Confirmed with Link: Roman Josi signs extension - 8 years / $9.059 M per year

[glenngineer]

As for Turris, we gave up three really good assets to get him less than two years ago and would have to give up more assets to move him right now or eat enough of his salary that by the time you pay his replacement you have not really saved anything. Just not worth it.

Girard was one. Kamenev is questionable. I had to look up the last piece which was a second-round pick. As much as we all like Girard, he didn't have a future on the left side in Nashville with Josi and Ekholm. At the time of the deal, we received a number 2 center, which we sorely lacked. Last year was a disappointment for Turris but having cracked some ribs in my past, I can only imagine what he wasn't able to do conditioning-wise while out. He then comes back and breaks his foot, once again, limiting his conditioning.

Was last year a trend or an anomaly? We'll find out this year the answer to that question. In any deal, you have to give to get. At the time of the deal, we got the best player. Two years later, that's debatable. I have my questions about a 160-pound defenseman lasting in the NHL long term, even as shifty as Girard is.

Much like the Joey-Jones trade, we got the better player at the time the trade took place but many would agree Jones has eclipsed Joey's value. At the time, Jones did not have a future with Weber and Ellis ahead of him on the depth charts. This is the one trade I wish we could do over but I don't know if their GM would've gone for a Weber/Joey swap. If he had, we never make the move for Subban but we are in a better position long term with Jones and Josi at the helm of the d-corp.

Hindsight is an amazing thing and you can always second guess most deals. I think for the most part Poile does a good overall job with his player management. Does he make his share of mistakes, sure. Does he field a good hockey club year in and year out, I think he does.

All this to say, I think Josi gets a hair over $8, and Poile follows the Red Wing model of your Captain making the most money and everyone else falls in line behind him.

 

[PredsHead]

Girard was one. Kamenev is questionable. I had to look up the last piece which was a second-round pick. As much as we all like Girard, he didn't have a future on the left side in Nashville with Josi and Ekholm. At the time of the deal, we received a number 2 center, which we sorely lacked. Last year was a disappointment for Turris but having cracked some ribs in my past, I can only imagine what he wasn't able to do conditioning-wise while out. He then comes back and breaks his foot, once again, limiting his conditioning.

Was last year a trend or an anomaly? We'll find out this year the answer to that question. In any deal, you have to give to get. At the time of the deal, we got the best player. Two years later, that's debatable. I have my questions about a 160-pound defenseman lasting in the NHL long term, even as shifty as Girard is.

Much like the Joey-Jones trade, we got the better player at the time the trade took place but many would agree Jones has eclipsed Joey's value. At the time, Jones did not have a future with Weber and Ellis ahead of him on the depth charts. This is the one trade I wish we could do over but I don't know if their GM would've gone for a Weber/Joey swap. If he had, we never make the move for Subban but we are in a better position long term with Jones and Josi at the helm of the d-corp.

Hindsight is an amazing thing and you can always second guess most deals. I think for the most part Poile does a good overall job with his player management. Does he make his share of mistakes, sure. Does he field a good hockey club year in and year out, I think he does.

All this to say, I think Josi gets a hair over $8, and Poile follows the Red Wing model of your Captain making the most money and everyone else falls in line behind him.

I was responding to a post about trading someone else, specifically Ellis or Turris, instead of Subban to clear the cap space for Duchene, wasn't second guessing the Turris trade at all. My point was that since we had already given up three good assets (Kamenev was a very good prospect when we traded him) for Turris just two years ago, it would probably be a bad idea to attach another good asset to move at least part of his contract instead of receiving assets for trading Subban. Even more so when you factor the things you mentioned about Turris' injuries last year into the equation.

 

[triggrman]

Kamenev was no longer a good prospect, he could never put it together in camp.

 

[PredsHead]

Kamenev was no longer a good prospect, he could never put it together in camp.

I will agree that he never made himself stick in camp, but he was still a good prospect. Clearly Fiala was ahead of him, but IMO we were grooming him to be a Mike Fisher type guy and those guys typically require a bit more "seasoning" in the AHL to get the complete game you want them to have. We also had Sissons who was a bit older so didn't need to rush Kamenev. He had just turned 21 when he was traded and had scored 59 points in his last 80 AHL games. Most pundits still had him listed as a Top 100 prospect, he was in the Top 50 the previous year.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

I was responding to a post about trading someone else, specifically Ellis or Turris, instead of Subban to clear the cap space for Duchene, wasn't second guessing the Turris trade at all. My point was that since we had already given up three good assets (Kamenev was a very good prospect when we traded him) for Turris just two years ago, it would probably be a bad idea to attach another good asset to move at least part of his contract instead of receiving assets for trading Subban. Even more so when you factor the things you mentioned about Turris' injuries last year into the equation.

This kind of thinking is harmful to a team. I do think that Poile indulges in it, though. Two wrongs don't make a right. If you made a bad trade and gave up assets to get a player who has not lived up to your expectations or has subsequently become redundant in your lineup... the answer is not to double down on retaining that player. Do you just not want to admit to a mistake? What other reason is there to make the decision based on the past price you paid to acquire him? You have to look present-tense and forward only.

 

[PredsHead]

This kind of thinking is harmful to a team. I do think that Poile indulges in it, though. Two wrongs don't make a right. If you made a bad trade and gave up assets to get a player who has not lived up to your expectations or has subsequently become redundant in your lineup... the answer is not to double down on retaining that player. Do you just not want to admit to a mistake? What other reason is there to make the decision based on the past price you paid to acquire him? You have to look present-tense and forward only.

Or you think that last year was a bit of anomaly because of the various injuries he suffered, and that he will be better this year. Then there is the fact that because of the term left on his contract it will take a very large plus to move it. The Leafs gave up a first to move one year of Marleau, how much would it cost to move 5 years of Turris? I'm guessing quite a bit. You also have to consider that even after moving out Turris, you would still have a cap issue next year unless the cap goes up higher than anticipated so moving Turris only delays the issue not fix it. PK's back also probably factored in as well, if he has another bad season that $9M a year doesn't get any easier to move. The cost to move Turris in theory will only go down as the term falls off his contract, while Subban may never be worth more than he is right now.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

Or you think that last year was a bit of anomaly because of the various injuries he suffered, and that he will be better this year. Then there is the fact that because of the term left on his contract it will take a very large plus to move it. The Leafs gave up a first to move one year of Marleau, how much would it cost to move 5 years of Turris? I'm guessing quite a bit. You also have to consider that even after moving out Turris, you would still have a cap issue next year unless the cap goes up higher than anticipated so moving Turris only delays the issue not fix it. PK's back also probably factored in as well, if he has another bad season that $9M a year doesn't get any easier to move. The cost to move Turris in theory will only go down as the term falls off his contract, while Subban may never be worth more than he is right now.

I would just argue: move Turris whenever you can. Forget about Subban now, that's over. Poile may have missed the boat on that one, but it's just as much in the past now as the Girard+/Turris trade.

Looking forward, the prospects don't look too good for Turris being in a great position to improve his standing in this organisation. Johansen, Duchene, and Sissons are locked in up the middle. Turris has always relied on opportunity to produce - linemates and PP time. He doesn't seem physically robust enough to do very well on the wing. Now, these are all things that could be overcome, maybe. But as a betting man, I don't like the odds of a big turnaround for him with us.

Speculation about his market value is probably wide open. His contract isn't over-35 like Marleau, and he's not 40 years old. So that's not a good example. James Neal or somebody like that might be better. Although at least right now Turris does still have a plausible injury excuse to fall back on. That might not be the case next year. We'll see how it evolves. We fans will never know what the market was or is, not until/unless Turris actually does get moved. I'm sure it's not the last time we'll talk about moving Turris. Unless he can reinvent himself he looks to have been rendered surplus by the acquisition of Duchene. His $6M is going to keep drawing our attention. Hopefully he can play well enough to keep his market value at or above zero. We'll see.

 

[OldFan]

Most trades have a winner and a loser. There are the occasional trade like Joey/Jones where it looks like both teams got what they wanted. But mostly winners/losers. And there’s a GM on both sides of a trade; so some GM looks great and the other a bozo. I’ve obviously exaggerated but you get my drift. That’s why being a GM is so hard and why we see a lot of turnover. Poile obviously rolled the dice on Subban to get Duchene and actually got what he wanted for Subban; cap space. The keys to this trade are Duchene and Fabbro. It doesn’t matter what Subban does over in the East.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

Most trades have a winner and a loser. There are the occasional trade like Joey/Jones where it looks like both teams got what they wanted. But mostly winners/losers. And there’s a GM on both sides of a trade; so some GM looks great and the other a bozo. I’ve obviously exaggerated but you get my drift. That’s why being a GM is so hard and why we see a lot of turnover. Poile obviously rolled the dice on Subban to get Duchene and actually got what he wanted for Subban; cap space. The keys to this trade are Duchene and Fabbro. It doesn’t matter what Subban does over in the East.

Well, there's "matters" and then "matters"... I'm still going to be curious to see what Subban does with the Devils. If he's a Norris finalist, for example, that's different than last year's sluggo Subban. And as the world always judges these types of things best in hindsight, it'll come up.

It won't really change my evaluation of Poile's performance, mind you. I understand the Jones/RyJo trade and why we made it and why we are mostly happy with it. The rest of the world is probably going to tip significantly on the "you lost!" side. But I don't hold it against Poile. Or the Turris trade. We had a gaping hole in the #2C spot, and Girard was going to be behind Josi and Ekholm forever. Trade made sense. At the time. It's going to turn out we lost it and that Turris is a redundant waste for us now. And the Subban gamble likewise I say makes sense. Now, I would have chosen to cut salary a different way myself, but the overall equation is something that's worth a try. I understand why Poile did it and think he got good value overall out of his move. He could have got even better value doing it differently, but still, the general plot outline was good - and he might still know things about Subban's health that we don't. Nevertheless, the rest of the world is still going to judge it in hindsight with a big heaping observation of how Subban performs for the Devils. So we'll get ample opportunity for further commentary on it, I'm sure! It "matters" from that peanut gallery perspective, even if it doesn't matter on the ice anymore.

 

[PredsV82]

Tick Tock.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

At least our ticking clock is just on an extension and we have our roster set for next season. All these teams sitting waiting for everybody else to make the first move on the big RFA contracts would be even more frustrating. Dunno why they all have to wait for eachother. Just sign the contract that works for you and forget about the Joneses. Glad we don't have a player sitting in this stalemate. Josi's extension will happen, and it doesn't really matter when, thankfully.

 

[PredsV82]

At least our ticking clock is just on an extension and we have our roster set for next season. All these teams sitting waiting for everybody else to make the first move on the big RFA contracts would be even more frustrating. Dunno why they all have to wait for eachother. Just sign the contract that works for you and forget about the Joneses. Glad we don't have a player sitting in this stalemate. Josi's extension will happen, and it doesn't really matter when, thankfully.

As long as it happens before the start of the season, it doesnt matter. But if it drags into November, December, then it becomes a distraction. We will start having all the Ryan Suter talk again, justified or not.

 

[OldFan]

As long as it happens before the start of the season, it doesnt matter. But if it drags into November, December, then it becomes a distraction. We will start having all the Ryan Suter talk again, justified or not.

Agreed but there’s obviously a problem. It’s been awhile. Do the parties wait a long time between comminications? I’ve negotiated a lot of business contracts but never anything like player contracts.

 

[jumb0]

Agreed but there’s obviously a problem. It’s been awhile. Do the parties wait a long time between comminications? I’ve negotiated a lot of business contracts but never anything like player contracts.

He just got married and went on his honeymoon. Let's pump the breaks on an "obvious problem".

 

[Predsanddead24]

He just got married and went on his honeymoon. Let's pump the breaks on an "obvious problem".

For real. I'll consider it a concern if its not done by training camp and an actual issue if it isn't done by the start of the season. Given the information we have it's just as likely Josi told Poile it won't be an issue and they can hammer out the details right before camp as it is that they're stuck in a negotiation with neither side budging. Actually, based on all the information we know about Josi I'd actually put the former in the more likely realm.

 

[PredsV82]

Well, maybe it's not technically a "problem" yet but using the "he just got married " explanation for why nothing has happened is a little disingenuous at this point. His wedding was over 4 weeks ago.

At the very least folks should wake up to the fact that a team friendly, significantly below market value sweetheart deal is not likely to happen now.

 

[101st_fan]

Well, maybe it's not technically a "problem" yet but using the "he just got married " explanation for why nothing has happened is a little disingenuous at this point. His wedding was over 4 weeks ago.

At the very least folks should wake up to the fact that a team friendly, significantly below market value sweetheart deal is not likely to happen now.

It's freaking August. Next to nothing is happening in the NHL universe right now.

 

[PredsV82]

It's freaking August. Next to nothing is happening in the NHL universe right now.

I'll be quite.pleased to be wrong. But remember, Poile is the one who identified the Josi extension as a "priority" not me.

 

[PredsHead]

Well, maybe it's not technically a "problem" yet but using the "he just got married " explanation for why nothing has happened is a little disingenuous at this point. His wedding was over 4 weeks ago.

At the very least folks should wake up to the fact that a team friendly, significantly below market value sweetheart deal is not likely to happen now.

Maybe he just wanted to take the summer off and will pick up the negotiations when he goes back. He could also be wanting to wait until Provorov or Werenski sign to see if either of them can push his price up. IMO its not even an issue until rookie camp starts.

 

[101st_fan]

Players like Tkachuk, Werenski, and Marner remain unsigned for this fall. It's the August doldrums where next to nothing of significance happens across the league. Things happen in the first half of July ... then die off until September every year. Since the last batch of arbitration award contracts at the beginning of the month there have been a whopping eight total signings with Nichushkin as the biggest name signed in that time and a few retirements announced ... I honestly didn't know Kevin Dallman was still playing organized hockey.

The next window to expect any major contract activity with bigger name players opens in about 2-3 weeks as players wind down their summer travels and camps start up. Until then, relax.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

Well, maybe it's not technically a "problem" yet but using the "he just got married " explanation for why nothing has happened is a little disingenuous at this point. His wedding was over 4 weeks ago.

At the very least folks should wake up to the fact that a team friendly, significantly below market value sweetheart deal is not likely to happen now.

I dunno, we're a little conditioned to expect things a certain way now. I'll still be surprised if it isn't just the simple 8x8. Just because our priorities as bored fans says it should have happened by now, doesn't really mean anything. Poile and Josi are all that really matters, maybe they just nodded, laughed, said no worries, we'll just take care of it a little later.

I'm giving it another 30 days before I even start to get a little antsy, anyway.

 

[Armourboy]

Wouldn't even surprise me if it's already done and Josi just told him he would sign it when he gets back to town and things get rolling again. Just because it was the priority doesn't mean it hasn't been hammered out for the most part. If we hit the start of the season and it's not done then I'll start asking questions.

 

[weeze]

Well, there's "matters" and then "matters"... I'm still going to be curious to see what Subban does with the Devils. If he's a Norris finalist, for example, that's different than last year's sluggo Subban. And as the world always judges these types of things best in hindsight, it'll come up.

It won't really change my evaluation of Poile's performance, mind you. I understand the Jones/RyJo trade and why we made it and why we are mostly happy with it. The rest of the world is probably going to tip significantly on the "you lost!" side. But I don't hold it against Poile. Or the Turris trade. We had a gaping hole in the #2C spot, and Girard was going to be behind Josi and Ekholm forever. Trade made sense. At the time. It's going to turn out we lost it and that Turris is a redundant waste for us now. And the Subban gamble likewise I say makes sense. Now, I would have chosen to cut salary a different way myself, but the overall equation is something that's worth a try. I understand why Poile did it and think he got good value overall out of his move. He could have got even better value doing it differently, but still, the general plot outline was good - and he might still know things about Subban's health that we don't. Nevertheless, the rest of the world is still going to judge it in hindsight with a big heaping observation of how Subban performs for the Devils. So we'll get ample opportunity for further commentary on it, I'm sure! It "matters" from that peanut gallery perspective, even if it doesn't matter on the ice anymore.

When I look at the deals and trades GMDP has made over the past several years, to me they were made because the players we brought in were players/positions we needed and the players/positions we traded out were because we had an abundance of that position. RyJo/Jones for example- We did not have a #1 Center and had not had a true one since Arnott. We had several D players in front of Jones at the time. Some say we lost on this deal, I say that is absurd! We have been screaming for a #1 C for years! And we were not going to get a Crosby, McDavid or any other of those players to come here! The Weber/Subban trade was a shocker to say the least. I did not want Shea traded but I understood why it happened. It changed out team dynamics and made us a faster team. It also made us a softer team. We had/have no one that teams fear(ed) and it showed, we were pushed around and beat up on. Even PK was beat up on by Crosby in SCF and nothing was done! Now the trade of PK to free up cap for Duchene was understandable as well. Some say "well I would have done something different", I don't know how that can be said because if you don't have another team wanting what you have you don't get to make that deal. A team wanted PK so GMDP made that deal. If a team "wanted" say Bones and Ellis or Smith then I am sure that deal would have been made. Just because we say well I would have made a different deal doesn't mean another team would want what you are trying to sell.

Has GMDP made some deals that have not worked, "Hell YES" but also he has brought us two Forsbergs, Dumont, Arnott, Kariya, Sullivan, Fisher, Neal and now RyJo, PK, Granlund and Duchene. I can't wait to see this team kick ass this season and make it the SCF! I say "Bring It On!"

 

[glenngineer]

Has GMDP made some deals that have not worked, "Hell YES" but also he has brought us two Forsbergs, Dumont, Arnott, Kariya, Sullivan, Fisher, Neal and now RyJo, PK, Granlund and Duchene. I can't wait to see this team kick ass this season and make it the SCF! I say "Bring It On!"

To be fair, Dumont, Arnott, Kariya and Duchene were all free agents so while they were "deals", they weren't really deals where we parted with talent to acquire them.

 

[FilthyScoresberg]

To be fair, Dumont, Arnott, Kariya and Duchene were all free agents so while they were "deals", they weren't really deals where we parted with talent to acquire them.

So we didn’t dump Subban for Duchene?