Confirmed with Link: Roman Josi signs extension - 8 years / $9.059 M per year

[PredsV82]

Subban was also traded at his lowest value. See where I'm going with this?
There was an alternate option. Poile didn't want to use it for no reason imo. The impact a Bonino and Turris would have doesn't make us advance compared to how Subban could take over games in the playoffs.

Keeping Subban was only an option for at most one year. Josi is getting his money next year no matter what and having 18 million or more tied up in a top pair wasnt going to (and shouldnt) happen. So Subban was leaving this year or next. Period. So you have had to trade two pieces to make room for Duchene and still traded Subban next summer. The way Poile did this is very much more sensible. (Unless of course you're suggesting we should trade Josi which is an island you would die on all alone)

 

[JustaFinnishGuy]

Keeping Subban was only an option for at most one year. Josi is getting his money next year no matter what and having 18 million or more tied up in a top pair wasnt going to (and shouldnt) happen. So Subban was leaving this year or next. Period. So you have had to trade two pieces to make room for Duchene and still traded Subban next summer. The way Poile did this is very much more sensible. (Unless of course you're suggesting we should trade Josi which is an island you would die on all alone)

18 million for 2 very good contributing pieces for a little while isn't a problem for teams except for the ones that have a 4th C for 4 million and a 3rd C for 6.
It doesn't matter if it's messy, selling Subban on his lowest value will be a mistake that didn't need to happen.
I hated how we didn't even get to take the full advantage of the effective cap dump, taking on Santini, an no impact player just to humor Shero or something.

 

[Armourboy]

No reason to worry about the Subban stuff, he's gone, it's done. Poile made the choice to move him. Maybe there are more reasons there than just money, maybe their aren't, but it doesn't matter now. We can afford to pay our 4th and 3rd that kind of money because Forsberg, Arvy, and Ekholm are cheap. Bonino probably won't be back after his contract, and who knows what happens with the draft.

 

[PredsV82]

18 million for 2 very good contributing pieces for a little while isn't a problem for teams except for the ones that have a 4th C for 4 million and a 3rd C for 6.
It doesn't matter if it's messy, selling Subban on his lowest value will be a mistake that didn't need to happen.
I hated how we didn't even get to take the full advantage of the effective cap dump, taking on Santini, an no impact player just to humor Shero or something.

I'm fairly certain we did not sell Subban at his lowest value.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

Josi hasn't been heads and shoulders better than Subban during the Subban years, and I wouldn't even say that he had been better at all collectively.
Josi is the best D we have but also isn't the cream of the crop there is regarding D-men of today.

The point I'm making is that if you really wanted Subban gone for his deal, why are you going the extra length to pay a different part of the core more (despite the cap rising) when the output was and is very similar to Subban?

I guess the answer is mostly loyalty and the fact that he's home grown.

Subban was better than Josi 2/3 regular seasons and 3/3 playoff seasons, I don't think anybody could disagree with that, but it really doesn't matter. Because that was The Past. And I think there is a fair projection based on what we saw from Subban last season that he wasn't ever going to be better than Josi again in any Future season. It's kind of pointless though to pit Josi against Subban. Because to me, that's really not anything that should ever have mattered. Subban vs. Ellis is where the real argument should rest, and that's where the potential mistake was made. It's The Future for Ellis that worries me, not Josi.

 

[Gh24]

I'm curious to know what kind of deals Poile had on the table as "other options". I mean Poile didn't pull trigger on those for some reason and I'd like to know why you think he should have?

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

I'm curious to know what kind of deals Poile had on the table as "other options". I mean Poile didn't pull trigger on those for some reason and I'd like to know why you think he should have?

We will never know, but I would have to imagine it would be some heap of the "usual suspects" trying to wriggle out of their own bad contracts who were the only other teams playing. Like Edmonton or Toronto etc, but always with far far worse contract dumps coming back than Santini, or retention that would hurt us, etc.

I don't doubt the New Jersey offer was the best one Poile had. I doubt it was even close. There just aren't many teams who had $9M in budgeted cap space available and an opening for him.

But for all they saved $7.6M on trading Subban, my beef will always be that maybe they could have had more suitors for an inferior-but-cheaper player like Ellis, as $6.25M is a lot easier to fit than $9M... and $6.25M removed from the payroll is getting close to $7.6M. I doubt they even tried to move anybody else though. That's the mistake Poile made. Or rather "potential mistake"... it's possible Subban is "done" and last season was representative of his future, and it's possible Ellis and Turris will rebound to some extent and not look as woeful for us. Those are the angles that will warrant critical scrutiny for future hindsighting moreso than worrying about the value Poile got for Subban or what the other trade options might have been.

If Duchene pans out, and Ellis and Turris bounce back, it probably doesn't even matter what Subban does - he can win another Norris and it may still work out for the Preds. Or if Subban falters again like last season, folks will have to accept Poile made the right call. We'll just have to wait and see.

 

[Scoresberg]

I doubt Subban will come back to his Norris form anymore, he has slowed down a lot the last few years and looked good in the playoffs against a slower more physical opponent (not taking anything away from him, he was our best D again in the playoffs) but I seriously doubt he can completely bounce back with his speed issues.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

I doubt Subban will come back to his Norris form anymore, he has slowed down a lot the last few years and looked good in the playoffs against a slower more physical opponent (not taking anything away from him, he was our best D again in the playoffs) but I seriously doubt he can completely bounce back with his speed issues.

I would say there are 2 aspects of that which hypothetically could factor into fixing his speed issues:

1) The nature of his injury last year - which we still know nothing about - no idea if or how much that might have factored into his slowness, and if or how much he might be expected to further recover from that.

2) His willingness to train differently. Subban is relatively small for an NHL D. It seems like he has historically trained to add bulk and strength to make up for his lack of size. But for a guy that sometimes lists at 210 lbs, that's not helping himself looking forward. He should probably play at 185 or 190 and try to get some agility and speed back that way. But I don't hear any suggestion he's trying some bold new training approach - and he's not usually shy about broadcasting those types of things. If he had some new fad diet/workout program there'd probably be a YouTube video about it by now.

So yeah, while I don't think it's necessarily a closed case that he couldn't fix his speed issues, there's not really a lot of reason for optimism that we know about anyway.

 

[PredsV82]

Remember, no matter what, Subban would be gone after next year. Josi is gonna get 9 or more and we just wouldnt have the cap space to have two 9 million dollar defensemen

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

Remember, no matter what, Subban would be gone after next year. Josi is gonna get 9 or more and we just wouldnt have the cap space to have two 9 million dollar defensemen

Do we have the cap space for two $8M centers? Of course we do. Heck, we've got almost $30M tied up on centers now! There's no definitive mathematics on when or if Subban would otherwise have been gone. Not from a Salary Cap perspective, anyway. But from a payroll hierarchy perspective, they might not have been comfortable offering Josi a "mere" $8M when Subban was making $9M. It's a matter of payroll etiquette more than cap mathematics, really. And if Subban was still good enough and there were no doubts surrounding him, they'd have had ample incentive to explore ways of managing to keep them both.

I would have understood giving Josi a hair over $9M to maintain the hierarchial order if they still had Subban. And they could have afforded to. But now they don't need to do that, Josi will be just fine with his $8M. It shouldn't be a big deal either way and the players probably don't care too much themselves, but it does set a good systematic precedent. If Ekholm checks in at around $7.5M on his next contract, are they going to be unable to pay him because you can't have $16M on two D? Of course not. Likewise $18M would not be intrinsically impossible. But you do want players to maintain their market worth and their place in the hierarchy, and Subban really tumbled badly last season both from an internal and external payroll/market perspective. You don't want to pay a $5M player $9M regardless of other considerations. But especially when other players are up for raises. Moving a bad value contract makes sense even if they could easily have managed to accommodate it from a salary cap perspective.

 

[jumb0]

I'm curious to know what kind of deals Poile had on the table as "other options". I mean Poile didn't pull trigger on those for some reason and I'd like to know why you think he should have?

All the other options involved retaining salary.

 

[OldFan]

I would say there are 2 aspects of that which hypothetically could factor into fixing his speed issues:

1) The nature of his injury last year - which we still know nothing about - no idea if or how much that might have factored into his slowness, and if or how much he might be expected to further recover from that.

2) His willingness to train differently. Subban is relatively small for an NHL D. It seems like he has historically trained to add bulk and strength to make up for his lack of size. But for a guy that sometimes lists at 210 lbs, that's not helping himself looking forward. He should probably play at 185 or 190 and try to get some agility and speed back that way. But I don't hear any suggestion he's trying some bold new training approach - and he's not usually shy about broadcasting those types of things. If he had some new fad diet/workout program there'd probably be a YouTube video about it by now.

So yeah, while I don't think it's necessarily a closed case that he couldn't fix his speed issues, there's not really a lot of reason for optimism that we know about anyway.

I know he was injured. But I also know; after seeing him on a regular basis when he was first acquired, that he was slow. Now when most all players hit 30 they start to lose a step or 2. Really fast ones tend to hang around a few years when they slow down. But slow ones tend to look really bad when they slow down further. I fear this is PK’s situation. I regret it because I like him so much but, man, last year he was so very slow. Only his smarts kept him from being embarrassed. Times have changed and speed at every position is vital. PK should do better at NJ in the slower Eastern Conference. Out west, you have to have flyers.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

I know he was injured. But I also know; after seeing him on a regular basis when he was first acquired, that he was slow. Now when most all players hit 30 they start to lose a step or 2. Really fast ones tend to hang around a few years when they slow down. But slow ones tend to look really bad when they slow down further. I fear this is PK’s situation. I regret it because I like him so much but, man, last year he was so very slow. Only his smarts kept him from being embarrassed. Times have changed and speed at every position is vital. PK should do better at NJ in the slower Eastern Conference. Out west, you have to have flyers.

I think that's where #2 on my post comes in. I agree with you that he was "slow"---ish even when we first got him. Somewhat agile on his edges, but in a straight foot race would lose to just about anybody. But even when we got him he was already locked into the mass-loaded 210 lbs. He'd have to take a radically different training approach, and shows no sign of doing that. Of course, he got a Norris finalist season with us even with that. He could fly in junior though, but I just think the reduced mass could be an approach that would really help his longevity in the league.

But he's rich and famous and everything and other people smarter than me and closer to him would probably have already told him that if it was really relevant! PK is smart too. I'm sure he has heard this and has considered his options. He must have "weighed" the options and still decided the extra bulk was what he needed most. And hasn't changed his mind... yet.

 

[PredsHead]

We will never know, but I would have to imagine it would be some heap of the "usual suspects" trying to wriggle out of their own bad contracts who were the only other teams playing. Like Edmonton or Toronto etc, but always with far far worse contract dumps coming back than Santini, or retention that would hurt us, etc.

I don't doubt the New Jersey offer was the best one Poile had. I doubt it was even close. There just aren't many teams who had $9M in budgeted cap space available and an opening for him.

But for all they saved $7.6M on trading Subban, my beef will always be that maybe they could have had more suitors for an inferior-but-cheaper player like Ellis, as $6.25M is a lot easier to fit than $9M... and $6.25M removed from the payroll is getting close to $7.6M. I doubt they even tried to move anybody else though. That's the mistake Poile made. Or rather "potential mistake"... it's possible Subban is "done" and last season was representative of his future, and it's possible Ellis and Turris will rebound to some extent and not look as woeful for us. Those are the angles that will warrant critical scrutiny for future hindsighting moreso than worrying about the value Poile got for Subban or what the other trade options might have been.

If Duchene pans out, and Ellis and Turris bounce back, it probably doesn't even matter what Subban does - he can win another Norris and it may still work out for the Preds. Or if Subban falters again like last season, folks will have to accept Poile made the right call. We'll just have to wait and see.

Again Santini was not a cap or contract dump, Poile wanted him or he would not have been included in the deal. Why would Poile take Santini if he didn't want him? He makes 24 players on the 23-man roster, so why take Santini just to risk losing him on waivers or paying him an NHL salary in the minors? New Jersey has plenty of cap space and contract spots open so there is no reason for them to dump him. New Jersey knew they would be making more deals this offseason, why "force" Poile to take Santini? Vegas, for instance, probably would have loved to have Santini as part of the Gusev trade since he is on a cheap contract and much younger than Holden and Engelland. New Jersey possibly could have even gotten another asset to take Holden's deal off their hands as well. Several teams have a need for a huge need for RHD, I cannot imagine someone wouldn't have offered something for Santini. Even if you don't think he's very good, he would be better than nothing. If New Jersey just wanted him gone that bad and couldn't find another trade partner, they could have bought him out. He's under 26 so the buyout is just 1/3 and would end being like $700k spread out over 4 years.

Why would Poile trade Ellis before his new deal even kicks in? "Hey we know you took a bit of a discount to stay here and gave up your chance to hit free agency, but sorry I really want Duchene so you're going to New Jersey." You don't think the rest of the players would have a problem with that? Pretty sure that might get brought up in Josi's negotiations and cost Poile at least a NMC and/or his tax advantage. As for Turris, we gave up three really good assets to get him less than two years ago and would have to give up more assets to move him right now or eat enough of his salary that by the time you pay his replacement you have not really saved anything. Just not worth it.

If Poile wanted Duchene, and clearly he did, than Subban was the only piece that he could move to allow that to happen, anything else would have required more moves either this year or next. Moves that would need to be made out of desperation so they either cost us more to move out a bad contract or return less on a good player. Remember the fire sale? We got terrible value for almost everyone, because everyone knew Poile was desperate to move out cash. Signing Duchene and keeping Subban would have created a very similar scenario.

 

[Gh24]

All the other options involved retaining salary.

Yes, all the other Subban deals he had on the table. I was supposed to quote the post saying he had options not involving Subban and I was curious what those were.

We will never know

Exactly. My point would have been more obvious hadn't I messed up with the quote

I was trying to make a point that the poster was making quite strong statements based on nothing but assumptions of what the players' values are, disregarding that maybe there was no one willing to pay that price. Or maybe he had one deal in place, but the other one (to reach the combined cap savings equal to Subban's) just wasn't there. Or maybe something in those deals didn't align with Poile's longer term plans. Too many variables including relationships and verbal agreements with players, their contracts, upcoming extensions, expansion draft etc.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

Again Santini was not a cap or contract dump, Poile wanted him or he would not have been included in the deal. Why would Poile take Santini if he didn't want him? He makes 24 players on the 23-man roster, so why take Santini just to risk losing him on waivers or paying him an NHL salary in the minors? New Jersey has plenty of cap space and contract spots open so there is no reason for them to dump him. New Jersey knew they would be making more deals this offseason, why "force" Poile to take Santini? Vegas, for instance, probably would have loved to have Santini as part of the Gusev trade since he is on a cheap contract and much younger than Holden and Engelland. New Jersey possibly could have even gotten another asset to take Holden's deal off their hands as well. Several teams have a need for a huge need for RHD, I cannot imagine someone wouldn't have offered something for Santini. Even if you don't think he's very good, he would be better than nothing. If New Jersey just wanted him gone that bad and couldn't find another trade partner, they could have bought him out. He's under 26 so the buyout is just 1/3 and would end being like $700k spread out over 4 years.

It's a small contract dump, but I don't believe Poile was going to be "forced" to take it. I'm sure if Poile said that under no circumstance would he accept Santini back, it wouldn't have killed the deal. Heck, I think I even suggested Santini as part of a deal with New Jersey a month or so before the trade happened too. When you look at our bottom end defenders, it can't hurt to take him back, even if he's a player New Jersey had given up on and probably would have waived in September. It doesn't mean he can't play for us. Let's face it, PK Subban was a contract dump too, right? It's not so much a derogatory term as you might be thinking. They both have contracts which exceeded the value of the player to the team, and they got moved to other teams as a result. So I'm happy calling both Subban and Santini contract dumps. It doesn't mean the other team doesn't have a use for them.

Why would Poile trade Ellis before his new deal even kicks in? "Hey we know you took a bit of a discount to stay here and gave up your chance to hit free agency, but sorry I really want Duchene so you're going to New Jersey." You don't think the rest of the players would have a problem with that? Pretty sure that might get brought up in Josi's negotiations and cost Poile at least a NMC and/or his tax advantage. As for Turris, we gave up three really good assets to get him less than two years ago and would have to give up more assets to move him right now or eat enough of his salary that by the time you pay his replacement you have not really saved anything. Just not worth it.

Poile wouldn't trade Ellis or Turris, that's clear. But you've basically just argued that the reason he wouldn't do it is due to biased/emotional thinking instead of rationally considering their value to the team on the ice. Which is fair, even an NHL GM is human, and I don't think there is anybody here who ever thought he was going to trade them. But stepping back, that's ample cap space to sign Duchene right there, and players who are inferior to Subban and have less positive impact on the team's performance. I don't expect Poile to be perfect or robotic about his job, though.

If Poile wanted Duchene, and clearly he did, than Subban was the only piece that he could move to allow that to happen, anything else would have required more moves either this year or next. Moves that would need to be made out of desperation so they either cost us more to move out a bad contract or return less on a good player. Remember the fire sale? We got terrible value for almost everyone, because everyone knew Poile was desperate to move out cash. Signing Duchene and keeping Subban would have created a very similar scenario.

Of course that's wrong. I don't understand the need to paint it as though Subban was the ONLY option to trade. That's overly complicating things. You have to imagine constraints or explanations for constraints that just don't make sense. Why do that? The reality is there were many options on the table as ways that Poile could have created space for Duchene, or of course he could also have just not signed Duchene. He had an array of options. He consciously chose the path he took to a solution. And he may very well have made the best choice. That's what he gets paid the big bucks to do. Time will tell if he made the best choice, but it certainly seems like he took one of the reasonable options available to him.

I don't know if it seems like I'm arguing against the trade/signing... I'm not... I'm actually pretty satisfied with it, all things considered. Anyway, it's going to be something we get to talk about all year, and monitor the returns on, so I'm excited about that! It definitely adds entertainment value when your team makes a bold play and takes some of these kinds of chances, and I'm glad Poile did it, and I'm going to enjoy all the retroactive nitpicking we do over the course of the new season. There are an array of characters who can turn into heroes or villains, opportunity for plot twists, it's all good fun.

 

[triggrman]

2 players struggled on defense last year and played at pretty much the same level, one makes $9M a year and one makes $6M a year. Which one do you trade?

 

[IceColdOx]

GMDP gets him to take $8 million per his usual contract wizardry. Roman knows this organization would always do right and giving him a nice raise. Team has gotten a bargain the last few years.

 

[PredsHead]

It's a small contract dump, but I don't believe Poile was going to be "forced" to take it. I'm sure if Poile said that under no circumstance would he accept Santini back, it wouldn't have killed the deal. Heck, I think I even suggested Santini as part of a deal with New Jersey a month or so before the trade happened too. When you look at our bottom end defenders, it can't hurt to take him back, even if he's a player New Jersey had given up on and probably would have waived in September. It doesn't mean he can't play for us. Let's face it, PK Subban was a contract dump too, right? It's not so much a derogatory term as you might be thinking. They both have contracts which exceeded the value of the player to the team, and they got moved to other teams as a result. So I'm happy calling both Subban and Santini contract dumps. It doesn't mean the other team doesn't have a use for them.

Yes PK was a contract dump, we wanted the cap space to do other things, so we took less than perhaps we could have to "dump" the whole contract. What about that would apply to Santini? Did they need the space, nope. Need the contract slot, no. Have too many RHDs, nope just three on the roster. Too many players, nope looks they have an open roster spot after signing Zacha.

Poile wouldn't trade Ellis or Turris, that's clear. But you've basically just argued that the reason he wouldn't do it is due to biased/emotional thinking instead of rationally considering their value to the team on the ice. Which is fair, even an NHL GM is human, and I don't think there is anybody here who ever thought he was going to trade them. But stepping back, that's ample cap space to sign Duchene right there, and players who are inferior to Subban and have less positive impact on the team's performance. I don't expect Poile to be perfect or robotic about his job, though.

What biased/emotional thinking? That wasting more assets to move Turris was a bad idea that probably wouldn't open up that much cap space in the end? That trading Ellis before his contract kicked in would cause many more problems than it "fixed"? This is not some video game or fantasy team, these are real people with real emotions and feelings that have to be factored in when making decisions.

Of course that's wrong. I don't understand the need to paint it as though Subban was the ONLY option to trade. That's overly complicating things. You have to imagine constraints or explanations for constraints that just don't make sense. Why do that? The reality is there were many options on the table as ways that Poile could have created space for Duchene, or of course he could also have just not signed Duchene. He had an array of options. He consciously chose the path he took to a solution. And he may very well have made the best choice. That's what he gets paid the big bucks to do. Time will tell if he made the best choice, but it certainly seems like he took one of the reasonable options available to him.

I don't know if it seems like I'm arguing against the trade/signing... I'm not... I'm actually pretty satisfied with it, all things considered. Anyway, it's going to be something we get to talk about all year, and monitor the returns on, so I'm excited about that! It definitely adds entertainment value when your team makes a bold play and takes some of these kinds of chances, and I'm glad Poile did it, and I'm going to enjoy all the retroactive nitpicking we do over the course of the new season. There are an array of characters who can turn into heroes or villains, opportunity for plot twists, it's all good fun.

There is a need to paint it that way, because that is reality. We needed more offense and had a stud defensemen who we got to see last year for a few games and looked ready for a chance at a big role. Who could you move out on offense to add Duchene or anyone else that wouldn't just have created another hole to fill? Bonino, nope he's our only bottom 6 lefty and we need the effort he brings every night. Turris, again no because it would have required another asset move him or retention which wouldn't really help. Moving one of the JOFA line would defeat the purpose of adding more offense. Would sort of look silly to trade Fiala for Granlund only to move Granlund to sign someone else a few months later. Why not just keep the cheaper Fiala and still sign someone? I guess you could have moved Smith, but how much value does he have and that doesn't fix the problem it just delays it to next year. So unless I am missing someone, there is no forward we could have moved who would have really helped. That just leaves the defense, since Saros and Rinne aren't going anywhere. I mean ever since we got Subban people have been saying we need to move one of the defensemen for more offense and that was before we ever saw Fabbro in Preds gold. Josi is our captain and just now finishing one of the best contracts in the league, so no chance you were moving him. Ekholm is our only shutdown guy in the Top-4 and on another great contract, so no chance you were moving him. Ellis was just resigned, is younger, cheaper, and one your alternate captains. That just leaves Subban.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

Yes PK was a contract dump, we wanted the cap space to do other things, so we took less than perhaps we could have to "dump" the whole contract. What about that would apply to Santini? Did they need the space, nope. Need the contract slot, no. Have too many RHDs, nope just three on the roster. Too many players, nope looks they have an open roster spot after signing Zacha.



What biased/emotional thinking? That wasting more assets to move Turris was a bad idea that probably wouldn't open up that much cap space in the end? That trading Ellis before his contract kicked in would cause many more problems than it "fixed"? This is not some video game or fantasy team, these are real people with real emotions and feelings that have to be factored in when making decisions.



There is a need to paint it that way, because that is reality. We needed more offense and had a stud defensemen who we got to see last year for a few games and looked ready for a chance at a big role. Who could you move out on offense to add Duchene or anyone else that wouldn't just have created another hole to fill? Bonino, nope he's our only bottom 6 lefty and we need the effort he brings every night. Turris, again no because it would have required another asset move him or retention which wouldn't really help. Moving one of the JOFA line would defeat the purpose of adding more offense. Would sort of look silly to trade Fiala for Granlund only to move Granlund to sign someone else a few months later. Why not just keep the cheaper Fiala and still sign someone? I guess you could have moved Smith, but how much value does he have and that doesn't fix the problem it just delays it to next year. So unless I am missing someone, there is no forward we could have moved who would have really helped. That just leaves the defense, since Saros and Rinne aren't going anywhere. I mean ever since we got Subban people have been saying we need to move one of the defensemen for more offense and that was before we ever saw Fabbro in Preds gold. Josi is our captain and just now finishing one of the best contracts in the league, so no chance you were moving him. Ekholm is our only shutdown guy in the Top-4 and on another great contract, so no chance you were moving him. Ellis was just resigned, is younger, cheaper, and one your alternate captains. That just leaves Subban.

Ok, cool, but I will have to break the loop because I just don't see things the same way on any of these fronts. Total disconnect, sorry. But I've explained it enough already that there's no point in taking another trip through it.

 

[KurtAngle]

I'd trade him. I kind of go by the New England Patriots strategy. Never sign one guy that will drag down the team. Josi's a very good player but I don't see him as a guy who is a key to your team, kind of like Weber was. He's 29 now and I just don't think I'd tie up a guy with a lot of money for that long.

 

[maplepred]

I kind of go by the New England Patriots strategy.

So you think the Preds should start to cheat?

 

[Dave is a killer]

So you think the Preds should start to cheat?

I think that the Preds should start to win more in the Postseason, I believe they wasted Pekka's prime years, but that is neither here nor there; just win or use 1 of the top 2 C + D to jumpstart the rebuild if Saros ain't the second coming.

 

[GoldOnGold]

So you think the Preds should start to cheat?

Can you deflate pucks?