we can use the above line against the other team's best all the time. I can envision this line to be a poor man's version of Saad-Toews-Hossa. Plus, I believe Sundqvist has been on the wing for most of 2014-15 in Sweden, right? So leave him there. He has the size we need in the top six, and I assume he would learn a ton by playing with Sid and Horny.

THEN, we can work on adding more top-9 forwards to go with Malkin, Perron and Bennett so that we can create three offensive lines. Obviously, we'll need to add a center and two more wingers, preferably with some size to them. And maybe leave one spot open for Kapanen or another rookie to make the team.

I assume most people will hate this because 'Sundqvist is too raw to be placed in such an important role', and because most people think we can still compete for a Cup.

 

[Sideline]

Ya I kind of assumed Lapierre would be re-upped.

(Sutter trade) Sundqvist X
Rust Lapierre X

Sundqvist I believe costs 650k, Ditto Rust, and Lapierre probably stays the same 1.2m.

Get some youth and energy on those lines, and best of all cheap contracts.

Capps source said nothing has changed in regards to BB, so I assume he only remains a Pen if they can't move him for a decent return.

And ya I am assuming they cut the vet fat. Martin, Scuds, Kunitz, Adams. Move Sutter and don't pay him 4.5-5m when you have a guy like Sundqvist waiting in the wings. Be smart. Manage your assets and play and develop the youth on ELCs.

It's LONG overdue. If they haven't learned their lessons by now, it's hopeless.

I'm with you on Sundqvist and Rust; they are exactly what the bottom 6 needs. I also like what I've seen from Wilson so far. I think they should keep Winnik or bring in a guy like Erik Condra if Sutter is being traded.

Sundqvist-Spaling-Condra
Wilson-Lapierre-Rust

That should cost you about $7 million. Spaling isn't anything special, but he's a decent enough stop gap until Sundqvist gets comfortable enough to carry the load at centre. Saves about $1.5m compared to this year.

Sutter+Bennett has to get you a top 6 winger. Assuming Kunitz is out that still leaves another hole to fill. I expect the Penguins will say a healthy Dupuis is the guy that fills it. If we're lucky Kapanen will force Dupuis into the bottom 6 sometime during the season.

Dupuis-Crosby-Hornqvist
Perron-Malkin-(Sutter-trade)

That's flat money compared to this year plus or minus the difference between Sutter and the guy they get for him.

Maatta-Letang
Dumoulin-Cole
Pouliot-Lovejoy
Cheap7th

That's going to save you another 7 or 8 million depending on how much Scuderi money hangs around.

That team is competitive and leaves you in good shape to re-sign the kids in 2016.

 

[Shady Machine]

First, I think the quickest way to lose Crosby and Malkin is to say that the team is not going to compete. It's not acceptable.

Second, what are you preserving cap space for? It's one thing to have a long-term plan (Buffalo); it's unacceptable to not have any solution and just hope that something turns up (Toronto). I don't see specifics of what the Pens are waiting for

There is no salvation coming in the prospect ranks on offense.

Third, do you have specifics on trading Sutter and Bennett for an NHL ready top 6 winger?

Even worse, I think your line up risks damaging the prospects that the Pens actually have. It also leaves the Pens with a far worse line up than this year as the defense is bad and the bottom 6 is worse. That puts even more pressure on Crosby and Malkin with even less secondary scoring to help them.

Also being realistic, as the bottom 6 fails to score even in comparison with this year's bottom 6, the Pens will overspend at the TDL for scoring, grit and experience. Same on the defense. The team isn't going to accept not making the playoffs.

I don't see a "re-tool" in your proposal. I don't see a direction much less the right direction. I just see a hope for the best and some magic handwaving.

Your roster was signing Comeau for the top 6 and doing nothing else. So I fail to see how my solution was any worse than yours.

Again I appreciate the critiques but I asked you yesterday for your solutions and all you do is put together a table that suggests Comeau is the best top 6 winger to sign and that's all you do. So how would you fill out the roster next year?

 

[Asuna]

I'm starting to like the idea of going with the following No. 1 line next season:

Sundqvist-Crosby-Hornqvist

Scrap the 3rd-line checking line concept, and we can use the above line against the other team's best all the time. I can envision this line to be a poor man's version of Saad-Toews-Hossa. Plus, I believe Sundqvist has been on the wing for most of 2014-15 in Sweden, right? So leave him there. He has the size we need in the top six, and I assume he would learn a ton by playing with Sid and Horny.

THEN, we can work on adding more top-9 forwards to go with Malkin, Perron and Bennett so that we can create three offensive lines. Obviously, we'll need to add a center and two more wingers, preferably with some size to them. And maybe leave one spot open for Kapanen or another rookie to make the team.

I assume most people will hate this because 'Sundqvist is too raw to be placed in such an important role', and because most people think we can still compete for a Cup.

I think you can take Bennett out of any future lineup plans. He's clearly not going to be here for much longer.

But I like that idea otherwise. If it doesn't work out, move him down the lineup.

 

[Shady Machine]

Yes. If he's done with this team do they really need an excuse to scratch him? Healthy scratching him would make it easier, from a PR standpoint, to move him this summer. After all, he couldn't even beat out a callup.

It's not as if Beau Bennett being injured should come as a surprise, either.

If you're going to indulge in conspiratorial thinking regarding the organization, at least find a theory that makes some sense.

It makes plenty of sense to me. We heard rumors that the org wasn't happy with Bennett and Adams in the lineup and were looking at guys down in WBS to play in the playoffs once the cap was lifted. They called up Wilson and gave him a few practices with the team and then Bennett becomes 'injured' but is still practicing and staying after morning skates. If he was legitimately injured (as in worse than wearing two knee braces the whole season), don't you think he's take a practice or two off?

 

[drpepper]

Your roster was signing Comeau for the top 6 and doing nothing else. So I fail to see how my solution was any worse than yours.

I didn't have a roster on my post at all unless somehow the Pens are going to play with no defense or goalies. My post only addressed potential top 6 / tweener wingers in UFA where there isn't much to chose from.

I still don't quite understand your solution. The Pens wait a year for the defense to get experience, drop some players, and then . . . what?

 

[drpepper]

I'm starting to like the idea of going with the following No. 1 line next season:

Sundqvist-Crosby-Hornqvist

Scrap the 3rd-line checking line concept, and we can use the above line against the other team's best all the time. I can envision this line to be a poor man's version of Saad-Toews-Hossa. Plus, I believe Sundqvist has been on the wing for most of 2014-15 in Sweden, right? So leave him there. He has the size we need in the top six, and I assume he would learn a ton by playing with Sid and Horny.

THEN, we can work on adding more top-9 forwards to go with Malkin, Perron and Bennett so that we can create three offensive lines. Obviously, we'll need to add a center and two more wingers, preferably with some size to them. And maybe leave one spot open for Kapanen or another rookie to make the team.

I assume most people will hate this because 'Sundqvist is too raw to be placed in such an important role', and because most people think we can still compete for a Cup.

Isn't Sundqvist another RW like Hornqvist?

 

[Shady Machine]

I didn't have a roster on my post at all unless somehow the Pens are going to play with no defense or goalies. My post only addressed potential top 6 / tweener wingers in UFA where there isn't much to chose from.

I still don't quite understand your solution. The Pens wait a year for the defense to get experience and then . . . what?

It's better than not having a solution.

I told you my solution but you automatically point out all negatives without recognizing the positives.

My point was you have to cut the fat and be willing to let the young players play. You know, it's possible to make the playoffs with youth in prime roles on your team. You are assuming the D will suck. Why is negativity the default option?

 

[Ogrezilla]

Because everyone has their limits.

Neither of these guys are stupid. Far from it. They can utter as many brave words as they want to. But there's always the chance that they feel the team's position is untenable and want to actually do something productive with the rest of their careers. I don't think it's especially likely... but this team has consistently found ways to out-do itself when it comes to crushing disappointment. So I'm preparing for it.

I am really glad I am not this bitter

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

It makes plenty of sense to me. We heard rumors that the org wasn't happy with Bennett and Adams in the lineup and were looking at guys down in WBS to play in the playoffs once the cap was lifted. They called up Wilson and gave him a few practices with the team and then Bennett becomes 'injured' but is still practicing and staying after morning skates. If he was legitimately injured (as in worse than wearing two knee braces the whole season), don't you think he's take a practice or two off?

If it's an upper body injury that wouldn't be made worse by practice but would impact in game performance significantly, I don't see why he wouldn't practice. I don't know if he's fully participating in practice, though. Are they even doing full contact practices now?

I'm pretty sure the NHL would have something to say about a team straight up lying about injuries like that, too.

The only argument that would make sense is that they're trying to keep his trade value up by saying he's injured instead of not good enough to play. But that makes little sense, too. Try telling another team, "You should give us what we want. We don't think Bennett sucks, he's just injured all the time."

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Whatever you guys do... remember to keep your projections just a shade under the current cap limit. Because that's almost certainly where the league is at, next year. Not this 73 million dollar fantasyland everyone was talking about all season long.

I am really glad I am not this bitter

Give it a few years.

And honestly... I'm not bitter at all. What about that post struck you as bitter? I'm a pretty happy-go-lucky guy were you to meet me. Seems pretty solidly entrenched in reality, to me. Have we been watching the same team?

 

[Shady Machine]

If it's an upper body injury that wouldn't be made worse by practice but would impact in game performance significantly, I don't see why he wouldn't practice. I don't know if he's fully participating in practice, though. Are they even doing full contact practices now?

I'm pretty sure the NHL would have something to say about a team straight up lying about injuries like that, too.

The only argument that would make sense is that they're trying to keep his trade value up by saying he's injured instead of not good enough to play. But that makes little sense, too. Try telling another team, "You should give us what we want. We don't think Bennett sucks, he's just injured all the time."

I'm not saying he isn't injured at all. I'm saying I don't think that's the main reason he is sitting right now. I'm certainly open to being wrong about it and it's just speculation on my part anyway.

 

[Shady Machine]

Whatever you guys do... remember to keep your projections just a shade under the current cap limit. Because that's almost certainly where the league is at, next year. Not this 73 million dollar fantasyland everyone was talking about all season long.

For sure. And Maatta, Lovejoy, Perron, Sutter if retained, Spaling if retained will all need to be re-signed after next season. So that is another reason why I am saying they have to cut the fat this summer and role with some youngsters.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Whatever you guys do... remember to keep your projections just a shade under the current cap limit. Because that's almost certainly where the league is at, next year. Not this 73 million dollar fantasyland everyone was talking about all season long.



Give it a few years.

And honestly... I'm not bitter at all. What about that post struck you as bitter? I'm a pretty happy-go-lucky guy were you to meet me. Seems pretty solidly entrenched in reality, to me. Have we been watching the same team?

I'm watching a team that is a trimming of fat and a healthy D from being back amongst the best teams in the league. Even with this group, with a decimated D, we have played four 1-goal games and are losing the series 9 goals to 7 against one of the best teams in the league.

 

[Shady Machine]

I'm watching a team that is a trimming of fat and a healthy D from being back amongst the best teams in the league.

Hmm really? Good on you for being positive I guess.