Speculation: Roster Building Thread LXXXII: Stepping up in a Perfect Storm?

[True Blue]

it's arguable he'd have at least 1 goal last game if he played on the PP instead of Blackwell... I could have had a goal over Blackwell last game tbh. Couldn't make that up

So conjecture of "had he played here, he would have scored a goal". Ok. And am certain you could have also scored 4 had you been in the line up instead of Kreider.

 

[Tob]

I was sitting on the can doing my thing and I remembered the fact that we've actually been raving about K'andre for years, haven't we? Like, I swear we were extremely high on him months after he was drafted and continued to do so. I even remember seeing a lot of people on the main boards who aren't Rangers fans say Miller is not going to be traded for anything short of a too good to turn down offer. Like, why are we talking about Miller as if he struggled in college and failed to develop? Miller is literally the most improved player prior to his arrival to the big club we've seen in this rebuild, ahead of even Nils.

My axe grinding against posts saying Quinn deserves lots of credit for Miller is based on the fact that he was already super impressive and looked great according to JD during the play-in round practices. It is as disingenuous to credit Quinn with the success of Miller without recognizing that he was excellent and trending upward as it is to take credit away from Quinn for his part in turning Lindgren into a solid top 4 player.

 

[jay from jersey]

Its a shortened season, you should expect the back up every few games, all teams are doing it, he was gonna get one of the Boston games, better that he gets the first one as it gives Shesterkin some rest before his next game...its no surprise.

Yea I’m good with Georgi in the first game as well especially if shesty tweaked his knee

 

[DialUp]

M

McDavid would be a 60 point player if we had drafted him

60 points + 3 blocked shots/game + 168 board battle wins + 15 really strong "give him the C"efforts = 495 NYR silver lining points

 

[OrangePMD]

They will be adding a good bit this offseason one way or another. $8M buyout hit, $6M performance bonus hit, $8M Smith and DeAngelo freeing up to be reinvested. Some of that $ will be put back into the roster one way or another.

While I do agree that we'll have a lot of cap space, a few things about the performance bonus penalty.

Currently, it's "only" 4 mil and change. Next year, with the current roster it'll be at least 587.500. And depending on which prospects we sign, and who makes the team, it could potentially be even higher than this year ( but not likely ). IMO, armchair-GMs should add about a 2.5 mil cap penalty to be on the safe side.

 

[Daves a mess]

Oh great Alexander the Terrible is back

You're just scared he'll headlock your knee.

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

While I do agree that we'll have a lot of cap space, a few things about the performance bonus penalty.

Currently, it's "only" 4 mil and change. Next year, with the current roster it'll be at least 587.500. And depending on which prospects we sign, and who makes the team, it could potentially be even higher than this year ( but not likely ). IMO, armchair-GMs should add about a 2.5 mil cap penalty to be on the safe side.

Fair enough good call...I am not much of a capologist. And I actually made a mistake and was just looking at total potential bonuses, not the bonus cushion penalty. So somethere between $0-3.7M savings next year vs this year.

 

[kovazub94]

No, change for the sake of having someone that can give a different approach to working with our young forwards. I'm not trying to hire just anyone.

You just acknowledged that Chytil and Kakko have been developing and you’re expecting more development toward the end of the season with a concluding statement that you didn’t expect Quinn’s replacement to do any better.

 

[Trxjw]

Confirm to fans that Rome is burning, duh

At this point I half expect people to start complaining that Gorton hasn't managed to steal covid vaccinations from the state.

 

[kovazub94]

So conjecture of "had he played here, he would have scored a goal". Ok. And am certain you could have also scored 4 had you been in the line up instead of Kreider.

Haha, I knew someone would go there. Everything else would be EXACTLY the same, obviously!

 

[Tob]

You just acknowledged that Chytil and Kakko have been developing and you’re expecting more development toward the end of the season with a concluding statement that you didn’t expect Quinn’s replacement to do any better.

you misinterpreted me. I phrased it awkwardly. I said I don't see any reason why Gallant or Monty can't at least do just as good of a job as what Quinn is doing right now (in regards to forwards progressing and growing).

 

[kovazub94]

At this point I half expect people to start complaining that Gorton hasn't managed to steal covid vaccinations from the state.

Not this crowd. This crowd is about to start complaining about Quinn not getting the virus from Kakko or Miller - not close enough to their development, obviously.

 

[duhmetreE]

So who developed them?

How does any player or person develop? Guidance, experience, practice and most importantly time. You are attempting to argue something I'm not arguing.

A large majority of this boards expectations did not correlate with reality...

a) KAM developed a lot more than people here thought and expected in his 2 years at college.
b) KAM was still extremely raw but with a shortened training camp miracle turned into a polished and developed gem.

which one is more likely? This is not saying this current coaching staff is not helping him continue to refine his game. KAM and Fox developed their elite talents in College... Unfortunately, for whatever reason, it's not translating with our elite forward prospects. Maybe they would have benefited with a couple years of College?

 

[kovazub94]

How does any player or person develop? Guidance, experience, practice and most importantly time. You are attempting to argue something I'm not arguing.

A large majority of this boards expectations did not correlate with reality...

a) KAM developed a lot more than people here thought and expected in his 2 years at college.
b) KAM was still extremely raw but with one shortened training camp turned into a polished and developed gem.

which one is more likely? This is not saying this current coaching staff is not helping him continue to refine his game. KAM and Fox developed their elite talents in College... Unfortunately, for whatever reason, it's not translating with our elite forward prospects. Maybe they would benefitd with a couple years of College?

Based on how Miller looked in Wisconsin, how he looked in WJCs he participated also while in college, the most straightforward answer is that he hand a significant developmental jump since he left college and signed the Rangers contract. And if you think Quinn had very little to do with it - I don’t know what to tell you.

 

[McRanger]

The argument is this. For the people claiming that Fox and Miller arrived in NY as perfectly formed players. Which means that the believe two things. That at the time of the Gorton trade they KNEW they were already getting a player whose trajectory was to be an elite top line defenseman. And that Miller developed in Wisconsin.

Both assertions are utter horsecrap. At the time of the Fox deal, most in the NHL thought him to be a nice 2nd pair defenseman in the future. Including no one here. If someone wants to claim this, then let's see the posts that proclaim as such. And lest we forget the cries around here about needing to rescue Miller from Wisconsin as he was being ruined there by Granato. If someone wants to argue that Granato was properly developing him, then again let's see the proof.

The reason that NO ONE can produce such is that such assertions did not exist. So, no. Neither player came to NY as a perfectly formed player. Miller did not suddenly develop himself skating in the backyard. This board goes to so much contortions to try not to give the team any credit for development. To the point of intellectual dishonesty. AFTER Fox came here and begin developing, he took the next step to be where he is now, a borderline top line defenseman. AFTER Miller came here, he began developing into what he is. Not in friggin' Wisconsin where all proclaiming now that he came in as a perfectly formed player were previously falling into collective apoplexy about how Granato was ruining him.

That's the argument.

Fox is not a "perfectly formed player" (we all hope for literally the opposite of this, the Rangers future basically hinges on Fox continuing to get better) but he did start his career as a great defenseman after being great in college and being great everywhere else he played before that. Whether people thought he was the 2nd coming or a "nice 2nd pair" player or a scrub doesn't really matter; he started as a Ranger as our best defenseman. People were literally comparing him to McDonagh and Leetch after what, a few weeks of playing in the NHL?

So unless your theory is that Quinn sprinkled magic powder on him during training camp, my guess is what you are seeing is simply the normal development of a player who (however underrated he was) is just really, really good. And Quinn getting credit for what coaches usually get credit for, giving him ice time and putting him in the best position to succeed.

I mean honestly, do you truly believe that the aspects of Fox's game that make him so good (his defensive reads, his awareness, his passing) would be any different if he spent the last 20 months with Torts? Or AV? Or Renney? Quinn is no more responsible for Fox being awesome than he is for Hajek being awful.

Frankly, this all just seems like a desperate attempt to justify the job of a coach who isn't doing much else.

 

[RangersFan1994]

Senators place Chlapik on waivers to terminate contract

Rangers needing center help should take advantage here.


rather see him on the ice over #76

 

[duhmetreE]

Based on how Miller looked in Wisconsin, how he looked in WJCs he participated also while in college, the most straightforward answer is that he hand a significant developmental jump since he left college and signed the Rangers contract. And if you think Quinn had very little to do with it - I don’t know what to tell you.

The most straightforward answer is he had a significant developmental jump by playing/practicing a limited amount of hockey?

So, from March, in a limited amount of time, he developed exponentially into the Covid Camp. Then by not practicing or competing with a team, through quarantine, he grew even more into the player he is now? That's the straightforward answer? not that he was further along than everyone expected? and as any NHL coaching staff should, help him make necessary tweaks.

I don't agree your assessment and I think it's based on faulty expectations.

side tangent... Kakko and Laf are having 'bad' measurable seasons.. are they developing?

 

[Synergy27]

Based on how Miller looked in Wisconsin, how he looked in WJCs he participated also while in college, the most straightforward answer is that he hand a significant developmental jump since he left college and signed the Rangers contract. And if you think Quinn had very little to do with it - I don’t know what to tell you.

Or that the system he is playing in suits him much better than the others. Perhaps he was processing the game on a different level than his teammates at the lower level, expecting them to do things they then didn’t do and vice versus.

Quinn gets credit for instituting that system of course. As does Martin. I’m not giving him credit for after practice one on ones or specially tailored drills or something that enabled KAM to take a leap. It’s a complex system.

 

[cwede]

Senators place Chlapik on waivers to terminate contract
Rangers needing center help should take advantage here.
rather see him on the ice over #76

agreed

don't know how commited he is to leaving NA/NHL/AHL but I'd give him a shot w Pack, very young/inexperienced team, he is an experienced 23 year old, and a C

 

[rangers1314]

Senators place Chlapik on waivers to terminate contract

Rangers needing center help should take advantage here.


rather see him on the ice over #76

Contract termination probably means hes going to Europe, no?

 

[bl02]

Well Strome is a center, so there is that. At last check, neither Lafreniere nor Kakko played center. And Blackwell has looked, well pretty good and not out of place at all. So, yeah. Not really that much of an issue of Lafreneire spending some more time on PP2. It is really not a big deal.

what does it matter that Strome is a center? Mika is a center. It's not like Strome is Patrice Bergeron taking faceoffs.

 

[True Blue]

How does any player or person develop? Guidance, experience, practice and most importantly time. You are attempting to argue something I'm not arguing.

A large majority of this boards expectations did not correlate with reality...

a) KAM developed a lot more than people here thought and expected in his 2 years at college.
b) KAM was still extremely raw but with a shortened training camp miracle turned into a polished and developed gem.

which one is more likely? This is not saying this current coaching staff is not helping him continue to refine his game.

Guidance or coaching? You said the players did not develop by themselves. And then list guidance, experience, practice and time. Guidance pretty much is coaching? Or is it advice from mentors as one individual pointed out? Practice is conducted under the watchful eye of coaches, is it not? Experience comes from playing and then going over your play ......with a coach.

KAM and Fox developed their elite talents in College... Unfortunately, for whatever reason, it's not translating with our elite forward prospects. Maybe they would have benefited with a couple years of College?

This is what I mean by outright intellectual dishonestly. Fox developed his elite ability in college? Yeah? Find me one single post from this board that called him "elite" at the time of the trade. Find me one single NHL prospects article that called his talent elite. Find me one single post from this board that called Miller being developed at Wisconsin as elite. Just one. You can't. You will find a ton on how he is being ruined in Wisconsin and how the Rangers need to get him out for his own good. The revisionist history really is something.

 

[True Blue]

Fox is not a "perfectly formed player" (we all hope for literally the opposite of this, the Rangers future basically hinges on Fox continuing to get better) but he did start his career as a great defenseman after being great in college and being great everywhere else he played before that. Whether people thought he was the 2nd coming or a "nice 2nd pair" player or a scrub doesn't really matter; he started as a Ranger as our best defenseman. People were literally comparing him to McDonagh and Leetch after what, a few weeks of playing in the NHL?

So unless your theory is that Quinn sprinkled magic powder on him during training camp, my guess is what you are seeing is simply the normal development of a player who (however underrated he was) is just really, really good. And Quinn getting credit for what coaches usually get credit for, giving him ice time and putting him in the best position to succeed.

I mean honestly, do you truly believe that the aspects of Fox's game that make him so good (his defensive reads, his awareness, his passing) would be any different if he spent the last 20 months with Torts? Or AV? Or Renney? Quinn is no more responsible for Fox being awesome than he is for Hajek being awful.

Frankly, this all just seems like a desperate attempt to justify the job of a coach who isn't doing much else.

Frankly this seems lime more mental gymnastics as way to justify dismissing a coach.

Yes, I believe that magic dust was sprinkled when it came from bringing Fox from being thought of as a nice offensive 2nd pair d-man to someone who has come to borderline elite levels. Pretty sure it did not come from the sky.

 

[True Blue]

what does it matter that Strome is a center? Mika is a center. It's not like Strome is Patrice Bergeron taking faceoffs.

When you are going to start to lobby players to play over other players on the PP, position has a good amount to do with it. A 19 year old should learn the game by playing his position. Otherwise why not just lobby for him to play instead of a defenseman on the PP? Not everyone can simply play point. Not everyone can simply play center.

 

[bl02]

Yea I’m good with Georgi in the first game as well especially if shesty tweaked his knee

Oh man please this week has been garbage enough. Didn't he make all those breakaway saves after that possible knee tweak?